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monsterland
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14 Jan 2011, 2:04 am

When posting, I had two choices:

1) Say something nice and supportive because you seem like a nice guy. "Your date went well", "sure you can send her your creepy packages", etc.

OR

2) Call it how I see it.

I'm not very good at combining those, so I chose 2). In my opinion, if someone does 1), they're encouraging you into a path which leads to more suffering. It's better to be blunt now and provoke some change, rather than allow you to go on the wrong path until it all blows up in your face.



grendel
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14 Jan 2011, 3:59 am

Hmm... I disagree. Honestly I would have probably reacted similarly to the way you did on all counts, so I am on the same boat there and I'm not sure how to come off "unspooky" or picking up on subtle hints that somebody wants to do something if they don't actually say so. But, I don't see how you've "totally blown it" here either from a female perspective. She told you she likes you, and that she wants to be romanced. She asked about your (from her perspective) "unusual" behavior and you explained. Sending flowers to her office is not "creepy" in my opinion... it's not an unidentified mail bomb with lipstick on it... and it's not like you haven't already gone out or that she has rejected you either at this point. If she's saying she wants to be pursued (which it sounds like) that does not mean throwing up your hands and saying "oh well, on to the next conquest" as monsterland seems to be suggesting. The easiest thing would seem to be, aside from the flowers business, ask her out again for a more "romantic" date since she wants that and see what the response is.



Grisha
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14 Jan 2011, 9:34 am

grendel wrote:
Hmm... I disagree. Honestly I would have probably reacted similarly to the way you did on all counts, so I am on the same boat there and I'm not sure how to come off "unspooky" or picking up on subtle hints that somebody wants to do something if they don't actually say so. But, I don't see how you've "totally blown it" here either from a female perspective. She told you she likes you, and that she wants to be romanced. She asked about your (from her perspective) "unusual" behavior and you explained. Sending flowers to her office is not "creepy" in my opinion... it's not an unidentified mail bomb with lipstick on it... and it's not like you haven't already gone out or that she has rejected you either at this point. If she's saying she wants to be pursued (which it sounds like) that does not mean throwing up your hands and saying "oh well, on to the next conquest" as monsterland seems to be suggesting. The easiest thing would seem to be, aside from the flowers business, ask her out again for a more "romantic" date since she wants that and see what the response is.


I kind of wondered about the "creepy" (I HATE that word, BTW, in order to be "creepy", one has to be a "creep", which I am not) flowers thing, what's she going to do? Call the police and report an unauthorized flower delivery?

As far as asking her out though, it's too late: I got a message from her this AM asking me if I wanted to go to an art opening with her this weekend :D

As usual I am probably (probably?) overthinking this, I'll just keep doing things with her and if something romantic develops, so be it, if it doesn't, I still have an amazing friend to hang out with. It's win-win anyway you look at it...



Zur-Darkstar
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14 Jan 2011, 10:20 am

I hear you on the Mythbusters marathon. I love that show also. Easy to miss a little hint. I might have done the same. I try to avoid talking too much about what I'm doing unless I'm prepared to justify the value of that activity. This goes for friends as well as dates. I am just deliberately vague about my daily activities. I'm usually trying to pin down what the other person is wanting me to do by pretending to be disinterested. Like most of my social scripts, it is sometimes effective and sometimes less so.

The flowers to the office, candies, etc. is hard to read. Some girls really want this, some don't care, and some do think it's creepy. I try to identify which type they are by observing their behavior and seeing their opinions on various subjects. For example, if a girl talks about her career or how it's hard to break the glass ceiling or some other feminist sounding remarks, then I conclude she's not as likely to be interested in "traditional" romantic techniques like flowers and gifts. This goes for other issues too. It's a bit complicated but my social skills are largely dependent observing, sorting, and filing people into categories on different issues, then recalling what things they're likely to be interested in, what words are appropriate and not, which jokes to tell, from memory. I'm *very* good at this. This is why I like the online dating sites, because they do a lot of that work for me.

Now that you know, you can either try to play this role or not. Most of what I do is fake, or it used to be whenever I was first practicing being that. There's a saying that goes "we are what we consistently pretend to be", and I believe it. I just pick which roles I want to play and which ones I don't, and go from there. If you want to be a romantic type, then give it a go. She knows about your AS, so if you screw it up but she likes you, she can attribute it to your AS and think "wow he's really making an effort"; he must be really into me. It also depends on how much and what you've said to her since then, but if you want to restart the relationship, just send her some flowers and gauge her reaction. If not, chalk it up to lessons learned. If you try and fail, then you'll at least have the practice.

My guess is that "spooked" probably means she picked up on your anxiety and/or lack of confidence. These things are very easy for NTs to spot, and everything I've ever heard or read on the subject suggests that women are attracted to confidence more than almost anything else. The key thing I have learned (and I learned this for job interviews), is that if it makes you nervous to say or do something, DON'T DO IT. If you're trying to hide something negative, it's usually worse to nervously gloss over it than it is to just state the fact plainly and follow with a confident statement of how worthy you are despite this limitation.



Grisha
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14 Jan 2011, 11:08 am

Zur-Darkstar wrote:
I hear you on the Mythbusters marathon. I love that show also. Easy to miss a little hint. I might have done the same. I try to avoid talking too much about what I'm doing unless I'm prepared to justify the value of that activity. This goes for friends as well as dates. I am just deliberately vague about my daily activities. I'm usually trying to pin down what the other person is wanting me to do by pretending to be disinterested. Like most of my social scripts, it is sometimes effective and sometimes less so.

The flowers to the office, candies, etc. is hard to read. Some girls really want this, some don't care, and some do think it's creepy. I try to identify which type they are by observing their behavior and seeing their opinions on various subjects. For example, if a girl talks about her career or how it's hard to break the glass ceiling or some other feminist sounding remarks, then I conclude she's not as likely to be interested in "traditional" romantic techniques like flowers and gifts. This goes for other issues too. It's a bit complicated but my social skills are largely dependent observing, sorting, and filing people into categories
on different issues, then recalling what things they're likely to be interested in, what words are appropriate and not, which jokes to tell, from memory. I'm *very* good at this. This is why I like the online dating sites, because they do a lot of that work for me.

Now that you know, you can either try to play this role or not. Most of what I do is fake, or it used to be whenever I was first practicing being that. There's a saying that goes "we are what we consistently pretend to be", and I believe it. I just pick which roles I want to play and which ones I don't, and go from there. If you want to be a romantic type, then give it a go. She knows about your AS, so if you screw it up but she likes you, she can attribute it to your AS and think "wow he's really making an effort"; he must be really into me. It also depends on how much and what you've said to her since then, but if you want to restart the relationship, just send her some flowers and gauge her reaction. If not, chalk it up to lessons learned. If you try and fail, then you'll at least have the practice.

My guess is that "spooked" probably means she picked up on your anxiety and/or lack of confidence. These things are very easy for NTs to spot, and everything I've ever heard or read on the subject suggests that women are attracted to confidence more than almost anything else. The key thing I have learned (and I learned this for job interviews), is that if it makes you nervous to say or do something, DON'T DO IT. If you're trying to hide something negative, it's usually worse to nervously gloss over it than it is to just state the fact plainly and follow with a confident statement of how worthy you are despite this limitation.


Thanks for this, I think your spot-on in most cases.

In this particular case, with this particular (and spectacular!) girl, here are the lessons learned:

Disclosing my AS was not a deal breaker, in fact it enhanced our relationship, now we know where we stand and I am free to be myself, which is actually a huge confidence booster. If disclosing my AS is a deal breaker, then we aren't right for each other anyway. There are women out there who "get it". :)

In the message preceding the one I excerpted, I told her that I needed to be told in words what she needed. She responded by telling me exactly what she liked, there is no guesswork to be done. Other girls are different, but this particular case clearly demonstrates that it doesn't hurt to ask.

There is no question of "restarting" this relationship, it hasn't ended. In fact we've exchanged two emails so far this morning and she asked me if I wanted to go to an art opening with her this weekend (which unfortunately I can't due to family commitments).

And if I can rant for a minute, I am getting completely f*cking sick of seeing the word "creepy" around her, I am NOT an creep, nor are most of the other Aspie guys around here. The ones who are creeps are pretty obvious. In fact, if creep can be defined as someone who persists even after a woman has told him that she's not interested, I would suggest that Aspies in general are LESS creepy in this regard. All it takes is one unanswered email, or perceived rejection and I am outta there without ever looking back...



Moog
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14 Jan 2011, 1:31 pm

I think everyone has slightly different ideas about what creepy means.


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Grisha
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14 Jan 2011, 2:27 pm

Moog wrote:
I think everyone has slightly different ideas about what creepy means.


Yes, I believe so too.

I think what I was referring to in my post was "stalker" creepy.

Then there is "PUA" creepy.

I get really annoyed/offended when people (including myself) are carelessly lumped into these categories without the slightest bit of evidence to support it.

But the thing I wrestle with the most in my particular case is "Crispin Glover" creepy.

Since I don't stalk and am extremely polite/respectful/shy towards women, this may be the sort of vibe that "spooks" women who meet me in person (any resemblence?):

Image Image

On the other hand, all may not be lost in that case either :wink:

Image



monsterland
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14 Jan 2011, 4:42 pm

You don't look like Crispin Glover. You look like Ray Romano.

This may explain why she appears to remain interested in you. Your behavior may be odd, but your face tells her a different story.