Aspergers and conditions such as Schizoid and Avoident

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Aspiewriter
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05 Mar 2011, 5:20 pm

universeofone wrote:
Do a search on, "Secret Schizoid", and tell me if it sounds familiar.


I just did the search and came up with a messageboard. And what I read of it, I CAN manage to interact with some people (those of like minds such as my fellow DnD gamers), sort of PLAY the part of social interaction, but still feel aloof from everyone. Make sense.



universeofone
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05 Mar 2011, 5:49 pm

Sorry, I thought there were some decent info sources out there when I posted it. I ran across the concept a few times when reading about SPD, as I once thought it to be the cause of my distress.

Basically, it deals with the use of masks, false fronts, etc., as a strategy to deal with other people and social situations. It pretty much describes how I got through my school years.

Sorry I don't have more,

Joe



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05 Mar 2011, 5:53 pm

universeofone wrote:
Sorry, I thought there were some decent info sources out there when I posted it. I ran across the concept a few times when reading about SPD, as I once thought it to be the cause of my distress.

Basically, it deals with the use of masks, false fronts, etc., as a strategy to deal with other people and social situations. It pretty much describes how I got through my school years.

Sorry I don't have more,


Lots of autistic people use these strategies. I know I've used them.



Aspiewriter
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05 Mar 2011, 5:54 pm

universeofone wrote:
Sorry, I thought there were some decent info sources out there when I posted it. I ran across the concept a few times when reading about SPD, as I once thought it to be the cause of my distress.

Basically, it deals with the use of masks, false fronts, etc., as a strategy to deal with other people and social situations. It pretty much describes how I got through my school years.

Sorry I don't have more,

Joe


Still does make sense. I often have had to put on a sort of mask when dealing with social situations, especailly with my own family and being dragged around to social situations (i.e. parties or other). Usually it's me in the corner with a book at socials, or starting at the wall. When having someone speak to me, I pretend to be interested, but really I am just nodding my head but avoiding eye contact at the same time.



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05 Mar 2011, 7:06 pm

I think a lot of people who have been diagnosed today with Asperger's decades ago would have been diagnosed as Schizoids. I've often wondered if these categories tend to overlap, rather than stay in nice, neat boxes.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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05 Mar 2011, 7:32 pm

I was diagnosed with AS, concurrent with GAD and panic disorder. The personality test revealed high anxiety levels, bolstered by high traits of mania and schizoid personality.



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07 Mar 2011, 10:08 pm

AFAIK, in the last 32 years,there were made 3 (three!) studies about the relation, diferential diagnosis, etc. between AS/ASD and Schizoid PD.

Then, the comparative studies are so few that AS and SPD could simply be two names for the same thing (and I note that, in many articles about AS, the authors tend to avoid the AS vs. SPD topic).

The studies:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

Quote:
SCHIZOID PERSONALITY IN CHILDHOOD: A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF SCHIZOID, AUTISTIC AND NORMAL CHILDREN

SUMMARY

Schizoid children (clinically resembling Asperger's autistic psychopaths), high-grade, speaking autistic children and normal children individually matched for age, sex and intelligence were compared on a variety of tests.

The results suggest that children with schizoid personality disorder are distinct from autistic children on the one hand and from normal children on the other. In all cognitive, language and memory tests the schizoid children were more distractable than, the normal group. In language function they showed similar disabilities to the autistic group, though to a lesser extent. Unlike autistic children, they were not perseverative. On two tests of affect, the schizoid group used even fewer emotional constructs when describing people than did the autistics.


http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/153/6/783
Quote:
Lifelong eccentricity and social isolation. II: Asperger's syndrome or schizoid personality disorder?

Several scales are described for measuring aspects of eccentricity and social isolation; in particular, for assessing schizoid and schizotypal personality and for rating abnormal non-verbal expression. The latter is shown to be reliable, and the former to have a measure of validity. There was an association between schizoid personality traits and abnormalities of speech and non-verbal expression. However, abnormal non-verbal expression, but not schizoid personality traits or DSM-III schizotypal personality disorder, was particularly likely to occur in those subjects who had evidence of neurological deficit, and childhood symptoms indicative of developmental disorder. Abnormal non-verbal expression, but not personality disorder, was also associated with other characteristic features of Asperger's syndrome, such as unusual, 'special' interests. It is suggested that Asperger's syndrome is a distinct syndrome from either schizoid or schizotypal personality disorder, but may be a risk factor for the development of schizoid personality disorder.


And more other study (very recent, by two polish researchers), that I can't find or even remember the name

EDIT: I found -

http://imfar.confex.com/imfar/2008/webp ... r2457.html

Quote:
From classic Asperger Syndrome to schizoid Asperger Syndrome

Background: Autistic syndrome, especially Asperger syndrome (AS),
often differs from schizoid personality in childhood. Several attempts
have been made to compare these diagnostic concepts (Tantam, 1988;
Nagy, Szatmari, 1986).These diagnostic categories were differentiated
in terms of the level and pervasiveness of social disability (more
severe in AS).
Objectives: We have proposed to connect these two diagnostic
categories into one, but with or without schizotypical symptoms.
Methods: We have examined and classified close to a hundred patients
with primary diagnosis of Asperger syndrome by using DSM IV TR and
Gillberg criteria.
Results: We have obtained roughly a 50/50 proportion between AS with
and without schizotypical symptoms. The patients with AS and
schizotypical symptoms were found to have better results in
psychotherapy and did not have to take neuroleptics in contrast to
children with classic AS.
Conclusions: We think that in the one illness we may have observed two
kinds of AS: classic and with schizotypical factors, but also with a
less intensivity of the core symptoms of AS. But if these
schizotypical (more introversive) symptoms lead to the better
prognosis, we may label it as the spectrum of Asperger Syndrome--from
AS to Introversion.



Last edited by TPE2 on 08 Mar 2011, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TPE2
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07 Mar 2011, 10:12 pm

Another point is that I even did not udestand what is supposed to be the conceptual difference between a PD and an ASD...



matt
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07 Mar 2011, 10:44 pm

An ASD is something that is believed to have been present in early childhood, but personality disorders are talked about as if they are manifestations of behaviors that have been learned and ingrained.



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08 Mar 2011, 10:03 am

matt wrote:
An ASD is something that is believed to have been present in early childhood, but personality disorders are talked about as if they are manifestations of behaviors that have been learned and ingrained.


I am not much sure of that. Yes, I know that ASD are belived to be present from early childhood, but I am not sure if PDs are supposed to be "learned and ingrained" (my impression is that the psychiatric community as a whole is largely agnostic if PDs are "nature" or "nurture", and each researcher has is own theory). Note that Schizoid and Schizotypal PD have the "schizo" in the name because it is hypothesized that they have a genetic relation with schizophrenia (that they tend to run in the same families, etc.) - then, at least some researchers think that some PDs have a genetic cause.



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09 Mar 2011, 4:56 am

I likely have schizoid disorder and not AS, but it's not the time to take care of myself. My son comes first. I only begin to realize that it's not my fault if I'm not social like others, even if I feel guilty for evetything is wrong in my life.



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09 Mar 2011, 3:26 pm

Verdandi wrote:
It's possible to meet the criteria for both.

I'll edit to add that I think the entire notion of "personality disorder" seems questionable to me, and that personality disorders often seem to manifest with neurological differences that imply to me that they are really not different in terms of category from other psychological or neurological conditions.

I also suspect that schizoid PD was an earlier (1920s) observation of autistic features, but I have no proof for this.


Yeah, I read up some on SPD and thought immediately that this is an adult with AS - this is what the symptoms result in as one gets older and learns to interact in the world. that sense of how to interact is different from how the (neuro)typical person interacts.


_________________
<p>
I did not go looking for Asperger's...it found me by way of my Higher Power. Once we became acquainted, I found out that we had quite a bit in common and we became good friends. And then I landed on WrongPlanet!
</p>


TPE2
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10 Mar 2011, 5:29 am

Surreal wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
It's possible to meet the criteria for both.

I'll edit to add that I think the entire notion of "personality disorder" seems questionable to me, and that personality disorders often seem to manifest with neurological differences that imply to me that they are really not different in terms of category from other psychological or neurological conditions.

I also suspect that schizoid PD was an earlier (1920s) observation of autistic features, but I have no proof for this.


Yeah, I read up some on SPD and thought immediately that this is an adult with AS - this is what the symptoms result in as one gets older and learns to interact in the world. that sense of how to interact is different from how the (neuro)typical person interacts.


However, there are some arguments against the "AS = SPD" theory:

1 - the estimates of prevalence for SPD are higher than for AS - whilo most studies indicate that about 0.25-0.5% of children have AS (and probably this rate applies also to the adult population), the estimates of prevalence for SPD are usually around 1% (sometimes higher); if they are the same thing, should havre similar prevalence rates

2 - the whole concept of "AS" only makes sense if we consider it as different from SPD - after all, the reason because the concept was created is because it was considered to be different form, for on side, of classical autism, and, for the other, from SPD (if you read the articles written in the 80s about AS, before their inclusion in the ICD and DSM, the proponents of the "AS hypothesis" usually argued that there are some similarities with SPD, but it was more important to see the differences)

3 - a not much solid evidence, but with some anedoctal value - in the threads at WP about the AQ, most people have results in the 30-50 range; if you go to schizoids.net, there are also threads about AQ, but most people have results between 20 and 30 (specially, people at schizoids.net have very low results - probably lower than the neurotypical norm - in the "attention to detail" subscale).



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10 Mar 2011, 5:31 am

Fair enough.



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10 Mar 2011, 5:41 am

An article about the supoposed differences between SPD and AS (or the condition currently known as AS)

http://4np.net/~sum1/psyforum/swolff-beyond_as.pdf

Quote:
We realised from the start that our children resembled
Asperger’s cases (Wolff and Chick, 1980). He stressed the
children’s giftedness, the association with maliciousness and
unusual fantasy. He reported the social disability to decrease in
adulthood when, despite continuing difficulties in intimate
relationships, work adjustment was often excellent. This
contrasts with more recent accounts of people with Asperger
syndrome (Tantam, 1988a and b; Tantam, 1991; and Wing,
1992), who were rarely able to lead independent lives or
maintain employment, and hardly ever married. Most of
Tantam’s patients had the triad of impairments typical of
autism in early childhood, although not always beginning
under the age of three, and most also scored highly on a
measure for schizoid/schizotypal personality. This was thought
to be secondary to the developmental disorder.
There are two reasons for preferring the
schizoid/schizotypal label for the children we have studied,
unless the category of Asperger syndrome is specifically
modified.

First, the children do not meet the criteria for Asperger
syndrome of ICD-10 (WHO, 1992; 1993) or DSM-IV (APA,
1994). They do not have the abnormalities of reciprocal social
interaction, nor the restrictive, repetitive, stereotyped patterns
of behaviour "as for autism". Our children’s features resemble
those of autism, but are not the same. ICD-10 criteria include
the absence of clinically significant general delay in spoken or
receptive language or cognitive development; and they include
circumscribed interests or restricted, repetitive, and
stereotyped behaviours. An exclusion criterion is schizotypal
disorder, but the definition includes schizoid disorder of
childhood and autistic psychopathy. DSM-IV criteria also
exclude significant delay of language and cognitive
development; indicate that the disturbance causes clinically
significant impairment in social, occupational or other areas of
functioning; and differentiates the disorder from schizoid
personality.

A few of our children were of below normal intelligence
and some had early language delays, occasionally severe. And
it is now known that severe developmental language disorder
can be associated both with social oddities and impaired
intimate relationships as well as an increased risk of later
paranoid psychosis (Mawhood, 1995).

In ICD-10, the criterion of circumscribed interest
patterns or restricted and stereotyped behaviour does not really
capture the, often sophisticated, special interests of our
schizoid young people. In the most intelligent of the schizoid
men, such interests formed the basis for a successful career
choice: in astrophysics and graphic design. Only in a few of
the less intellectually gifted, could their special interests be
described as restricted and repetitive.

Finally, an unusual fantasy life, occasionally amounting
to pathological lying and the adoption of aliases, was
prominent in some of our cases, as indeed it was in Asperger’s
too, and should be mentioned as a diagnostic feature of
Asperger syndrome, if the schizoid group here described is to
be included within this diagnostic category.

As Klin and Volkmar (1997) indicate, the diagnosis of
Asperger syndrome has been defined in varying ways, and
according to current diagnostic criteria, it cannot
unequivocably be differentiated from high functioning autism.
Prior et al (1998), in a cluster analysis, also found no clear
demarcation between high functioning children diagnosed as
having autism, Asperger’s syndrome or other pervasive
developmental disorders, merely differences in social and
cognitive impairments. In particular, early language delay or
deviance did not differentiate between the groups of children.
Yet none of our children had ever fulfilled the criteria for
autism.

A second reason for not classifying our children within
the pervasive developmental disorders is because different
diagnostic labels should not be used for the same condition
merely because it is recognised in childhood rather than later
life. Yet researchers into schizotypal personality in adult life
do not always read the child psychiatric literature. Olin et al
(1997) for example, overlooking the work of ourselves and of
Nagy and Szatmari (1986), in a study of teacher ratings of
school behaviour in adolescents later diagnosed as having a
schizotypal personality disorder, state that "no study" has yet
reported on the early behaviour of people given this diagnosis.
Their teacher ratings characterising these youngsters included
being lonely; content with isolation; anxious with peers;
having disturbed and inappropriate behaviour; and disciplinary
problems.

In summary, the children we described could be
classified either as having a schizoid/schizotypal personality
disorder whose diagnostic criteria they fulfil, or as having
Asperger’s autistic psychopathy according to Asperger’s
original description. The current diagnostic category of
Asperger syndrome is inappropriate unless its criteria both in
DSM-IV and ICD-10 are modified to omit the exclusion of
significant delays in speech and language and of schizoid and
schizotypal disorders; to specify the less severe social
impairments and more sophisticated all-absorbing interests in
comparison with autism; and to include a criterion for unusual
fantasy.


However, it is very probable that this "difference"could be only a difference of degree.