Death Penalty
jrjones9933
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@MarketAndChurch By your reasoning, then, everyone who uses a product bears responsibility for anyone killed in an industrial accident while working at a job manufacturing that product. I'd rather work for increased job safety than sit in a vigil, which I consider better suited to my skills, and prevent further deaths. Again, do you feel comfortable supporting a system where 78% of executions are for crimes against whites, and 13% are for crimes against blacks when the number of victims of each race is fairly equal?
I find the growth of the private prison industry extremely disturbing, especially when I see the money they spend on lobbying and contributing to political campaigns. However ineffectively the government operates, I'd prefer to keep the prisons in the public sector.
As long as we seem stuck in the hypothetical, let's bring it closer to the achievable. We could uses fines more effectively if we assessed them on a sliding scale based on assets (criminal income being difficult to measure). Between that and ending the drug war, we'd have a lot more to spend on rehabilitation and on safety for the workers in the prisons. Incarceration in its current form provably increases criminality, and reduces opportunities to succeed in mainstream society.
As far as peoples' need to punish and have the state mete out vengance on their behalf, I just don't know. Do we as a society want to cultivate this attitude with all its devestating consequences, or should we spend some effort and money on helping the victims of crimes?
_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade
Finally, I'd rather he spent a horrible life in prison next to a very friendly cell mate.
Unfortunately you approach is expensive. Food, board and security cost quite a bit. Philosophically I agree with you. I would not trust our legal system for one second.
ruveyn
Finally, I'd rather he spent a horrible life in prison next to a very friendly cell mate.
Unfortunately you approach is expensive. Food, board and security cost quite a bit. Philosophically I agree with you. I would not trust our legal system for one second.
ruveyn
ruveyn, please to talk with Master Pedant:
Philologos wrote:
Master Pedant:
"it costs much more to administer than life imprisonment"
Unless you mean moral cost, surely it does not NEED to? "Take this man outside and dispose of him" Or are you figuring in productive work the prisoner may be compelled to do?
I'm not speaking of pointless thought experiments or bizarre, never going to happen situations. Sure, if we tried everyone with a make-shift, pro-bono, Kangaroo Court and line prisoners up in front of firing squad, it could be cheaper. But prosecuting people in a liberal democracy is a lot more expensive then that due to the presumption of innocence and the appeals process.
Unless you have any idea about the workings of the judicial system or the change of reforms, I highly doubt your in any position to judge the viability of "cost-cutting" measures.
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I do NOT know the relative cost of maintaining a prisoner for life versus performing an execution.
I do NOT know the relative cost of legal proceedings when the outcome is death versus when the outcome is life imprisonment.
I WISH I were as sure as Master Pedant that there will not be firing squads here.
Unless you have any idea about the workings of the judicial system or the change of reforms, I highly doubt your in any position to judge the viability of "cost-cutting" measures.
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I do NOT know the relative cost of maintaining a prisoner for life versus performing an execution.
I do NOT know the relative cost of legal proceedings when the outcome is death versus when the outcome is life imprisonment.
I WISH I were as sure as Master Pedant that there will not be firing squads here.
I have nothing but doubts about what you brought up.
As to the cost of execution, one dollar and fifty cents for a 45 calibre bullet to blow the brains out of the person to be executed. Quick, cheap, simple. And relatively low tech.
ruveyn
I'm against the death penalty, but not cuz I give a s**t about some serial killer or child molester's life. They can go burn to death and die slow for all I care. It's cuz there is a high level of fallibility and ambiguity when it comes to forensic science. Also both the system and forensic science are subject to the constraints of time, funding and manpower which leaves an even bigger margin of error. There is also politics involved in the system which leaves potential for corruption. If a politician who wants to appear tough on crime cuts corners in the system, then this can lead to either haphazard death sentencing or weak links in the procedures.
Please, when you start to work on perfecting the criminal justice system, let me know. I'll help! When we finish, we'll start executing fools from dawn to dusk! Otherwise, it's just another case of taking pride in deliberate ignorance.
Even if the justice system was totally fair, how is the death penalty in any way appealing? It's just more violence in the end. Doesn't bring anyone back.
Trying to make a point, here, about political support, which matters more to me in reality than philosophical support. Let's hold off on this conversation until we perfect the criminal justice system. You get what I'm saying? Feel free to think I'm a bad person until then, though.
I don't think you're a bad person. I just don't think that's a good belief to have (supporting the death penalty, that is).
Death penalty does not seem to stop crime rates. It does increase the risk to have innocent people killed by inept governments in attempts to make citizens feel 'safer'.
I don't know why:
- having or not having remorse
ability to be rehabilitated
history of unstable, violent, or psychopathic ways, and
the horribly nastiness of a crime
are given any weight at all... what if he was just a computer science guy at intel in a middle class suburb who came home and flipped out catching another man with his wife and kills them both. You take a life, you don't get to keep your own.
Because justice doesn't exist. There is no such thing.
What anyone "deserves" is immaterial. Killing people for vengeance is as invalid as killing people as a deterrent.
It's about what is best for society as a whole. If a person has potential to contribute, they should be allowed to. Some might argue that they should be compelled to, but i won't go that far.
As a fully licensed and bonded idealist, I don't think punishment is something the state is qualified to dole out. We don't currently make much of an effort to rehabilitate anyone - we just warehouse criminals to get them off the street.
We should make it about providing a return on investment for society.
If a criminal can be transformed into a productive member of society, we should do that.
If they can't, we should keep them the hell out of society.
If their disposition is so grave that there is no chance they will ever be of any value to their fellow man, they should be put down.
This is all "perfect world" scenario because, as i said, I'm wearing my idealist hat.
It's not about what might make the victim feel as though they were made whole. They will never be made whole. We should stop trying. It doesn't benefit anyone.
I have been the victim of very few crimes.
If the guy who did $2000 worth of damage to my car to steal my $150 stereo had somehow been compelled to put my car back together exactly the way he'd found it, I would still feel violated.
I still feel as though I'd like to break both of his knee caps and force him at gun point to learn how to extract a stereo from a dashboard with the proper tools, but neither of us would benefit, and i would harm myself in the course of doing that. So i should put it out of my mind.
I spent hours and hours repairing my car. I hated every minute of it. I want revenge. But revenge won't really make me feel better, and won't benefit society as a whole. My need for revenge is invalid.
I don't know what drives a guy to develop a mindset where doing what he did is OK. Clearly he wasn't raised right. I personally think he's an as*hole and would just as soon break his nose as tell him the time of day, but i don't know who he is and wouldn't recognize him if i met him.
There is no reason why he can't be retrained and transformed into a worthwhile human being. And THAT is what's best for society.
But in the USA today, we have a justice system that incents finding someone to pay for a crime, rather than incenting identifying the actual perpetrator. We find a good enough defendant and see if we can make it stick. The people who do this sleep at night by telling themselves that even if those weren't the right defendants, they were still "bad people" who "deserved" it. It's BS.
"it costs much more to administer than life imprisonment"
Unless you mean moral cost, surely it does not NEED to? "Take this man outside and dispose of him" Or are you figuring in productive work the prisoner may be compelled to do?
MP is right, from what ive heard. Its counterintuitive but true that feeding and housing a felon for six decades in a prison actually SAVES the taxpayer money over executing him! This is because of the appeals process thats required for the death penalty. The guy get appeals, and then the state has to mount a case against the appeals. So by the time they finnaly really decide to actually go through with toasting you on the chair theyve spent the equivalent of several lifetimes of prison room and board on you on DA's, public defenders, forensics, and other court costs that they wouldnt spend on a prison lifer.
So advocate the death penalty if you will, but dont do it on economic grounds.
MarketAndChurch
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Joined: 3 Apr 2011
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Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
If I understand you correctly, then I don't find that surprising. It is an ethnically white nation we live in... crimes are committed by and against the majority.
The point made is that one should be intellectually honest that they only empathize for "the few" who deserve to die(are on death row), not "the majority" who did die at the hand of these murderers. Just like immigration, compassion to one group often comes at cruelty to another.
And yes, in addition to showing up and protesting this "inhumane" institution, they do sit at candle vigil for the person on death row, and I haven't heard too many cases in which they also do that for the deceased.
That wouldn't be so much an issue if we killed all of the murderers which we know beyond the shadow of a doubt are guilty of murder. I also think that the current justice system, with its flaws, are better then the preference for 100% fair system, or no system at all. It is also odd that even when presented with a hypothetical - wherein we know that a murderer has murdered someone - anti death-penalty supporters are still squeamish about the concept of killing a murderer... I would like to know the values that guide that view. Compassion, I know, but why for the murderer?
Why not end the drug war and decriminalize drugs(which would free up our prisons immensely), use that money to improve prison safety, rehabilitate those who haven't committed murder, and give the death penalty to those who deserve it? It doesn't have to be either-or, the collective subsidizing of all murderers life imprisonment dwarfs the cost to execute the most vile of our society. There are some cases where there are reasons to be suspicious, but most cases of murder is pretty clear cut. The ones that could be considered as being on the fence would take decades in court, but there's no reason that murders that we are 100% sure of should spend as much time in court, especially if it is just to plea for the life of guy on death row.
The State is representative of us. We want it to have a limited role in our lives, and one of those roles is carrying out public executions. Even with all its flaws, it is far more impartial then to have individuals carry out justice - since they are accountable to everyone. What are the devastating consequences from having an attitude of wanting to kill murderers? Why can't we cut costs by killing them off and freeing up our prisons? Why can't we do all of that and help the victims of crimes?
If I leave you one thing it is this:
- You take a life, you don't deserve to keep your own. It is that simple.
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jrjones9933
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Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage
If I understand you correctly, then I don't find that surprising. It is an ethnically white nation we live in... crimes are committed by and against the majority.
Clear now? Kill a white person, and you will more likely face the death penalty than if you kill a black person.
Stats and links to sources earlier in this thread, here.
_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade
You're so...American.
Right. It's about revenge.
Revenge is BS. The victim cannot be made whole, so you should stop losing sleep over it.
I'm not gonna lie... I support the death penalty. As long as it is proved that the offender was not suffering (based on family history, etc) of some kind of condition that could somehow alter his reality, such as schizophrenia, the offender should be eligible to face the death penalty.
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