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mindgame
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23 Jun 2011, 12:20 pm

I wonder if anyone would care to weigh in on this . . .

I strive to be very exact in my word choice, but in my experience, I find that, far too often, NTs speak and write quite carelessly and imprecisely. In certain situations, I might be accused of taking something too literally simply because I took a person's spoken or written word at face value, when (supposedly) I ought to have figured out intuitively what they really meant to say.

For example, my supervisor sent an e-mail asking me to "send" her my timesheet. I thought this was odd, since typically I'm supposed to print out and sign my timesheet before submitting it to her. But I read the word "send" and think she must mean e-mail it to her. After I did this, she wrote back and said, "No, you have to print it and sign it," as if I'm an idiot and didn't know this. In my view of this, she chose a very poor word. She ought to have written "leave me your timesheet," or even "get your timesheet to me."

Does anyone else find themselves encountering these kinds of communication traps?



lelia
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23 Jun 2011, 12:45 pm

Yes. And I'm naive too.



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23 Jun 2011, 12:49 pm

I would have done the exact same thing. Last time I had an obvious miscommunication was last week. It went something like this:

NT A: "I'm so glad we put that away on Monday night."
Me: "What?"
NT A: "I said I'm glad me and NT B put that away."
Me: "What are you talking about? Put what away?"
(I was thinking she was talking about something that she had outside that couldn't get wet, because it rained the night before. But the night before was Tuesday night, and she said specifically Monday, which didn't make any sense.)
NT A: "The argument we got into."
Me: "Well, why couldn't you have just said that? You were confusing the crap out of me."
NT A: "Did you understand what I meant, NT C?"
NT C: "yup."
NT A: "You're so literal minded."


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League_Girl
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23 Jun 2011, 1:02 pm

Yes I do. I probably would have done the same thing as you. When I read the word send, I took it as email her the time sheet. People speak this way because they figure we use our common sense and do what we are supposed to do, not listen to their words. I call it lazy talk.

I remember when I was 22, my office clerk told me to bring up five (or six) rollaway beds. I bring them up and go back to work. At the end of my shift he asks me why didn't I make them and I say something like I was never told to and he told me I was supposed to use my common sense and I should know this stuff because I had been working there for how long? He also told me he is so busy he can't spoonful words to people. Luckily I knew what he meant by that (but I still pictured him holding out a spoon with words on it and giving it to his workers and they open their mouths and take the words) but seriously, it takes no more than five seconds to say "And make them" after telling me to bring them up. But at my autism group Roger Meyers was on his side because he said because I had been working there for months, he figured I would know how to do my job without him spelling it out to me. I felt dumb.



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23 Jun 2011, 1:21 pm

I recently started a topic on this very subject. Taking things literally is one of the most common AS traits, and I haven’t escaped it either. It’s not much of a problem, except when people accuse me of doing it intentionally just to F with them.



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23 Jun 2011, 1:43 pm

Well, how's this. I read the subject title about 10 times because even though I know what you meant, "taking things literally" is ambiguous and I felt compelled to rewrite it in my head several different ways to remove the fuzziness. I invented a half a dozen rewrites all that taken literally, would mean something different, even though their derivations from the original title was clear.

Sorry.

I'll go away now. :roll:


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Icyclan
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23 Jun 2011, 2:15 pm

I had a situation like that just the other day. A friend of mine jokingly asked me what a certain German word (Hauptschalter) meant. I thought it was strange that he wouldn't know that, but I replied anyway:

Me: Main switch.
He: (starts laughing) Of course I know what that means, you thought I was serious?
Me: I suppose I just have a low opinion of you.


I find that when people think you're dim or something, you can switch things around by being a bit condescending.



Malisha
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23 Jun 2011, 2:25 pm

Icyclan wrote:
I had a situation like that just the other day. A friend of mine jokingly asked me what a certain German word (Hauptschalter) meant. I thought it was strange that he wouldn't know that, but I replied anyway:

Me: Main switch.
He: (starts laughing) Of course I know what that means, you thought I was serious?
Me: I suppose I just have a low opinion of you.


I find that when people think you're dim or something, you can switch things around by being a bit condescending.


I can't recover that quickly from a misunderstanding, myself. Good on you for being able to come back so ably.

I personally have found that I have more of a problem with other people putting meaning into my words that aren't there, than I do with taking them literally. The only reason for that is I'm very used to asking for clarity. I'll ask very specific questions, especially if I'm at work and given instructions.
It's frustrating because I don't have control over my own tone of voice. Tone of voice is my Waterloo! As good as my compensating methods are in other areas, I still regularly have people think I'm being sarcastic, clever, or making a joke when I'm not, or being serious when I'm joking. I understand from CONTEXT when things are sarcastic, but I can't hear the tone out of context, nor can I reproduce it.
IRKSOME!



Icyclan
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23 Jun 2011, 2:39 pm

Malisha wrote:
Icyclan wrote:
I had a situation like that just the other day. A friend of mine jokingly asked me what a certain German word (Hauptschalter) meant. I thought it was strange that he wouldn't know that, but I replied anyway:

Me: Main switch.
He: (starts laughing) Of course I know what that means, you thought I was serious?
Me: I suppose I just have a low opinion of you.


I find that when people think you're dim or something, you can switch things around by being a bit condescending.


I can't recover that quickly from a misunderstanding, myself. Good on you for being able to come back so ably.

I personally have found that I have more of a problem with other people putting meaning into my words that aren't there, than I do with taking them literally. The only reason for that is I'm very used to asking for clarity. I'll ask very specific questions, especially if I'm at work and given instructions.
It's frustrating because I don't have control over my own tone of voice. Tone of voice is my Waterloo! As good as my compensating methods are in other areas, I still regularly have people think I'm being sarcastic, clever, or making a joke when I'm not, or being serious when I'm joking. I understand from CONTEXT when things are sarcastic, but I can't hear the tone out of context, nor can I reproduce it.
IRKSOME!


I always wondered how NTs seem to know instinctively what's being asked of them when given a task with only vague instructions. I need to be told exactly what to do. If not, I will do the task according to how I see fit, which most of the time differs significantly from how an NT would deal with it.



Barrett
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23 Jun 2011, 2:50 pm

yeah, I have similar.

I miss tone-of-voice, and the common sense and implications behind the lazy-talk and sarcasm all the time. Not so much anymore, but I had a huge problem with this when I was younger.

My first jobs, I would go out and do some work, usually with a co-worker or a team. Sometimes, obviously, I'd do something stupid or miss something, or fail to give some assistance at the right time. Then, my co-worker might say something like, "Gee, thanks alot for helping out with that one," and then, I thought he WAS actually complimenting me and i actually did a good job. i see 99.5% of this kind of thing at my age now, but when I was a teenager, I completely missed stuff like this. I would think that I WAS actually being praised, when at that time I was being mocked for my lack of presence.

Same thing, in school, I might say something academically profound, but then my peers or teacher (mabye I had been a tatlle-tale, etc,) would say, "Way to go Einstein," or something like that. The thing is that I would actually think they were comparing me favorable to einstein, rather than just completely mocking me.

(I've learned btw over the years to tone down my academic brilliance and feign "the common touch.") ...... this really makes it easier on the whole to sort of help me fit in and work better with blue-collar people. Sad but true, it kind of helps go gloss-over alot of these social errors regarding 'literal-thinking,' when you can sort of dumb down and take yourself down to others' level. It sounds really bad I know, but its pretty much the best way to sort of fly under the radar and function anywhere long-term, without outcasting yourself becasue you don't fit in or come off as snobbish, or letting your little social errors fester too much because you are already inherently different.



Malisha
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23 Jun 2011, 3:02 pm

Icyclan wrote:

I always wondered how NTs seem to know instinctively what's being asked of them when given a task with only vague instructions. I need to be told exactly what to do. If not, I will do the task according to how I see fit, which most of the time differs significantly from how an NT would deal with it.


I have the same difficulty, which is why I'm so grateful for my current job. I'm a part-time janitor at a home improvement retail store, and I work independently with little instruction or control over HOW i do my job. If it's dirty, i clean it. If it's broken, i fix it. Autism is actually a help with my job, since I'm mechanically inclined and have an understanding of how to use chemicals and cleaners. It appears that my coworkers consider me eccentric, but very capable.
It's kind of amusing how many of them still ask me, "how do you do____?", when they should know that they're going to get a detailed and step by step instructional explanation that makes their eyes glaze over. The joke's on them!! !

Although there are many frustrating things about my job(like having to put in for time off 30 days in advance, or having to get a guy fired for harassing me), it worth every annoyance to finally be LEFT THE FRIG ALONE so I can do my job. I've been with the company for 2 1/2 years now, and it's the perfect method of support as I complete my degrees.



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23 Jun 2011, 3:23 pm

I have similar problems....and just now, reading through everybody's posts, I think I'm starting to understand what others on the spectrum say when they talk about precision being important to their understanding of words. (Like wavefreak58, I'm having problems with the word "literal".)

Personally, I've never thought about my issues with understanding people as being primarily related to the precision of language--it's hard for me to figure out what people when mean they talk about the importance of precision (when it comes to understanding what other people say or to being understood).

But reading the anecdotes that mindgame and SammichEater used got me thinking about something I've read over and over: People, (especially neurotypical people), tend to "talk in shorthand"-- I understand this metaphorically:

Imagine I gave you a single line of notes that I used when brainstorming for/planning a 10-page essay about the creation of social constructs. The line reads: "social construct, norms--feedback." Imagine I then expected you to understand my entire essay based on that single line of shorthand--to understand every point I intended to make, every example I had in mind, every aspect of the context I intended to use..

....Would you be able to do that? And if so, to what extent? (It's not really a rhetorical question because I don't know the possible answers...but I don't expect anybody to answer either--although I am curious)? If I were you, in that imaginary situation, I would not be able to figure out any of your intended points, examples, or context.....it seems like conversation, more often than not, involves people giving me one or two lines of their notes and expecting me to understand the essays they have in mind.

Thinking about this now, I realize that "precision" and "talking in shorthand" are inextricably linked: The fewer words you use, the more precise you have to be to get your intended message across (at least in theory)--one spoken/written or short phrase is supposed to mean far more, in context, than it actually does by itself....it seems like a "cue" of sorts. I seem to have problems with using words as "cues" to fill in unspoken context--the less precision someone uses when choosing their "cue" word(s), the harder it is for me to figure out what they're talking about.



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23 Jun 2011, 3:39 pm

mindgame wrote:
For example, my supervisor sent an e-mail asking me to "send" her my timesheet. I thought this was odd, since typically I'm supposed to print out and sign my timesheet before submitting it to her. But I read the word "send" and think she must mean e-mail it to her. After I did this, she wrote back and said, "No, you have to print it and sign it," as if I'm an idiot and didn't know this. In my view of this, she chose a very poor word. She ought to have written "leave me your timesheet," or even "get your timesheet to me."


That situation would absolutely confound me. I'd probably spend the rest of the day in a mild panic, thinking that maybe I should send it because she said "send" and why would she say it if she didn't mean it, and thinking that maybe I should just print and sign it because those are the rules, gosh darnit! Agh, just thinking about it gets me agitated. I hate it when people just don't say what they mean.

The worst ones for me are driving directions, though. I get so easily thrown off, firstly because I just have a horrible sense of direction and secondly because I take directions literally. If someone tells me (just for example) to take the third left by the McDonalds, but the McDonalds is actually on the FOURTH left, I panic. Did they mean to take the third left or the one by the McDonalds? Then I get miserably lost.



Malisha
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23 Jun 2011, 3:40 pm

animalcrackers wrote:
I have similar problems....and just now, reading through everybody's posts, I think I'm starting to understand what others on the spectrum say when they talk about precision being important to their understanding of words. (Like wavefreak58, I'm having problems with the word "literal".)

Personally, I've never thought about my issues with understanding people as being primarily related to the precision of language--it's hard for me to figure out what people when mean they talk about the importance of precision (when it comes to understanding what other people say or to being understood).

But reading the anecdotes that mindgame and SammichEater used got me thinking about something I've read over and over: People, (especially neurotypical people), tend to "talk in shorthand"-- I understand this metaphorically:

Imagine I gave you a single line of notes that I used when brainstorming for/planning a 10-page essay about the creation of social constructs. The line reads: "social construct, norms--feedback." Imagine I then expected you to understand my entire essay based on that single line of shorthand--to understand every point I intended to make, every example I had in mind, every aspect of the context I intended to use..

....Would you be able to do that? And if so, to what extent? (It's not really a rhetorical question because I don't know the possible answers...but I don't expect anybody to answer either--although I am curious)? If I were you, in that imaginary situation, I would not be able to figure out any of your intended points, examples, or context.....it seems like conversation, more often than not, involves people giving me one or two lines of their notes and expecting me to understand the essays they have in mind.

Thinking about this now, I realize that "precision" and "talking in shorthand" are inextricably linked: The fewer words you use, the more precise you have to be to get your intended message across (at least in theory)--one spoken/written or short phrase is supposed to mean far more, in context, than it actually does by itself....it seems like a "cue" of sorts. I seem to have problems with using words as "cues" to fill in unspoken context--the less precision someone uses when choosing their "cue" word(s), the harder it is for me to figure out what they're talking about.



I most likely COULD understand your ten page essay from a line of shorthand. Why? Because it's one step removed from "real life". I work very well with things that have to do with whole giant webs of information, and relating them to whole other giant webs of information. I'm a consummate writer in the arts and humanities. I can do research, reference, and exposition like nobody's freaking business. If i take myself out of a situation, I do much, much better.

The reason I am able to function semi-normally for short periods of time is because I'm running those "nets" and probabilities WHILE I'm interacting with humans in my day-to-day life. Unfortunately there are holes in my "nets" of every possible way a person can react. As long as they stick to common social scripts, I'm good. When it fails, as it does fairly often, I have a bevy of noncommittal and pleasant responses. When THOSE fail, I forgive myself, and go home and take a nap. :)



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23 Jun 2011, 4:32 pm

Malisha wrote:
I most likely COULD understand your ten page essay from a line of shorthand. Why? Because it's one step removed from "real life". I work very well with things that have to do with whole giant webs of information, and relating them to whole other giant webs of information. I'm a consummate writer in the arts and humanities. I can do research, reference, and exposition like nobody's freaking business. If i take myself out of a situation, I do much, much better.

The reason I am able to function semi-normally for short periods of time is because I'm running those "nets" and probabilities WHILE I'm interacting with humans in my day-to-day life. Unfortunately there are holes in my "nets" of every possible way a person can react. As long as they stick to common social scripts, I'm good. When it fails, as it does fairly often, I have a bevy of noncommittal and pleasant responses. When THOSE fail, I forgive myself, and go home and take a nap. Smile


That makes sense. I can't think of all the known (by me) possibilities in a conversation/social exchange simultaneously, sometimes I can't think of any; I may have knowledge of a relevant social script but can't apply that knowledge to an interaction (can't link the situations I know the script to be a part of with the situation at hand--except in retrospect, sometimes)....hence my issues with understanding what people mean when their words are ambiguous and delivered in "shorthand". Thanks for your answer :)



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23 Jun 2011, 4:45 pm

I totally understand what you mean. I get this a lot from my partner. We fight over it loads. I pick her up on a word. A semantic. I dont get her sarcasm. I then try, in great detail to explain why I did what I did. And that just makes her even more cross.

Eg. She worries about looking massive. (she is pregnant). I try to be all NT and say darling you look very normal. She blows up and says do you thinking am massive normally. You bastard etc....

Later, I try to use her words. Darling you are blooming, you look massive. (showing how proud i am of her developing bump). And she goes ballistic. You say I look massive?

I try to explain I am only using her own words but she erupts and says horrible things to me.

I just dont get NT thinking.

I try to do/say the right thing but I never seem to. It all gets taken the wrong way.


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