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puddingmouse
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26 Jul 2012, 1:44 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Perhaps it's different in Asia, where women have higher expectations about a man's earning potential. I know as a working class person from a European country that no such expectations exist amongst the bulk of women.


I suspect that, given the choice between a highly-paid doctor, a business executive, a janitor, or a disabled man living on disability payments, most European women would prefer the doctor or the business executive. Most US women would, anyway. Maybe European ladies are more egalitarian. :wink:


Most women would prefer a highly paid man, but what about women who are janitors or on disability? I'll never get why people have such unreasonable expectations.

Men are seen less as providers over here, and I know a lot of relationships where the woman is the breadwinner, and they're happy with that.


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ArrantPariah
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26 Jul 2012, 2:26 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Men are seen less as providers over here, and I know a lot of relationships where the woman is the breadwinner, and they're happy with that.


Well, that's great! :wtg:



puddingmouse
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26 Jul 2012, 2:30 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Men are seen less as providers over here, and I know a lot of relationships where the woman is the breadwinner, and they're happy with that.


Well, that's great! :wtg:


:lol: I was expecting you to go, 'no women are gold diggers everywhere', or something.


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ArrantPariah
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26 Jul 2012, 2:51 pm

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
Apparently, among others, the answer: Djibouti, Zimbabwe, Armenia, Bangladesh, Mauritania, El Salvador, Estonia, Sierra Leone and Russia.
All of those have a lot more women than they have men in the category 15-64. That explains why the Russian mail order bride business means big money.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... china.html

Quote:
One feature of the Russian-Chinese relationship seemed especially telling: Cross-border marriages are overwhelmingly between Chinese men and Russian women. Much of this has to do with demographics—Russia has a surplus of women, while China has too many men. But as one Russian woman told me, "Chinese men are kinder and more attentive to their wives. And they usually have more money."


I had the impression that most Chinese people only liked to marry other Chinese people, and that Chinese men were pursuing Vietnamese brides because of similar cultures, racial characteristics, etc. And, as the article mentions, Russia does have its share of xenophobia.

But, markets have to clear, one way or another.

I also had the impression that the Russian bride business was dominated by mafia-scammers. Hopefully, I am wrong about that, too.

The most famous Sino-Russian marriage was between Chiang Kai-Shek's son, Chiang Li-Fan (who became ruler of Taiwan upon his father's death), and Faina Ipat'evna Vakhreva, better known as Chiang Fang-liang.

Image



ArrantPariah
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26 Jul 2012, 7:45 pm

Here is the Russian population pyramid

Image

Genders seem to be relatively even until about the age of 30. After that, men are gradually, and then abruptly, disappearing from the population.

Vladimir Putin is talking about taking steps to reverse Russia's population decline

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... cline.html

Quote:
As part of demographic policies, the government will combat widespread alcohol and drug abuse and entice some 300,000 migrants a year to Russia, Putin said, also proposing monthly cash incentives for women to bear more than two children.


Given the way Russian men seem to succumb to smoking, excessive drinking, and unhealthy lifestyles, resulting in early death, I can see why a lot of Russian women might be looking for a foreign husband.

I don't know who is going to migrate to Russia. A lot of people moved to America for the higher wages. Who wants to migrate to Russia for lower wages? Possibly Chinese bachelors, although some other things that I've read indicated that Chinese were not wholehearted welcomed there.



ruveyn
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26 Jul 2012, 7:48 pm

During the ages of fertility the females and the males are just about equal.

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ArrantPariah
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26 Jul 2012, 9:34 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Men are seen less as providers over here, and I know a lot of relationships where the woman is the breadwinner, and they're happy with that.


Well, that's great! :wtg:


:lol: I was expecting you to go, 'no women are gold diggers everywhere', or something.


Sorry to disappoint. :wink:



ArrantPariah
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26 Jul 2012, 10:33 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzgkQOK1t-o[/youtube]

Russia does come off sounding a bit paradaisical.

International marriage businesses do appear to be thriving:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00q6BKYR1U8[/youtube]



ArrantPariah
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27 Jul 2012, 9:06 pm

Here is a list of sex ratios by country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _sex_ratio

I couldn't find any finer comparisons than 15-64 age group. In most countries, 15 year olds are not available for marriage. Women beyond 45 are past their reproductive years. But, this is the best I could find.

You can sort by sex ratio. The ones that have the highest ratios of men to women are the oil-rich Persian Gulf countries--possibly because of a large number of foreign male workers. But, even Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, West Bank and Gaza have more men than women. I wouldn't know how to explain this.

Some African and Caribbean countries seem to have the highest ratios of women to men, followed by Russia and former Soviet republics.

Singapore actually has more women than men--so, maybe there isn't such a big reason for most Singaporean men to go wife-shopping in Vietnam.

Vietnam and Thailand--two popular sources of brides--have just slightly more women than men.

It looks like a bachelor visiting Zimbabwe, Djibouti or Armenia might get mauled--just based on a superficial look at the table.



HisDivineMajesty
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27 Jul 2012, 9:41 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Here is a list of sex ratios by country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _sex_ratio

I couldn't find any finer comparisons than 15-64 age group. In most countries, 15 year olds are not available for marriage. Women beyond 45 are past their reproductive years. But, this is the best I could find.


One source used there is the CIA World Factbook. Perhaps you can find more information there.
They tend to have extensive amounts of information on all countries in the world, and they have a list of sex ratios.

ArrantPariah wrote:
You can sort by sex ratio. The ones that have the highest ratios of men to women are the oil-rich Persian Gulf countries--possibly because of a large number of foreign male workers. But, even Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, West Bank and Gaza have more men than women. I wouldn't know how to explain this.


For the latter five, perhaps it has something to do with their standard of living in combination with their culture. In their culture, sons are usually worth more than daughters - they find women who take care of their parents, they go to school, and they work for a lot more money. Combine that with a generally-poor state of health care, and you might find an explanation why more boys than girls make it to fifteen. It's a higher-yield and more stable investment.

ArrantPariah wrote:
Some African and Caribbean countries seem to have the highest ratios of women to men, followed by Russia and former Soviet republics.


Considering the amount of Aruban and Antillean men living here, I can very well understand why.
There are many more men than women from that area here, it seems. They left their families behind.

ArrantPariah wrote:
Singapore actually has more women than men--so, maybe there isn't such a big reason for most Singaporean men to go wife-shopping in Vietnam.

Vietnam and Thailand--two popular sources of brides--have just slightly more women than men.


They seem to think Singaporean women are rude and decadent, and the men who go shopping for Vietnamese wives are generally looking for something a bit more obedient than the traditionally quite emancipated Singaporean women.

ArrantPariah wrote:
It looks like a bachelor visiting Zimbabwe, Djibouti or Armenia might get mauled--just based on a superficial look at the table.


The lions aren't making it easy, though. You're usually mauled by lions before you're mauled by feral hordes of women.



ArrantPariah
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04 Aug 2012, 3:10 pm

Here is a documentary on the Korean perspective.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqh3EZDRLa8[/youtube]

I was in Korea back in the 1980s, and found the ladies to be absolutely delightful, even to an Aspie.

Now, it looks like Korean ladies can be highly selective, as a result of being vastly outnumbered by men.



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09 Aug 2012, 3:12 pm

http://carnalnation.com/content/43558/9 ... -risk-jail

Quote:
...Mr Francis Toh, 54, who owns the First Overseas International Matchmaker in Katong Shopping Centre in Singapore, has had his brother-in-law Nguyen Van Phat, 35, arrested for arranging for scores of prospective brides to be lined up for the inspection of his Malaysian clients. Phat was convicted of human trafficking and jailed 12 years. Phat’s Malaysian customers were jailed six months each...


It seems rather excessive, especially considering that millions of girls end up like this

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFSY8198GDY[/youtube]

I know that prostitution is very much a part of the culture, but being married to a wealthy Korean or Chinese husband would probably, in most cases, be better than being sold to a brothel, and possibly being exposed to some really terrible diseases. A foreign husband would probably also be more lucrative to the woman's parents, who would receive a sizeable dowry and comfortable remittances.



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25 Aug 2012, 4:20 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
No, equal relationships work out fine in socieities where women are seen as at least close to equals (i.e. not East Asia).


It seems that, in Singapore at least, marriage partners are more equal than elsewhere.

http://mathialee.wordpress.com/2012/05/ ... lity-rate/

Quote:
.....People tend to marry amongst their own social class, and when the GINI coefficient is so high, the number of people within the social class you can access, becomes much smaller. So it’s harder to find partners, more challenging to marry, and so there is less opportunity to have babies.

Anecdotally, many of my friends in Singapore are very unwilling to marry and start families with another person whose income is way below theirs. Most people don’t mind if it’s maybe, 10% different, but if you earn 5x more than your date, and your date’s prospects aren’t likely to change, chances are you’re not going consider that date as a potential spouse.....

In Singapore, social class is not just about your education level, though that is a very close proxy indicator because of our education and job hiring practices. Income and assets, I speculate, is arguably, an equally important factor in determining your social class. A college dropout who works in the support office is viewed very differently from the college dropout who starts up a billion-dollar company. When the income between the different social strata of society gets wider – as implied by a rising GINI, the number of people who earn +/- 10% of your income tend to be smaller. And we all know dating is a numbers game.....

With childcare prices hitting over $1000, and milk powder more expensive than wine, any university grad’s ex-classmate will be a lot more attractive than a bus driver. It really doesn’t matter whether you are looking for a wife or husband — the fact is, if your income is $5000 and you marry your office cleaner rather than your office accountant, your HDB mortgage period is going to double. It may mean you need to work till 70yrs instead of 60yrs, just to pay off your mortgage....

When a fast-rising young man chooses a retail-sales girl over a fellow fast-rising banker, the poor girl is often stereotyped as a gold-digger. I’m sure we’ve all heard stories where daughter-in-laws are treated differently because of their education or income....



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30 Nov 2012, 3:39 pm

Taiwan seems to have a huge market for Vietnamese brides, too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese ... _in_Taiwan

Quote:
...The circumstances of the Vietnamese that go to Taiwan as brides are depressingly common. Most brides originate from the remote countryside of Vietnam. It has been observed that more than half of the Vietnamese women recruited into migrant marriages come from the rural Mekong Delta region. As is also common in labor migration, the primary motivation in most migrant marriages, from the female perspective, is economy and security. The majority of Vietnamese women come from families that suffer from unpaid debts, bad seasons of crop, or jobless family members. Marriage brokers who promise a life of prosperity overseas lure women to Taiwan. While a Taiwanese man may pay up to $10,000 USD to arrange for a migrant marriage, the woman’s family may only see as little as $100 USD of that money. The broker absorbs the rest. Nevertheless, most women, in agreeing to marriage, are under the impression that they will be able to find work in Taiwan and send money back to their families in Vietnam. In one survey of origin households in Vietnam, researchers asked the parents of marriage migrants why their daughters chose to migrate to Taiwan. The top three answers reported were “To help the family” (61.6%), “For a better life” (10.8%), and “To make parents happy” (6.3%)....

Taiwanese men who marry women from Southeast Asia are typically drawn from a less educated and disadvantaged population. While Taiwanese husbands tend to have more education than their Vietnamese brides, they still fall below the average levels of education in Taiwan.[5] Many times a man can be more than a decade, or possibly two to three decades, older than his migrant bride. Seventy percent of Vietnamese brides are under 23 years of age, while over eighty percent of their Taiwanese grooms are aged over 30. All of these factors (lack of education, disadvantage, and advanced age) typically contribute to trouble in finding a bride locally and thus increase the desire to enter a migrant marriage. For many Taiwanese men, migrant marriages can seem like an easy solution to their household troubles, as a wife can act as a reproductive unit, a housekeeper, and a nurse to his parents. In one study, the percentage of women who reported “housework” as their primary occupation rose from 16.7% while located in Vietnam to 52.4% after being relocated to Taiwan. As can be seen in a woman’s primary motivation for marriage (“To help the family”), the Vietnamese have strong familial ties and practice high subservience to a patriarchal structure. This trait is highly prized by some Taiwanese men who feel that Taiwanese women are beginning to wrest away from the constraints of a patriarchal society...


Patriarchal: 'Dems fightin' words! to the Western Feminist.

Here is a mass wedding, of Vietnamese brides in Taiwan:

Image

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 17,00.html
Quote:
....As less desirable men find themselves snubbed by Taiwan's sophisticated women, one in four grooms in Taiwan now marries a bride from Southeast Asia or mainland China. "There's a strong urban bias in Taiwan," says Professor Hsia Hsiao-chuan of Shih Hsin University's Graduate Institute of Social Transformation Studies. "That means farmers and blue-collar workers have a hard time finding wives." But the rejected and dejected are treated like kings by professional matchmakers, who take them on trips to browse for brides in poorer parts of Asia....


At that rate, Vietnam is going to be running clear out of women.



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30 Nov 2012, 4:14 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Perhaps it's different in Asia, where women have higher expectations about a man's earning potential. I know as a working class person from a European country that no such expectations exist amongst the bulk of women.


I suspect that, given the choice between a highly-paid doctor, a business executive, a janitor, or a disabled man living on disability payments, most European women would prefer the doctor or the business executive. Most US women would, anyway. Maybe European ladies are more egalitarian. :wink:

Given that realm of choices, I'd prefer a man who's a doctor, though he wouldn't have to be high-paid (indeed, I'd prefer it if he wasn't working 80 hours a week), because I work in health care and am well-educated, and would prefer a husband I have something in common with and wouldn't be going, "durrr... duh..." whenever I tried to talk about anything more complex than football.



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30 Nov 2012, 6:19 pm

If all involved parties are willing, I don't see how an argument against this can be made. It isn't my right, or anyone else's, to tell a woman she can't marry for money or to get out of her country or whatever else. It is her own decision.

That is, however, a really big if.


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