Lying

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Lol, I like that approach. Fairly effective way of dealing with lying when your child isn't old enough to learn when lying is appropriate.

Sounds like the stage of trying to make themselves more interesting, create the life they think will impress other people. It's kind of amusing watching them get tangled in the webs of those lies. A few good tangles and they leave lying in most versions behind for good. I swear, I couldn't have dreamt up a better lesson than the one my son created for himself right around that age, when he was trying to impress a friend. He has not lied since.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 14 May 2011, 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

So should I ignore it then? Or just call him on it to let him know that I'm aware of it and then leave it be?

I think that is why it's upsetting me. The lying=stealing. He doesn't steal things from public places but I wouldn't say he's never taken something that doesn't belong to him. For example, keeping a watch he found after I told him to hand it in to the lost and found (community center). To me, that's the same as stealing. He's not a child that goes without. He has plenty of opportunities. He wears nice clothes. Christmas/birthdays are generous.. but he's always asking for more. That's the bigger problem. So this lying bit about getting "stuff" is another form of stealing to me. Plus, the made up stories to his family members, just adds to the problem. I'm at a loss.

I know he has a harder time understanding other people's feelings. I know he's quite egocentric. I'm scared to make the wrong move in this that it will escalate into a more serious issue that will have a serious consequence out of my control.

Last edited by ASDsmom on 13 May 2011, 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, I would let him know that his lies are obvious. It doesn't do him or anybody else any good if his lies are obviously transparent. If he is going to lie, he is going to need to learn when to do so, and also how to lie effectively (believably).

So, yeah, call him out on it, and then explain when lying is a good idea vs. bad idea.

I've informed his school and Behaviour Consultant about this. I've even told him I did so he's aware that we're all aware of his fibs. He didn't like it but it didn't curb the situation. If he can pull a fast one on me, he will. I've tried opening up a couple of restrictions so he didn't feel the "need" to lie about one specific issue: bringing toys to school. I lifted it because I realized he'd have to learn the hard way if anything were to get lost, broken or damaged. I'm glad I did that because he is now telling me what he's bringing. We're not having to fit a discussion around "1 item to school" which created a problem when he "ran out of new items" lol and when something did get damaged, he handled it well. The restriction was made because a while back, he was having major meltdowns because his "favourite" toy got lost. He demanded I buy him a new one and because I wouldn't, his behaviours escalated. The only rule I have now is around his Nintendo. No electronics to school. He has snuck it already. His teacher wrote me a note about it. They have a no-electronics rule as well. Anyway, turned out, his DAYCARE told him he could bring it. I became the bad guy because I wouldn't let him. Apparently, they allow the children in the afterschool daycare to bring their electronics to daycare every Thursday. Since my son only attends the morning daycare, a staff member made "special privilages" for him, by allowing him to bring it in the morning. No one discussed this with me. Suddenly there was a problem with Nintendo on Thursdays, in one form or another. Today was HORRIBLE getting to daycare because I wouldn't let him bring it. Major melt downs en route. WTF?? I found out today why. Not impressed.

Anywayyyyyy .. got off topic a bit there, I'm just trying to understand his motive so I can help him through it. When I asked him, he said he lies to get stuff.

Wishful thinking lies can be handled lightly, but they still need to be handled, explaining that you know he's lying and it is likely to cause issues down the road. The "you are wonderful as you are and don't need this" speech.

Lying to get stuff is different. Obviously he thinks or hopes it will work, and may be confused about the value of truth in this world. I've heard some AS posters say that they concluded as kids that everyone lied all the time, and their parents were hypocrites to tell them couldn't, so their only goal was to get better at it. I think that Is usually at an older age, however, but definitely something to be aware can become a problem. It comes from misunderstanding manners and white lies combined with the literal and black/white thinking, and maybe from a sense of broken promises or misleading expectations from parents.

There is no "you know what I meant" with an AS child.

For now, the main thing would be to make sure lies never get him closer to his goals, so he learns it just does not work. If that means you inspect his back pack every morning to see if he is being truthful, so be it.

Better is to teach them how to handle those situations without lying, though. "Yes, I really enjoyed the conversation." "I'll have to see if I have a conflict." "Sorry, I got started late."

Yes, but to my son those are still lies. The answers he wants to give, the ones he thinks are truthful, are Trackers. Him and I have talked circles on this. He insists that asking him to be tactful IS the same as asking him to lie. I've really struggled to get him scripts that he finds acceptable to the "no lying" standard, and he often still can't get to one fast enough to avoid blurting out an answer that everyone else thinks is mean.

I should note that he also really doesn't understand why saying something was over cooked, for example, is mean. He really believes that sort of information is helpful. It's like my son really was meant, at times, to live in a whole different culture.

Tangent - the last issue is causing trouble for my NT daughter. She has incorporated the idea that some negative comments are meant to be helpful (she's spent most of her life hearing that she should try not to get so upset at her brother's bluntness, he doesn't intend to be mean) and she is getting in trouble for it with other girls at school ... Man, it is so hard to get everthing right in one household for two entirely different kids!

I'm afraid you really can't argue his logic on this one... even tactful, social lies are still just that - lies. By definition a lie is an untruth. It doesn't matter why it's being told, a lie is a lie. The key is in teaching them the different types of lies and when to use them. Teaching an AS kid that lying is wrong is, in and of itself, a lie. Just call the spade a spade. I think most aspies are more than capable of understanding the concept and eventually get the hang of the socially acceptable/ expected lie.

I'm still hung up on this premise even now, in my forties. I still cannot understand the vehemence that the majority of the population has with accepting even tactful lies for what they are. I'm fairly certain those with AS are not making any sort of value judgement on people who use social lies. The population at large has this huge hang up on being called a lair yet most readily admit that they do this regularly. Really, it's ok. It's how you operate. We get that. We still wrestle with the inherent diacotomy of the concept but we can recognise the behavior for what it is. Give kids a break and just go with the logical, dictionary definitions and explain the details from there.

Question - on Top Chef, the judges routinely pass judgements like overcooked, under seasoned, etc... it is a critique intended to help hone the chefs talents. It is a matter of fact if a meal is undercooked or overcooked. That doesn't mean he appeciates the meal or your effort any less. Would you rather cook the same thing and continually overcook it for years on end with no one ever telling you they disliked it? That would be like having a piece of food stuck in your teeth all day and no one wanted to hurt your feelings by telling you. Perhaps teaching him to express his gratitude first and foremost before anything else would be more helpful. Always saying please and thank you is one of the first etiquette lessons we all learn. Perhaps the critique will go down smoother if, at least, the cook realizes that he appreciates their effort.

It kind of funny in an unfunny way. What you call blunt, I call truthful. I rarely get upset when someone is truthful with me. Someone being intentionally mean feels much different that just the blunt truth. I'm fairly intrigued why the general population doesn't also see this difference.

I think you really do need to explain the reasoning to the lie in these situations. Scripting out the reasons for the lie would be more helpful - it would help set precedence for the entire social lie process.

Never by pass a real life opportunity to explain a social story. If you witness something in line at the supermarket, he has a story about a disagreement between friends at school, whatever. Tune into the conversations around you and use them to teach every day. He'll get the hang of it to some degree eventually.

On a personal note: Wow - why don't people just ask what they really mean? Just typing out those answers set my mind screaming in that same direction. I can't help but wonder how these sort of silent expectations go continually misread and misconstrued in everyone's lives. This is the core of the Mars/Venus theory. This is probably, to some degree, responsible for wars. Such an inexact system that leaves way too much open to misinterpretation. If people just said and asked what they really meant, life would be so much simplier for everyone.

My suggestions are certainly not answers to the questions asked. However, if you ignore the question, they are truthful statements. I think if you explain it that way, your son will understand - my suggestions consist of ignoring the question and saying something else instead, while Tracker's suggestions are still flat out lies.

The question then becomes, why ignore the question? Then you can get to the root of the issue - sometimes when people say something that sounds like a question, it's not really a question, it's just a social noise; they don't want an answer. Your son's current reaction will probably be, "that's stupid, if thy don't want an answer, they shouldn't ask a question" - which in my opinion is true, but when he gets older, he may be able to understand better why some people act this way.


Inevitable at his age, I think. Later he will be able to absorb the idea that just because someone asks something, doesn't mean one has to respond.


He's right, of course. When I ask "how was the roast" after cooking one for dinner, I want an honest answer, the kind your son would give. "It was overcooked" will allow me to do a better job next time, waiting a bit longer before popping the roast in. In fact, right this instant I have a roast ready to go in to the oven but not put in yet because I previously got honest responses from my wife indicating that earlier ones were overcooked. Your son would do great in a culture composed entirely or primarily of aspies.

Unfortunately, he's not likely to end up in such a culture. Just as neurotypical parents often learn from this parenting forum that aspies really don't think the same way neurotypicals do, your son may eventually have to learn that neurotypicals don't think the same way aspies do.

This does point up why my suggestions are better than Tracker's suggested "tactful lies". Both options will satisfy a neurotypical. However, occasionally your son will encounter another aspie, and in that case, "tactful lies" will just be flat out lies, misleading the other aspie into believing something that isn't true. My tactful redirections may be puzzling to an aspie, but since they are technically truthful, they won't mislead; they give the other aspie the option of asking for clarification, and making it clear he really wants a truthful answer.


The lesson here is that different people are different, and even when they ask the same question, they may mean different things. Since she is neurotypical, your daughter may be ready to absorb that lesson well before your son is.


Explaining the reasons to lie implies that lying is okay. I think that's a bad lesson to teach; it may work with neurotypicals, but it will cause problems with other aspies. I think it's better to try to explain the reasons why people ask questions when they don't want the answer.

I think we went off topic though. My son isn't "lying" as a way of being brutally honest. That's a seperate issue all together. This situation came up today, actually.. during a soccer game. He said something "offensive" about another player. When I called him on it, he said, "What, it's true!" Maybe so. He's entitled to his opinions but we don't always have to voice our opinions when it can be hurtful.

My son lies in order to get something. He had another tantrum today over an item at the grocery store. In fact, our biggest issues often revolve around him not getting something he wanted. I have many talks with him about how life isn't about always getting something we want. I talk about some of the things I want that I can't have and that I'm ok with it.. such is life. Now it's spilling into getting something behind my back. It's a problem.

I remember becoming intensely curious about lying around 12-13. Up to that point it was something I wasn't supposed to do and, for me, that was that. That was the rule. But around 12 I started to become aware that my parents lied all the time - to other people, to me, to each other. Sure, some of it was 'little white lies' intended to not hurt feelings but I could never shake the intense discomfort that telling a lie created. Conversely, I also was beginning to realize that lying got you what you wanted, got you out of trouble, bought you more time, bought you sympathy. I started making up wild lies just to see what reactions they would cause - like a little scientist. I never had any intention to harm but I sure did.

It was an intensely confusing time for me as a kid and the beginning of my now recurrent bouts with depression.

I have no clue if this is what is going on with your boy but it was worth mentioning.

As far as the store tantrums, we pre-script every shopping trip with our daughter. We state exactly what we are shoppnig for and that we are not picking up other stuff - no toys, no books, no clothes - only whats on the list. Then we ask her to make that deal with us. When we first started doing it we would reward a good trip with something small - as a little kid, a toy from the vending machines would do. Now that she's older, we just need to remind her of our deal and that she agreed. She's very rule oriented so it works well for us. The 'life isn't fair' speech does little to no good. I think the concept is just too far over her head for now. She is very motivated by fairness which shopping trips trigger. ' If mom and dad are buying something its only fair that I do too.' We needed to do a good bit of scripting to teach her about family needs vs personal wants. She now realizes that trips for food or clothes or school supplies is a 'need', not a want. We also occassionally schedule trips for 'wants' to help balance it out.

Yes we did. Sorry about that.


Draelynn's form of agreement for shopping may be a good approach here.

I'm trying to think how I learned that I couldn't have everything I wanted. I think that in my case, I was allowed to buy things I wanted with my own money. I got an allowance which I saved up, and when I got older, I was paid for some forms of yard work as well. That taught me to save up for things if I really wanted them, which was a good lesson. I couldn't always have things right away, but if I was patient, I could have them. It also taught me a little bit about money management and prioritization.

Does your son have an allowance?

The discussion isn't as far off tangent as it seems. It illustrates that even in the best of situations many AS think the NT rules on lying are inconsistent and hypocritical, or simply too confusing to follow, and there isn't any one way our AS adults resolve that conflict. If your child is starting to feel that way on any level, he's going to write his own rules on it, and that could be why you are seeing some of the patterns you are seeing. While I think your son is a little young for that level of analysis on it, that doesn't mean you can rule out all versions of the thought process. If he's confused about lying he will choose to lie when it's convenient. He could easily feel like he'd be a sucker NOT to.

As for issues shopping ... An allowance worked wonders for us. My kids get simple toy money that was based on how much I felt I had been spending anyway. Only difference being that I turned control over to them. To keep things simple it all goes in a mommy bank, no cash involved, and there is a posted account record that gets updated when purchases are made or deposits are added. All purchases are dollar rounded, I pay sales tax so that they only need to understand the sticker price (they are more than ready to upgrade that, but we started when they were really young). My kids always know their balance. It's not connected to chores or anything else, although I have been known to charge fines as a consequence for certain infractions (well warned in advance, and never more than one week's worth). I started this young for my own sanity on the advice of a friend and it was magic.