Saddam Hussein's Last Letter (let's analyze and discuss)

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MCalavera
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28 Jan 2011, 1:51 am

Natty_Boh wrote:
1. Hussein sounds like a windbag.
2. Yes, actions speak louder than words.
3. Christ's 'final' action was to die on the Cross for us.
4. Why do you consistently define yourself against Christianity? What are you actually *for*?


Saddam's final action was to die for his beloved country. Take that! :D

As for your last question, I will answer that in a new thread that I will most likely create soon concerning why I left the faith.



ruveyn
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28 Jan 2011, 7:39 am

MCalavera wrote:
Natty_Boh wrote:
1. Hussein sounds like a windbag.
2. Yes, actions speak louder than words.
3. Christ's 'final' action was to die on the Cross for us.
4. Why do you consistently define yourself against Christianity? What are you actually *for*?


Saddam's final action was to die for his beloved country. Take that! :D

.


Saddam died for his crimes.

ruveyn



Natty_Boh
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28 Jan 2011, 7:56 am

MCalavera wrote:
Natty_Boh wrote:
1. Hussein sounds like a windbag.
2. Yes, actions speak louder than words.
3. Christ's 'final' action was to die on the Cross for us.
4. Why do you consistently define yourself against Christianity? What are you actually *for*?


Saddam's final action was to die for his beloved country. Take that! :D


No, he was executed by his country, for atrocities against his country.

MCalavera wrote:
As for your last question, I will answer that in a new thread that I will most likely create soon concerning why I left the faith.


I'd be interested in reading it. Because right now, it doesn't seem like you've in fact left. You've just moved your argument from inside the house to the sidewalk outside. ;)



MCalavera
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28 Jan 2011, 9:09 am

ruveyn wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Natty_Boh wrote:
1. Hussein sounds like a windbag.
2. Yes, actions speak louder than words.
3. Christ's 'final' action was to die on the Cross for us.
4. Why do you consistently define yourself against Christianity? What are you actually *for*?


Saddam's final action was to die for his beloved country. Take that! :D

.


Saddam died for his crimes.

ruveyn


No kidding ...



MCalavera
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28 Jan 2011, 9:13 am

Natty_Boh wrote:
Quote:
Saddam's final action was to die for his beloved country. Take that! :D


No, he was executed by his country, for atrocities against his country.


Read his letter of love and compassion for his people. How can you believe he died for atrocities against his country? Tsk tsk.

As the letter implies, he died for his country. And he's now with Allah in Paradise.

***

If you thought the above was ridiculous, then why should I take what the Bible says about Jesus' death for our sins seriously? Why can't we just accept the fact that Jesus died because he was seen as a dangerous person that had to be punished (just like Saddam Hussein)?



ruveyn
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28 Jan 2011, 10:13 am

MCalavera wrote:

No kidding ...


I don't kid around. You do.

ruveyn



Natty_Boh
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28 Jan 2011, 10:51 am

MCalavera wrote:
why should I take what the Bible says about Jesus' death for our sins seriously?


Has anyone asked you to? You're the one who began this thread; you're the one raising the question.

MCalavera wrote:
Why can't we just accept the fact that Jesus died because he was seen as a dangerous person that had to be punished (just like Saddam Hussein)?


Of course that was why He was killed. Hard to argue the general point. But He was killed for what He might cause (Roman reprisal against Israel), not for what He'd already done. If Jesus was just a man - which is your position, yes? - it ends there. No comparision to Hussein possible.

(Edited on a reread of the OP. They help!)



naturalplastic
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28 Jan 2011, 11:15 am

The letter shows that he was an able politician.

He starts off sounding like a poor man's Churchill ( this is our finest hour sorta stuff) and then drifts into sounding almost like Lincoln- talking about forgiveness.

The latter part is not quite as elequent as lincoln (I assume its a translation from Arabic) , but- it does almost move you- until you realize who saying this stuff.

A guy who fed living people to wood chiping machines has a lot of gall offering other people "forgiveness".

And ofcourse God is everywhere in the subtext. He is as pious as any American politician.
As with George W. Bush "God is not neutral". Both Hussien and Bush strongly implied (without coming out and saying it) that God was on their side. How God could be on both of their sides is a question for another thread.

If I were a deposed despot toppled by a foriegn invader, but about to be executed by my own people I would probably blame it all on the foriegn invader and cast myself as a matyr for my country as well.
So id give his letter a solid "B-". If I were a deposed despot in a dungeon awating the noose Id be hard pressed to write as well.

But the OP is trying to make an analogy connecting Saddam Hussien with God. He's saying that since God talks like Saddam Hussien then God must be as bad as Saddam Hussien.

I dont see how that logically follows.



MCalavera
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29 Jan 2011, 6:36 am

Natty_Boh wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
why should I take what the Bible says about Jesus' death for our sins seriously?


Has anyone asked you to? You're the one who began this thread; you're the one raising the question.

MCalavera wrote:
Why can't we just accept the fact that Jesus died because he was seen as a dangerous person that had to be punished (just like Saddam Hussein)?


Of course that was why He was killed. Hard to argue the general point. But He was killed for what He might cause (Roman reprisal against Israel), not for what He'd already done. If Jesus was just a man - which is your position, yes? - it ends there. No comparision to Hussein possible.

(Edited on a reread of the OP. They help!)


First of all, I wasn't even going towards Jesus in this thread. It was really about Yahweh more than about Jesus. But when you mentioned the cross, you were basically expecting me to take for granted the fantasy that Jesus did something special for us all on that cross, so I had to use the language of irony to say that Saddam did something special for his beloved country (just as he implied in his letter).

But anyway, you went to the cross, but what about Yahweh's actions in the OT. I can definitely see a divine version of Saddam Hussein in there. Words of love but actions of hatred and cruelty.



MCalavera
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29 Jan 2011, 6:39 am

naturalplastic wrote:
The letter shows that he was an able politician.

He starts off sounding like a poor man's Churchill ( this is our finest hour sorta stuff) and then drifts into sounding almost like Lincoln- talking about forgiveness.

The latter part is not quite as elequent as lincoln (I assume its a translation from Arabic) , but- it does almost move you- until you realize who saying this stuff.

A guy who fed living people to wood chiping machines has a lot of gall offering other people "forgiveness".

And ofcourse God is everywhere in the subtext. He is as pious as any American politician.
As with George W. Bush "God is not neutral". Both Hussien and Bush strongly implied (without coming out and saying it) that God was on their side. How God could be on both of their sides is a question for another thread.

If I were a deposed despot toppled by a foriegn invader, but about to be executed by my own people I would probably blame it all on the foriegn invader and cast myself as a matyr for my country as well.
So id give his letter a solid "B-". If I were a deposed despot in a dungeon awating the noose Id be hard pressed to write as well.

But the OP is trying to make an analogy connecting Saddam Hussien with God. He's saying that since God talks like Saddam Hussien then God must be as bad as Saddam Hussien.

I dont see how that logically follows.


That wasn't my argument exactly.

It was more about how Yahweh's actions in the Bible contradict his words of love and forgiveness (similarly to Saddam Hussein).

I never meant to imply that any person preaching love is automatically like Saddam Hussein/Hitler/Yahweh.



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29 Jan 2011, 11:26 am

MCalavera wrote:
Natty_Boh wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
why should I take what the Bible says about Jesus' death for our sins seriously?


Has anyone asked you to? You're the one who began this thread; you're the one raising the question.

MCalavera wrote:
Why can't we just accept the fact that Jesus died because he was seen as a dangerous person that had to be punished (just like Saddam Hussein)?


Of course that was why He was killed. Hard to argue the general point. But He was killed for what He might cause (Roman reprisal against Israel), not for what He'd already done. If Jesus was just a man - which is your position, yes? - it ends there. No comparision to Hussein possible.

(Edited on a reread of the OP. They help!)


First of all, I wasn't even going towards Jesus in this thread. It was really about Yahweh more than about Jesus. But when you mentioned the cross, you were basically expecting me to take for granted the fantasy that Jesus did something special for us all on that cross, so I had to use the language of irony to say that Saddam did something special for his beloved country (just as he implied in his letter).

But anyway, you went to the cross, but what about Yahweh's actions in the OT. I can definitely see a divine version of Saddam Hussein in there. Words of love but actions of hatred and cruelty.


Fair 'nough - I was the one who "went there". Why I did, though, is that I *am* Christian, and you'd asked for Christian input. And it's hard to separate out Old Testament from New, in the sense that all the events and themes of the OT come together and are given new and fuller meaning in the NT, on Calvary. The Old Testament without the New is definitely a harsher read (though there were many obvious acts of love as well) - but where you see God as a divine version of Hussein, I'm seeing Hussein as a mockery of God. Which is a hallmark of the devil, not of God.



MCalavera
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29 Jan 2011, 9:39 pm

Natty_Boh wrote:
Fair 'nough - I was the one who "went there". Why I did, though, is that I *am* Christian, and you'd asked for Christian input. And it's hard to separate out Old Testament from New, in the sense that all the events and themes of the OT come together and are given new and fuller meaning in the NT, on Calvary. The Old Testament without the New is definitely a harsher read (though there were many obvious acts of love as well) - but where you see God as a divine version of Hussein, I'm seeing Hussein as a mockery of God. Which is a hallmark of the devil, not of God.


But even Saddam Hussein had obvious acts of love in his life! So why do you have no problem thinking of Saddam Hussein as some evil man who harmed innocent people, but you don't think the same about Yahweh?

Is it the Christian bias?



Natty_Boh
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29 Jan 2011, 10:17 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Natty_Boh wrote:
Fair 'nough - I was the one who "went there". Why I did, though, is that I *am* Christian, and you'd asked for Christian input. And it's hard to separate out Old Testament from New, in the sense that all the events and themes of the OT come together and are given new and fuller meaning in the NT, on Calvary. The Old Testament without the New is definitely a harsher read (though there were many obvious acts of love as well) - but where you see God as a divine version of Hussein, I'm seeing Hussein as a mockery of God. Which is a hallmark of the devil, not of God.


But even Saddam Hussein had obvious acts of love in his life! So why do you have no problem thinking of Saddam Hussein as some evil man who harmed innocent people, but you don't think the same about Yahweh?

Is it the Christian bias?


Yep. Pretty much. See my last post.

One not-so-minor difference for you: the Old Testament lays out the whole story. All of the evidence either way. Whatever conclusion you then draw, you're going on the basis of what God chose to have written down. Going by Hussein's "testament", you'd think his life was all rainbows and kittens.



ruveyn
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30 Jan 2011, 6:15 am

MCalavera wrote:
But even Saddam Hussein had obvious acts of love in his life! So why do you have no problem thinking of Saddam Hussein as some evil man who harmed innocent people, but you don't think the same about Yahweh?



1. Saddam was a great dancer.

2. Yaweh is not people.

ruveyn



MCalavera
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30 Jan 2011, 7:14 am

ruveyn wrote:
Saddam was a great dancer.


You must know from personal experience, don't you? :lol:



techstepgenr8tion
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30 Jan 2011, 2:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Saddam was a great dancer.


Lead dance perhaps.