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mox
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03 Jun 2011, 8:17 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
As for rape being about power and not sex - that's a common thing people say, I'm not really sure how true it is. I think it's likely more about frustration than anything else, it's probably about both.


Seriously????

FYI, yes, it's about control and power. It's not some poor sexually frustrated guy who just can't control himself anymore and has to have it. Jesus.


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03 Jun 2011, 8:23 pm

mox wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
As for rape being about power and not sex - that's a common thing people say, I'm not really sure how true it is. I think it's likely more about frustration than anything else, it's probably about both.


Seriously????

FYI, yes, it's about control and power. It's not some poor sexually frustrated guy who just can't control himself anymore and has to have it. Jesus.


mox is correct. In fact, rape can even be committed with an object, and can be committed by women as well as men.



donnie_darko
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03 Jun 2011, 8:29 pm

mox wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
As for rape being about power and not sex - that's a common thing people say, I'm not really sure how true it is. I think it's likely more about frustration than anything else, it's probably about both.


Seriously????

FYI, yes, it's about control and power. It's not some poor sexually frustrated guy who just can't control himself anymore and has to have it. Jesus.


Sorry if I offended. I do think it's more complicated than that (someone that desperate for sex can just hire a hooker or whatever right?) but to say it has NOTHING to do with sex is just a politically correct thing to say. of course it stems in part from sexual frustration. As for the some people 'just being evil' thing - how do you draw the line between evil and mental illness? Do personality disorders not count as a sickness but delusional disorders do? Personally I think evil is just a word we use for a harmful kind of mental illness that affects some people.

BTW I'm very sorry about what happened to you. Hope you continue to get better, don't let anyone tell you you are ruined!



psychohist
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04 Jun 2011, 12:10 am

donnie_darko wrote:
The reason why rape can't be as bad as murder is because if that were true, logic would follow we should euthanize rape victims, because their life was not worth living anymore.

I understand how you get to that concept, but let me explain why it's mistaken.

If someone steals $20 from me, it's worse than if someone steals $10 from me. However, that doesn't mean that if someone steals $20 from me, I'm better off having another $10 stolen.

My own opinion on relative evil: just as there's a broad range of what constitutes "murder", there's a broad range of what constitutes "rape". An adult having sex with a willing 17 year old is rape, but to my mind it isn't as bad as murder. I grant that some rapes may be worse than some murders. On the original topic, I don't really consider forcible child rape to be worse than forcible rape of an adult; the age shouldn't matter. For whatever reason, though, people like to think that all kids are innocent and wonderful - false - and victimization of children is particularly "bad to think".



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04 Jun 2011, 12:29 am

We (society) do legally have a scale of which crimes are worse. I guess if, based on the average punishment, the ranking would be as follows:
* Genocide.
* Massive Murder
* Massive Rape / Torture
* Murder
* Rape / Torture
* Drug dealing
* Grand theft
* Theft
* Vandalism
* Adultery

Or something like that.


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04 Jun 2011, 12:35 am

While adultry is morally repugnent, it actually is not a crime from a legal standpoint.



Vexcalibur
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04 Jun 2011, 12:39 am

Depends on where you live.


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04 Jun 2011, 1:21 am

This has actually come to me personally today - a friend of mine (an online friend, but dear to me nonetheless) confided in me she has been sexually abused for 3 years from age 13 to 16. I don't really know what to do - I'm afraid she is going to hurt herself. I want her to feel assured and try to convince her happier times are ahead, what can I do?



mox
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04 Jun 2011, 1:36 am

Trying to convince her happier times are ahead makes you feel better, but doesn't help her - not at this moment. That comes later.

I suggest a site like rainn.org for you to get more information for yourself and for her.


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LKL
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04 Jun 2011, 1:48 am

I think the ranking of the crime depends a lot on the individual circumstances. Some rapes are worse than some murders, and vice-versa. Any time there's an element of deliberate torture, it's pretty effing bad.
One problem is that rapists tend to be serial criminals, and murders are more likely to be one-ofs.



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04 Jun 2011, 2:03 am

To the extent that I ponder things like a hierarchy of heinous crimes, I like to apply a simple justification test to the criminal acts. For example, I can easily justify theft to avoid starving, or injuring or even killing someone in self defense. There are some strange grey areas, like in my personal moral universe torturing someone for information is slightly less bad than torturing someone for fun, but generally the principle holds me in good stead. Rape falls into the unambiguous cannot ever be justified category, and so at least for me personally causes more of an outraged reaction than even murder does. Murder I can justify (of rapists, for example).


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04 Jun 2011, 6:56 am

I believe anyones rape or murder should be looked at the same. All rape is bad, and all premeditated murder is bad.



YourMother
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04 Jun 2011, 7:27 am

thewrll wrote:
I believe anyones rape or murder should be looked at the same. All rape is bad, and all premeditated murder is bad.


They may both be bad, but they are also VERY different (both the actual act AND the effects).

psychohist wrote:
An adult having sex with a willing 17 year old is rape...


WHAT!! !?!?!?! erm...I'm not sure about that one...unless the adult is not consenting, of course.

donnie_darko wrote:
It is really bad but I think it pales in comparison to murder.


No.

mox wrote:
I understand that for some, the permanence of murder (death) makes it more significant. I can see that point of view, though I cannot agree with it. I've read all of this thread, and whether you meant to or not, it seemed to me like you are indeed making light of something that causes the victim/survivor years, if not a lifetime, of various issues to overcome. PTSD, substance abuse, pregancy, STD's, self-harm, eating or sleep disorders, flashbacks (physical and mental), depression, and worse. Frankly, a dead person is just dead. The momentary act could have possibly been worse, but there is no lifetime of healing and dealing with it like there is with rape.


This.



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04 Jun 2011, 7:38 am

thewrll wrote:
I believe anyones rape or murder should be looked at the same. All rape is bad, and all premeditated murder is bad.


That's complete nonsense for a start - some rapes are worse than others, just as some assaults are worse than others, just as some murders are worse than others.

Would you see being made to have sex with someone you went out on a date with but where force wasn't used or would you see being aducted, viciously beaten, raped and sodomised (possibly including internal bleeding) for hours by a gang of violent strangers as worse?

Different crimes need different punishments. Neither of the above two are 'good' but one is clearly more serious than the other.



Last edited by Tequila on 04 Jun 2011, 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

WilliamWDelaney
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04 Jun 2011, 7:39 am

YourMother wrote:
There seems to be a general belief in Western society today that child-rape is "the worst crime one is possible to commit" or "the worst thing one can possibly do" etcetera, but as far as I'm concerned, rape is rape. It is THE WORST commonly occurring thing that can be done to someone, and the victim's age doesn't really make it any more/less bad. Discuss.
Well, the developing nervous system is pretty fragile, and various kinds of abuse can have a lasting impact. For example, a child who is frequently shouted at might tend to jump at loud noises even much later in life.

I have actually known a few victims of child sexual abuse. Firstly, the cases I am talking about here were either violent or under other abusive conditions. All of them suffer from panic disorder, and a few of them tend to engage in self-harming behavior. I understand that this is common in victims of child sexual abuse (CSA).

However, I understand that children who have childhood bipolar disorder tend to have drastically altered sexualities, and these weirdo cases should not under any circumstances be judged according to a kind of abstract "morality" that is clunky and impervious to actual reality. Such weirdo cases invariably pose gray areas that should be handled delicately and by someone who is an expert at making helpful determinations in such complex cases.

Therefore, we need to be firm in general against our rejection of CSA, but as with all aspects of our society we must try our best to continue thinking clearly when we are presented with cases that offer complexities that are not being taken into account in our generalized reactions. When there is uncertainty, we should abstain from making our own judgments and have faith our legal system and community fabric to form a reaction that is meaningful in the specific case with which we have been presented. In general, though, I think that our reaction to CSA is perfectly appropriate based on the consequences of it that I have witnessed.

Rape in general, though, is an absolutely unacceptable crime because it is a form of assault that is designed to degrade and devalue another human being as well as anything that might be connected with him or her. It is in some ways worse than murder because murder at the very least can spare the victim a certain degree of dignity. We must not ever allow rape to be considered to be an acceptable behavior because it degrades and devalues our entire society, not just the victim, when this crime is committed. Sexual assault on even the most shunned and disliked person in the world is an assault on all of us.



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04 Jun 2011, 7:53 am

"Date rape" is viewed much more harshly in the States than in Europe.
In Europe, the conviction rate is almost zero, and both men and women will blame the victim and suggest she was "asking for it".