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PatrickNeville
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06 Feb 2011, 1:13 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
PatrickNeville wrote:

Sometimes the police even refuse to investigate and get things and total media and political blackouts happen.

http://www.holliedemandsjustice.org/about_hollie_greig


That's horrifying, but not surprising. I've heard similar stories. Many include spousal abuse.


that was in my city as well. people campaign on the streets for this handing out leaflets, and campaigners are arrested with bogus chargers by the police.

people interview politicians and slip this in and they decline to comment every single time.

it is beyond messed up :(

if you can, feel free to look into it a wee bit and share it around.


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06 Feb 2011, 2:57 am

Wombat wrote:
There is another form of slavery in the US.

People are thrown into privately owned prisons where they do real commercial work like making furniture and acting as call center operators but are paid almost nothing.

In the last California wild fires they were bringing in teams of trained prisoners to fight the fires.
The local authorities only had to pay $1 an hour per man.
The prisoner would get 25 cents.

America has more people in prison than the rest of the world put together.
Welcome to the new slavery.


The assrape and low paying forced labor is what keeps me from killing NTs and selling marijuna out of fear of going to jail. Its a deterent for me to doing bad things to bad people. :roll: :P


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06 Feb 2011, 4:16 am

http://library2.usask.ca/theses/availab ... 08-133510/

There are many laws that protect vulnerable children from sexual abuse, (ie, sexual exploitation). The :Protection of Children involved in Prostution act, grants the police power to apprehend children who are at risk of the sex trade, or similar lifestyle, and taken to a safe house to provide saftey from these pimps. (There are laws for the Pimps themselves for child abuse).



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06 Feb 2011, 6:06 am

xenon13 wrote:
Israel and the protectorate of Kosovo are leading centres of sex slave trafficking which explains why the traffickers can do no wrong... after all, "he who blesses them shall be blessed and he who curses them shall be cursed".


How about some evidence for that.

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06 Feb 2011, 8:06 am

"They broke the law" so they should go to prison.

I live in Australia which started as a prison colony. Steal a loaf of bread and get sentenced to seven years in Australia.
But they didn't go to prison. "Rich guys" were given huge land grants in Australia and then given convict men and women to work the land for them.

Australian history says that Australia was started because of the American war of independence.

But then I thought "Where were the British prisons in America"?

THERE WEREN'T ANY! Because the British shipped their convicts to America and SOLD them as indentured servants or slaves.

That's right. America was built on slavery but it wasn't just black slavery. In fact there were cases where free black men owned white slaves.



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06 Feb 2011, 11:40 am

Sadly enough America was built on slavery,

And murder too.

So many native Americans were mascaraed by the European settlers.

Sure we gave them thanks giving as a sign of respect. We killed off lots of them afterwards though.

And people celebrate that today as a holiday since nobody seems to really question the truth :( :( :(


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06 Feb 2011, 1:56 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Wombat wrote:
There is another form of slavery in the US.

People are thrown into privately owned prisons where they do real commercial work like making furniture and acting as call center operators but are paid almost nothing.

In the last California wild fires they were bringing in teams of trained prisoners to fight the fires.
The local authorities only had to pay $1 an hour per man.
The prisoner would get 25 cents.

America has more people in prison than the rest of the world put together.
Welcome to the new slavery.


They're in prison because they broke the law. If you ask me, they get off easy.


I think that while prison should not be a holiday camp, it should not be pure hell. I hold a view that while prisoners should be made to work in jail but they do need to be protected from abuses such as being assigned dangerous work which would be illegal for a free man to enter into by choice.

I think it was Dostoevsky who wrote "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons"


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06 Feb 2011, 3:19 pm

Woodpecker wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Wombat wrote:
There is another form of slavery in the US.

People are thrown into privately owned prisons where they do real commercial work like making furniture and acting as call center operators but are paid almost nothing.

In the last California wild fires they were bringing in teams of trained prisoners to fight the fires.
The local authorities only had to pay $1 an hour per man.
The prisoner would get 25 cents.

America has more people in prison than the rest of the world put together.
Welcome to the new slavery.


They're in prison because they broke the law. If you ask me, they get off easy.


I think that while prison should not be a holiday camp, it should not be pure hell. I hold a view that while prisoners should be made to work in jail but they do need to be protected from abuses such as being assigned dangerous work which would be illegal for a free man to enter into by choice.

I think it was Dostoevsky who wrote "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons"


We can agree on this point.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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06 Feb 2011, 3:20 pm

Wombat wrote:
"They broke the law" so they should go to prison.

I live in Australia which started as a prison colony. Steal a loaf of bread and get sentenced to seven years in Australia.
But they didn't go to prison. "Rich guys" were given huge land grants in Australia and then given convict men and women to work the land for them.

Australian history says that Australia was started because of the American war of independence.

But then I thought "Where were the British prisons in America"?

THERE WEREN'T ANY! Because the British shipped their convicts to America and SOLD them as indentured servants or slaves.

That's right. America was built on slavery but it wasn't just black slavery. In fact there were cases where free black men owned white slaves.


No need for a history lesson.


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06 Feb 2011, 3:23 pm

"The rich are not like you and me."

While most strive for money, the rich have only power as a goal.

Power can be used, shared, and can control.

What people want opens many doors that otherwise would be locked.

Being an insider, being above the law and protected, is a common goal.

This view is common among the elected, the rich, and those with some power.

In the old New York mob, killing someone for the boss and you were a made man.

The same principal works on many levels. Shared crime is a bond.

The beat cop sees many hookers, but burglers, robbers, rank higher. Sometimes there are complaints, so what do you do? Run in the hookers working J Street, or have a talk with their pimp about them leaving J Street, back to K street, and make me look good, without messing up your business?

That is worth a few hundred to any pimp, it is cheaper than bail and lawyers.

Now the question of, how old is that girl? Is answered, old enough, and available. Girl time is cheaper than hundreds.

One step up, someone running a house with six girls, still wants police protection. Some situations calling the police is the best idea. Never can tell when that might happen, so some money goes upstream to the Desk Sargent, the Captian, the Chief, and any nosey City Councilmen. Bars, brothels, gambling, have long kept good relations with government.

So the Mayor has a fishing camp, way private, and wants some company for the weekend. The City Councilman can fix him up. Girls in the office will blackmail you, he is too well known to pick them off the streets, and here comes power, the Mayor said he wanted a young blond.

She is delivered by unmarked police car, is the little sister of a girl working the streets, not a virgin, and is twelve. The car drops her off, and leaves, and we now own the Mayor.

The Mayor was put in office by some rich and powerful people, and he owes favors. Sometimes they get together to plan the future, hosted by a very rich man with a country house. They want the Mayor to bring party favors.

Picked up in a closed van, driven for several hours, a group of children are delivered to the party. What parents they have have police records, family and friends of the family have shared their beds, they know no one, or even what State they are in, and there is some money in it for them.

The rich are different, they can buy anything, they also live in fear, buying protection in the system, cash does not work, shared crime is a bond that does. When everyone involved has equal guilt, no one will talk. They also can suppress reports, lose papers, and pressure people.

On the bottom end people facing jail given the choice of sending their children to parties, will avoid jail. If the children talk, their own parents will claim they are lying, that they were at home.

The system can be gamed, and there are many forms of blackmail.

Incest is common, more common than homosexuals. Parents swap children, meet others, and form a network. Incest has a bad name, but shared crime among ten families, becomes a culture. They have safe people their children can be with. They need it, for sexually active children continue on their own.

Children are taught very young to hide their privates, and not be caught masterbating, more things can be added to the hidden list.

It has all been going on for a long time, The Greeks and Romans were very open about their boys, and Sherlock Holmes collected street urchins.

Every major city had a park, street, district, where young flesh waited for offers. It is not some newly discovered modern problem.

One problem is the laws, America, no one has sex before eighteen, in Mexico, it is twelve, and no one pays much attention to laws. From the records of the church, priests like boys of eight. That fits with Greco-Roman tradition.

I am more concerned with being governed by organized crime. This same government that keeps discovering problems, passing more laws, when we have laws covering the same, and putting out press releases.

90% of child sex is within the family. If it comes to light it is dealt with in family court, where the goal is keeping families together. The other 10% is mostly friends of the family, neighbors, babysitters, clergy, teachers, and politicians. As a minor was involved all records are sealed.

From Kinsey, Masters and Johnson, we know incest is less common among the poor and minorities, and becomes more common in white upper class families. White upper class are also the leading producers of kiddieporn. Marketing videos, this act can play at your house.

Their motive seems to be having the social and political power to get away with it.



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06 Feb 2011, 3:24 pm

sillycat wrote:
http://library2.usask.ca/theses/available/etd-09172008-133510/

There are many laws that protect vulnerable children from sexual abuse, (ie, sexual exploitation). The :Protection of Children involved in Prostution act, grants the police power to apprehend children who are at risk of the sex trade, or similar lifestyle, and taken to a safe house to provide saftey from these pimps. (There are laws for the Pimps themselves for child abuse).


The point of the article is that those laws aren't actually protecting these girls as well as they should. Part of the reason is because often times these girls aren't discovered until they're adults. By then, they aren't 'abused children' under the law. They're prostitutes... and in most states prostitution is illegal.

The Johns aren't caught as often as the prostitutes, either. When they are caught, they often have cover stories to protect them.

Simple solution in my opinion? Legalize prostitution.


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07 Feb 2011, 1:58 am

Vice Laws, a way of putting a private tax on human behavior.

Drugs, drink, prostitution, gambling, all lead to paying off police or lawyers.

There is no place on the tax form for earnings from vice.

Making things illegal also is a form of price supports.

Wiskey could sell for the same price as gas, at a profit.

A 60 pound bale of pot would be profitable at $7.

$100 a day would be good wages for girls just being girls.

In Japan, age of consent is 13, prostitution is legal, and school girls make a lot of money. None of them pay taxes. They do not pay off the police, or have pimps.

A friend just back from China told of being in the hotel lobby early, watching all of the girls going off to school. There were hundreds, and the hotel staff and police only made sure they were safe. It was an upscale business hotel, the girls were well paid, it pumped a lot of money into the local economy. Almost all the girls were neatly dressed in their Middle and High School uniforms.

In Asia, most of the money goes to those who do the job. I am sure there is a cover story, all of the girls spent the night with another.

The girls are not sold on the street, as they charge a month's wages for a factory worker.

Asians view it about the same as Americans view the girls spending the night, weekend, with another. I have been the driver, thirteen, made up beautiful, the pickup, both in the back seat making no noise, then running from the car up to the bedroom, then taking a bath together, and back to the bedroom. I was downstairs, I heard no voices, I know nothing.

I knew what was going on, the other parents knew, the girls knew we knew, and it was allowed. Coming downstairs, they were proper and well behaved girls.

Asian girls taking a cab to a five star hotel, showing up at school on time, is treated about the same.

If the social intent is to protect the girls, the Asian model seems best.

I see nothing wrong with the American Plan. It keeps them safe and lets them explore some new and powerful feelings. Once puberty hits girls are going to do something about it. Telling them to wait till they are eighteen does not work.

Girls who were not allowed sleepovers spend years masterbating, then turned boy crazy, and it mostly turns out bad, as they have not developed their social and sexual beings. Overly protective parents turn out defenseless girls.

Overly restrictive laws, abstinence education, do not work. Do nothing for five years after puberty is not going to happen.

The age of consent works against girls. If she consents, and is unhappy with the result, she can only claim Felony Rape. Being involved in sex strips her of all other legal rights.

A Chinese girl working the hotel can tell the police a ring was stolen from her purse, or money, and they treat it like the crime it is. A Japanese girl treated roughly can file Assult Charges. Why she was there is not the issue.

Our laws, underage, child molesting, are a set up for blackmail. As there is no evidence involved, there can be no defense. It is just like being tried for Witchcraft. Child sexual abuse has become standard in divorce actions. Once, maybe, but telling the court you witnessed it for five years and did nothing? Using the one toilet in the house while a three year old is taking a bath is a whole list of felonies.

The laws we have do not protect the children we have, or take into account their behavior.



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07 Feb 2011, 11:00 am

Inventor wrote:
In Japan, age of consent is 13, prostitution is legal, and school girls make a lot of money. None of them pay taxes. They do not pay off the police, or have pimps.


That's incorrect. Sexual age of consent in Japan applies to sex between a certain age range (~+ - 5yrs). Aka an 18yrd old with a 14 yrd old .. fine. A 26yr old with a 13 yrd old? Thats illegal and the jail sentence is severe. Not to mention they get their pictures posted all over the place for further social humiliation/warning. The schoolgirls thing is usually adult women dressing up as schoolgirls or actual schoolgirls who legally (and socially acceptable) go on dates with older men and get paid in return.. but there's no sex of any kind involved, its a purely social encounter.

A few years back Tokyo police busted a child sex ring run by schoolgirls believe it or not. They were using their phones to do a form of 'sexting' and the men who would hire them would send a picture of a high denomination Yen bill or text back the name of the icon on the bills to state his payment offer...and they would meet and have sex. These were 8~15yrs olds..and their phone records got dozens of adult men serving long jail sentences.

Quote:
A friend just back from China told of being in the hotel lobby early, watching all of the girls going off to school. There were hundreds, and the hotel staff and police only made sure they were safe. It was an upscale business hotel, the girls were well paid, it pumped a lot of money into the local economy. Almost all the girls were neatly dressed in their Middle and High School uniforms.


Not surprising giving China's insane levels of corruption and gov. elite power.

Quote:
In Asia, most of the money goes to those who do the job. I am sure there is a cover story, all of the girls spent the night with another.

The girls are not sold on the street, as they charge a month's wages for a factory worker.


Maybe those who are extremely lucky and are being prostituted to the wealthy/elite market. The great majority of child prostitutes in asia receive little to no money at all and are worked to death (literally) as it is easy and cheap to get replacements

Quote:
Once puberty hits girls are going to do something about it. Telling them to wait till they are eighteen does not work.

Overly restrictive laws, abstinence education, do not work. Do nothing for five years after puberty is not going to happen.


On this I agree.

Quote:
The laws we have do not protect the children we have, or take into account their behavior.


Agreed. Also the law is not set up to punish those who are predators. Its really stupid to punish a 19yr old for having sex with a 15-17yr old.. its inside an acceptable age range and its not predation. However, a 50yr old with a 16yrd old? That's definitely a sexual predator and why they give them 2 to 5yr sentences is beyond understanding. If it was me I'd toss them into a prison populated by homosexuals serving light sentences (who are in that prison because they volunteer for the program) and hook up the security cameras to a pay per view system. It'd pay the entire prison system running costs.



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08 Feb 2011, 7:37 am

If the law sees no differance between having sex with someone and murdering them, it leads to murder.

In Louisiana, mandatory life for armed robbery, led to all witnesses being killed.

While we know 25,000 a year are murdered, the body was found, 75,000 just vanish. Your views on jail would raise that number.

If two years for sex with a minor was raised to twenty, more minors would vanish.

If eighteen is fair game for all, 17 3/4 should not be treated worse than murder. Most murderers, by the way, are out in seven years.

She said she was eighteen, but was sixteen, is a setup for blackmail. There is only one way to get rid of a blackmailer.

Laws should not cause more problems.

All reports say that 99% of juvenile sex happens in the home and close community.

While most places have a two year age exemption, if her birthday falls a week before his, he becomes a felon.

As for pimps strutting down the street with a naked ten year old on a leash, we have laws. I am sure it would make national news, I have not heard of the case.

The law is to protect children, your desire to watch homosexual rape would not protect children.

As for being sold, or charging, all reports say that is rare. After years of a witch hunt, no evidence has surfaced of any large scale child prostitution ring. An exception would be made for the area rich and political, who often use their power instead of money.

I do not believe everything I read. Politicians have pages on the internet of their convictions. Republicans and Democrats score about equal. Much more than teachers, ministers, which leads me to believe politics is a dirty game, and they were set up. I am sure they were mostly guilty, it is a power thing. There seems to be no equal list of child pimps.

Children are exploited, mostly in the home by parents, siblings, and close relatives. The next circle is babysitters, teachers, ministers. Politicians seem to lead the pack of outsiders. They do get access to social services reports, and can make all your problems go away for a favor.

They got where they are by doing favors for the rich and powerful, and gaming the system. A welfare mother who's children are not virgins is an easy mark. Medical reports are sent to social services. Pimps do not have that kind of access.

Parents do trade children, many small local networks. Everyone finds social networks useful, they do too. Often they gather through some splinter church group. Dressing up the children for church takes on a whole new meaning.

Another supply for the politically connected is adoption. People with a new baby often want to adopt an abused girl of twelve who has been used for sex for years, whipped, wound up behind bars, as a baby sitter, maid, sex toy. As she is "At Risk", she can be home schooled till eighteen. She is not allowed to leave the house, and will go back to jail if she does not obey. A few trips to the celler and she learns to behave. They have to be strict, it is for her own good.

While pimps who traffic in child prostitution should be hunted down, it takes no new laws. That is illegal. It is also a very small part of the whole problem.

With one quarter of children saying the were sexually used, and one in seven saying it was daddy, there is no way to put that many in jail, or to find good homes for the children.

Family Court deals with this every day, and the goal is keeping families together. Kids who tell get sent back to the same house, and life can get worse.

Life in prison for daddy is not going to improve some little girls life. Eating oatmeal while her little sister gets McDonalds and pizza, soon shows her the error of her ways. All she can do is say she lied about daddy, it was something she saw on tv, and she knows how to apoligise to daddy.

Before the crash families would move across country, the girl would change her story, "After daddy put his penis in me, then mommie put her penis in me." she would get a new bike, or even a pony.

This is human nature, a social problem long known, and there is not a legal answer. The best Family Court can do is put a stop to abuse, without the consent of the abused.

It runs deep, it was the same a hundred years ago, except from age six they worked six twelves at the factory, or on the farm, where someone else took their wages, orphans were gathered and sold, as farm stock or maids. They worked for food.

The worst was being sent to an orphanage, kept locked up, and one priest said he had three boys a week for twenty three years. That was fairly recent in Ireland, Canada had another big case. The nuns in Ireland ran a commercial laundry with their girls. The nuns did less sex, they were more into the whip.

The US Army put ten to twelve year old drummer boys in the front lines. They lead every battle of the civil war.

Child labor laws, mandatory education till fifteen, did a lot of good. By WWII you could only enlist at sixteen. Viet Nam most of the troops were nineteen. Drafted at eighteen. 68,000 dead.

Europe has a child allowance, enough that they will be fed, clothed, educated, and get health care. Many children in America do not get that much. Even with food stamps there are many who go to bed hungry.

More children live in poverty than any other group. Poverty and hunger are the root causes of child prostitution. The old, "Take a girl out to dinner, expect sex in return," is reality. It is the only thing children can do to get money, food, shelter, it is survival sex.

If the intent of the law is to protect the defenseless, we are doing a rotten job.



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08 Feb 2011, 1:26 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
They're in prison because they broke the law. If you ask me, they get off easy.


What a wantonly uncritical statement.

First of all, "they broke the law," covers a vast spectrum of behaviour. But more importantly, no where in law does it say that the State is entitled to profit from a prisoner's labour. The law entitles the State to imprison the offender. It is in the State's best interest to offer incentives to offenders to provide them with skills with which to reintegrate in society after release. But nowhere does the state acquire the privilege to compel and offender's labour or to exploit that labour.

If the legislature passes an Act that imposes a punishment of "penal servitude" for a term of years, so be it. But let us see if such an Act could survive constitutional scrutiny.


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14 Feb 2011, 5:16 pm

Dantac wrote:
Inventor wrote:
In Japan, age of consent is 13, prostitution is legal, and school girls make a lot of money. None of them pay taxes. They do not pay off the police, or have pimps.


A few years back Tokyo police busted a child sex ring run by schoolgirls believe it or not. They were using their phones to do a form of 'sexting' and the men who would hire them would send a picture of a high denomination Yen bill or text back the name of the icon on the bills to state his payment offer...and they would meet and have sex. These were 8~15yrs olds..and their phone records got dozens of adult men serving long jail sentences.

So the Tokyo police do their job. Or half of it. Again it is who has access to children, and these schoolgirls were selling girls of eight? Who can get them out of the house, big sisters? Who introduced them to the business, supplied the phones, approved the payoff, and delivered the goods?

I am sure the girls learned their lesson, Perhaps had their phones taken away for a month, teaching them that selling their little sisters, and leaving a record of the transaction, was wrong.

Parks, zoos, cafes, shopping malls, the goods can be shown, no records,
and the business continues.

It is supply side market driven, only those with the goods can sell.

It compares to a drug market, where only the buyers are arrested.

If caught, sellers are sent to their room to sleep on their money mattress, perhaps grounded for a whole month. Buyers being harshly punished only drives up the price.

Those who use prepaid disposable cell phones think it was worth $30 to be untraceable.

As for young girls dating older men without sex, it happens. They keep most of their clothes on and are just tied up and hung from ropes. Schoolgirl bondage is big in Japan.

Cracked did several articles, Japan has huge schoolgirl gangs, and for club fundraisers girls that would have been beaten up by the gang, burned with cigarettes, have the option of being sold for torture, showing gang loyality.

Being beaten by the whole gang, burned with cigarettes, branded, is common in American school gangs. After that they are new members, and
and after having sex with everyone in the gang, everyone outside the gang they are told to, they are full members.

In general all activities that are common are legal, between consenting gang members, and sex within an age range.

Japan has bondage conventions, I have never heard of an age of consent. All over the web, schoolgirl bondage, showing clearly that she has her panties on, and her breasts covered.

Lap girls are not to be kissed on the lips, and their nipples and between their legs are not to be touched. They are fully dressed. No age of consent, and legal. Many are dressed as dolls.

Common cults are Lolitas, Victorian in full lace, and anima characters.

There is nothing sexual about it, they sit in laps, get petted and kissed, then comes bondage, a photo shoot to show they were properly dressed at all times, and then they go back to the street. Legal, and open to all ages.

It is still a sellers market, with many involved.

No evil men are forcing them to act roles and wear elaborate costumes. The girls themselves developed these role playing games.

They have a strictly legal method of getting attention and money.

Their business card says thirteen soon, make resevations now.

While it may be more open in the anthill of Japan where standing out and being noticed takes more work, it is just humans.

When an eleven year old girl wanted me to take her and her girlfriend skating, pay for it, drive and drop, return for the pickup, they do turn on the charm. Little kids pay attention to adults just before Christmas and their birthday. Trading attention for something in return is part of the system.

As an adult I used it, the mother of the same eleven year old sent me to check up on her. She was where she was supposed to be, with her girlfriends, and that turned into $20 for hotdogs and cokes for the lot.

Good report cards bring cash rewards. Letting fat aunts who smell of enough perfume for ten hug you brings presents.

So from the beginning we teach children to trade their bodies for affection, in return for gifts, cash, and more of the same in the future. The Minister is hands on as he tells little Mary how beautiful she is before her smiling parents. The owner of the grocery gives her candy, and her mom tells her to say thank you. The main outside adult in her life is her teacher, and being the teachers pet is approved. She gets a larger allowance when sitting on daddy's lap. Mom dresses her up with makeup at six for the child beauty pagent, where the judges look her over like a show dog. She is judged on her smile, bright eyes, and personallity. Letting the judge see her back stage in her underwear is worth a few points.

She is not rewarded for mastering long division, which is hard, but dressing as a baby doll made of candy earns big points.

As we get older the cost of living goes up, and all we have are the skills we were taught.

Few under thirty can afford to get married, mostly it lasts eighteen months, a one or two year lease. That leaves twenty years where looks and behavior gets the good stuff in life.

Only a quarter make it through the university, less get good jobs, recent events have lead to blocking that path, educated, unemployed, with student loans. Some have parents who will support them, others have what they take a shower with.

Rising status is the endall of our culture, falling status the greatest sin, and making girls criminals for making the rent, while other girls have a new convertable and a sugardaddy, seems wrong. Making the customers criminals drives the better from the market, leaving the dregs.

When both are criminals, the door is open for more crime.

The Mound of Venus is a slippery slope.