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Death Penalty
Should never be conducted 69%  69%  [ 27 ]
Should be conducted only in extreme circumstances 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
Should be conducted more often 18%  18%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 39

jamieboy
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18 Mar 2011, 4:14 am

ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
I certainly make concessions in my general Social Libertarian attitude when it comes to violence against women. The rape conviction rate is horribly low.


Huh? How can a conviction rate be horribly low?


Barely anyone who stands trial for rape is convicted of it. Most women end up simply not reporting rapes for a variety of reasons resulting in only 5% of all rapes ending in convinctions.


Then perhaps they are innocent? I don't see what underreporting has to do with you claiming a conviction rate is too low.


Well i'd imagine the conviction rate being low and the whole accusatory nature of the courts in rounding on the victims , not to mention potential misogynists on the jury serves to put alot of women off reporting the crime.. Only 5% of rapists seeing the inside of a prison cell is shocking and wrong.



ikorack
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18 Mar 2011, 4:23 am

jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
I certainly make concessions in my general Social Libertarian attitude when it comes to violence against women. The rape conviction rate is horribly low.


Huh? How can a conviction rate be horribly low?


Barely anyone who stands trial for rape is convicted of it. Most women end up simply not reporting rapes for a variety of reasons resulting in only 5% of all rapes ending in convinctions.


Then perhaps they are innocent? I don't see what underreporting has to do with you claiming a conviction rate is too low.


Well i'd imagine the conviction rate being low and the whole accusatory nature of the courts in rounding on the victims , not to mention potential misogynists on the jury serves to put alot of women off reporting the crime.. Only 5% of rapists seeing the inside of a prison cell is shocking and wrong.


What are you talking about? There is no accusatory view towards the presumed victim. Neither in the media nor the court systems. And there is no evidence that misogyny has any relevant social presence. Thats 5% of alleged rapists, if they where not convicted they are not legally speaking rapists and should not be labeled as such. With no conviction there is no reason to presume that the remaining 95% are rapists so there is no moral objection that you can justify.

There is no accusatory behavior towards alleged rape victims to turn women off from reporting rape, the only thing that I can think that would turn a woman off from reporting would be the position of the rapists or having been rendered emotionally dependent to the rapist in an abusive way.



Raymond_Fawkes
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18 Mar 2011, 5:20 am

My personal belief is against the death penalty, however politically I'd be for it. But .. I would rather have a society that relies on a honor system, similar to Japan where you respect each other, and not feel separated by ethnic or cultural differences. We should be past that already but unfortunately we aren't, We need to be more in sync and economic disparity is what causes crime and poverty. That income gap is large between the top % earners and lowest, 1 in 3 Americans make Walmart wages around 7$ a hour.



you_are_what_you_is
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18 Mar 2011, 11:47 am

Inuyasha wrote:
How are you pro-abortion and anti-death penalty, that is kinda hypocritical to say a murderer has more rights to life than an innocent child.

No it isn't, unless you're making a bunch of unreasonable assumptions about my other beliefs.

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Vigilans
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18 Mar 2011, 11:51 am

you_are_what_you_is wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
How are you pro-abortion and anti-death penalty, that is kinda hypocritical to say a murderer has more rights to life than an innocent child.

No it isn't, unless you're making a bunch of unreasonable assumptions about my other beliefs.

.


Inuyasha? Making unreasonable assumptions? That is a most unkind accusation, good sir! :wink:


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Inuyasha
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18 Mar 2011, 12:04 pm

Vigilans wrote:
you_are_what_you_is wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
How are you pro-abortion and anti-death penalty, that is kinda hypocritical to say a murderer has more rights to life than an innocent child.

No it isn't, unless you're making a bunch of unreasonable assumptions about my other beliefs.

.


Inuyasha? Making unreasonable assumptions? That is a most unkind accusation, good sir! :wink:


He has made comments in the past about it should be okay to kill children even after they are born. So yeah it is hypocritical, because murder is the act of depriving someone their right to live a murderer has committed that crime, unless we are talking murder in self-defense there should be consequences for someone murdering someone else.



you_are_what_you_is
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18 Mar 2011, 1:16 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
He has made comments in the past about it should be okay to kill children even after they are born. So yeah it is hypocritical, because murder is the act of depriving someone their right to live a murderer has committed that crime, unless we are talking murder in self-defense there should be consequences for someone murdering someone else.

I believe infanticide is sometimes justifiable with severely disabled newborns, and no, it's not hypocritical. You're making unjustified assumptions about my other beliefs.

'Murder' is a specific legal term referring to (from wikipedia) 'unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought'. I'd alter 'human being' to 'person' - not all human beings are persons, and (very probably) not all persons are human beings. Being human is of no ethical relevance to me; personhood is. So that's how I use the term 'murder'. Obviously, on my view, somebody who performs what I think should be a legal infanticide isn't a murderer.

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ruveyn
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18 Mar 2011, 7:00 pm

Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
My personal belief is against the death penalty, however politically I'd be for it. But .. I would rather have a society that relies on a honor system, similar to Japan where you respect each other, and not feel separated by ethnic or cultural differences. We should be past that already but unfortunately we aren't, We need to be more in sync and economic disparity is what causes crime and poverty. That income gap is large between the top % earners and lowest, 1 in 3 Americans make Walmart wages around 7$ a hour.


Japan is one of the most racist countries in the world. They regard people of Korean descent with loathing and disdain.

ruveyn



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18 Mar 2011, 11:07 pm

I’m always amused at the people that are opposed to any sort of state regulation (including, say, those regulations that are required for free market to thrive) but are perfectly oK with giving it the power to end human lives.

Things that are "innocent lives":
* Bacteria
* Sperm
* flies
* Mosquitoes


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jamieboy
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19 Mar 2011, 2:23 am

ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
I certainly make concessions in my general Social Libertarian attitude when it comes to violence against women. The rape conviction rate is horribly low.


Huh? How can a conviction rate be horribly low?


Barely anyone who stands trial for rape is convicted of it. Most women end up simply not reporting rapes for a variety of reasons resulting in only 5% of all rapes ending in convinctions.


Then perhaps they are innocent? I don't see what underreporting has to do with you claiming a conviction rate is too low.


Well i'd imagine the conviction rate being low and the whole accusatory nature of the courts in rounding on the victims , not to mention potential misogynists on the jury serves to put alot of women off reporting the crime.. Only 5% of rapists seeing the inside of a prison cell is shocking and wrong.




What are you talking about? There is no accusatory view towards the presumed victim. Neither in the media nor the court systems. And there is no evidence that misogyny has any relevant social presence. Thats 5% of alleged rapists, if they where not convicted they are not legally speaking rapists and should not be labeled as such. With no conviction there is no reason to presume that the remaining 95% are rapists so there is no moral objection that you can justify.

There is no accusatory behavior towards alleged rape victims to turn women off from reporting rape, the only thing that I can think that would turn a woman off from reporting would be the position of the rapists or having been rendered emotionally dependent to the rapist in an abusive way.


It's not 5% of alleged rapists. According to womens organisations like Rape Crisis only 5% of all rapes end with the rapist going to jail.



Raymond_Fawkes
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19 Mar 2011, 2:38 am

ruveyn wrote:
Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
My personal belief is against the death penalty, however politically I'd be for it. But .. I would rather have a society that relies on a honor system, similar to Japan where you respect each other, and not feel separated by ethnic or cultural differences. We should be past that already but unfortunately we aren't, We need to be more in sync and economic disparity is what causes crime and poverty. That income gap is large between the top % earners and lowest, 1 in 3 Americans make Walmart wages around 7$ a hour.


Japan is one of the most racist countries in the world. They regard people of Korean descent with loathing and disdain.

ruveyn


America is so diverse, that it would be easier for us to accept each other the way we are, since we aren't conditioned into believing into ideological differences of ethnicity. Japan has such a strong indigenous, singular identity that pride is sometimes put forth before acceptance of others. It's also a two sided problem with the Koreans. Most crime in Japan by foreigners is in regards to visa violations. Crime as a whole is relatively low in Japan. As a country they stick together and have pride and tend to respect each other more. I like that.

Ethnic Issues in Japan



ikorack
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19 Mar 2011, 4:02 am

jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
ikorack wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
I certainly make concessions in my general Social Libertarian attitude when it comes to violence against women. The rape conviction rate is horribly low.


Huh? How can a conviction rate be horribly low?


Barely anyone who stands trial for rape is convicted of it. Most women end up simply not reporting rapes for a variety of reasons resulting in only 5% of all rapes ending in convinctions.


Then perhaps they are innocent? I don't see what underreporting has to do with you claiming a conviction rate is too low.


Well i'd imagine the conviction rate being low and the whole accusatory nature of the courts in rounding on the victims , not to mention potential misogynists on the jury serves to put alot of women off reporting the crime.. Only 5% of rapists seeing the inside of a prison cell is shocking and wrong.




What are you talking about? There is no accusatory view towards the presumed victim. Neither in the media nor the court systems. And there is no evidence that misogyny has any relevant social presence. Thats 5% of alleged rapists, if they where not convicted they are not legally speaking rapists and should not be labeled as such. With no conviction there is no reason to presume that the remaining 95% are rapists so there is no moral objection that you can justify.

There is no accusatory behavior towards alleged rape victims to turn women off from reporting rape, the only thing that I can think that would turn a woman off from reporting would be the position of the rapists or having been rendered emotionally dependent to the rapist in an abusive way.


It's not 5% of alleged rapists. According to womens organisations like Rape Crisis only 5% of all rapes end with the rapist going to jail.


And how have they determined who is a rapist and who isn't. And even then thats not a matter of the conviction rate its a matter of investigations, if you focus on just the conviction rate you run the risk of arbitrarily(Which would mean your not actually guaranteed to be putting more rapists into prison just more people) increasing the conviction rate for no other reason than that it isn't where you think it should be. If you want rapists convicted you focus on what policies will help police find evidence to convict with not what will increase the rate of conviction at trial, also I feel I should point out that your original statement was only 5% of rapists are ever convicted not that only 5% of all rapes end in conviction.