Email from WP to ARC request debate on WP with S.B Cohen.

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KimberKenobi
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15 Nov 2011, 7:56 pm

I want to first state that I didn't bother to go through all 4 pages, so my thought that what you initially wrote is both appropriate and HI-larious may come too little too late...

However, what I really wanted to state is that when I was first approached with the hypothesis that I has Asperger's, I naturally started reading all about AS. I bought Tony Attwood's (if I misspelled or incorrectly listed his name, I really don't care) book and make it most of the way through before becoming utterly disgusted with how he wrote about AS - he made us sound like some form of inferior lab rat meant to be dissected and disposed of. I stopped reading his book and switched primarily to books written by people with AS or NT's who wrote about their AS loved ones as those books made people with AS sound human.


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20 Nov 2011, 9:53 pm

KimberKenobi wrote:
I want to first state that I didn't bother to go through all 4 pages, so my thought that what you initially wrote is both appropriate and HI-larious may come too little too late...

However, what I really wanted to state is that when I was first approached with the hypothesis that I has Asperger's, I naturally started reading all about AS. I bought Tony Attwood's (if I misspelled or incorrectly listed his name, I really don't care) book and make it most of the way through before becoming utterly disgusted with how he wrote about AS - he made us sound like some form of inferior lab rat meant to be dissected and disposed of. I stopped reading his book and switched primarily to books written by people with AS or NT's who wrote about their AS loved ones as those books made people with AS sound human.


It's funny that you say that. I found Attwood's book to be extremely helpful and he is a long time supporter of the Neurodiversity movement.

He has tremendous respect for autistic individuals, and speaks often of autism being a vital component of human evolution.

I'm really not sure how you came to these conclusions.


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20 Nov 2011, 9:56 pm

Alex asked me to interview Cohen for the homepage, so I left him a message. Hopefully I will hear from him soon.

I may have to read through this thread to see what you guys are interested in asking him. Ugh, long thread.

I do want the interview to address the specific interests of our online community here.

I've also contacted some leading professionals in autism research. Expect some stimulating stuff to pop up on the homepage.


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You may know me from my column here on WrongPlanet. I'm also writing a book for AAPC. Visit my Facebook page for links to articles I've written for Autism Speaks and other websites.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JohnScott ... 8723228267


Last edited by Tambourine-Man on 21 Nov 2011, 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

KimberKenobi
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20 Nov 2011, 10:22 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
It's funny that you say that. I found Attwood's book to be extremely helpful and he is a long time supporter of the Neurodiversity movement.


While I can admit that my initial impression of his book may be clouded by my feelings and processes going through accepting that I was not "normal" I will state that I was already quite familiar with Temple Grandin as I was an Agriculture Major and we studied some of her work (and I had already read through her book while in college). After taking a few of the online tests I bought Attwood's book. After reading some of the items in the book (particularly parts about relationships) I found 2 other books ('Asperger Syndrome and Long-term relationships' by Ashley Stanford and 'Aspergers in Love' by Maxine Aston) which I felt were worded much better and made me feel like a person who does care (as they explained or helped me work through many of my confused feelings about relationships) and who is worthy of caring about. I didn't feel that same way while reading Attwood's book... I felt it was too clinical and cold. It may be easier for some, but when you're scared and worried about feelings and relationships, Attwood may not be the book to go running to if you do have a great deal of caring and concern for others. (Regardless of whether you always understand why or what the appropriate feeling is.)

I don't feel that his book "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" was aimed at helping Aspies understand themselves or how to cope, it was aimed at enlightening the world of his discoveries about how we act, react, and interact. I do not doubt that the issues in his book are true representations, it just struck a distasteful cord with me as I was just discovering all this "different-ness" that I had not before really considered.

/thread hi-jack, sorry.

Then again, I supported him by not only purchasing, but keeping his book so I must've thought it useful.


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ahsanhussain
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28 Dec 2011, 3:27 am

wordpress is the best CMS plat form i am yuse last 3 years



danuk
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30 Dec 2011, 10:58 pm

KimberKenobi wrote:
Tambourine-Man wrote:
It's funny that you say that. I found Attwood's book to be extremely helpful and he is a long time supporter of the Neurodiversity movement.


While I can admit that my initial impression of his book may be clouded by my feelings and processes going through accepting that I was not "normal" I will state that I was already quite familiar with Temple Grandin as I was an Agriculture Major and we studied some of her work (and I had already read through her book while in college). After taking a few of the online tests I bought Attwood's book. After reading some of the items in the book (particularly parts about relationships) I found 2 other books ('Asperger Syndrome and Long-term relationships' by Ashley Stanford and 'Aspergers in Love' by Maxine Aston) which I felt were worded much better and made me feel like a person who does care (as they explained or helped me work through many of my confused feelings about relationships) and who is worthy of caring about. I didn't feel that same way while reading Attwood's book... I felt it was too clinical and cold. It may be easier for some, but when you're scared and worried about feelings and relationships, Attwood may not be the book to go running to if you do have a great deal of caring and concern for others. (Regardless of whether you always understand why or what the appropriate feeling is.)

I don't feel that his book "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" was aimed at helping Aspies understand themselves or how to cope, it was aimed at enlightening the world of his discoveries about how we act, react, and interact. I do not doubt that the issues in his book are true representations, it just struck a distasteful cord with me as I was just discovering all this "different-ness" that I had not before really considered.

/thread hi-jack, sorry.

Then again, I supported him by not only purchasing, but keeping his book so I must've thought it useful.


I went out with a social worker for a number of years as she finished her degree and started work. The style of the book fits in with social work style books on other topics. I didn't find the style distasteful as he wasn't speaking to me or people like me but to everyone who wanted to study AS. I didn't want to feel like I was being cared for or to have an NT telling me who I was. I wanted cold clinical information as a starting point.



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09 Feb 2012, 2:22 pm

There seems to be some discord aboard this vessel. I believe the mission was to establish contact with this being & engage in meaningful debate. Or even simple questions..
Most of the Aspergers Syndrome books I've had access to (so far) are pretty clinical, as I was brought up with my folks hoping I'd become some kind of doctor or scientist (obviously, pro sports was OUT! LOL) clinical is OK with me. Just as long as they can be a little bit positive in their conclusions.

Sincerely,
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02 Mar 2012, 10:06 am

I have finally gotten around to reading this thread. Thanks for starting it memesplice. I think the basic idea is great: for our web-based autistic community to communicate directly with researchers like SBC who are studying autism spectrum. I am wondering two things:

Has Tambourine-Man had any success in getting a response from SBC as far interviewing him for a WP front page article? This sounds like a good way to start things. He's a researcher, with books for sale, and a human ego. To interview him would show deference to his expertise, expose him to our existence here at WP, and perhaps warm him up to more direct communication.

If he has not responded so far, I would not take that as a "No". People like him are very busy, with many irons in the fire so to speak, and things get overlooked. I would suggest gentle, but persistent (like maybe monthly) reminders that we here at WP are very interested in reading an interview with him. Also letting him know that WP also has a lot of members who are NTs with children, spouses or other loved ones on the spectrum would help him see that the audience is broader than just us autistic types.

Second: To me a "debate" seems like the wrong approach. To him, we are the subjects of his study. One does not debate with the subjects of a study. (We have to use our own brand of ToM here to see it from his perspective). But, he is obviously interested in us, and from the videos I have seen of him may very well BE one of us, or a BAP at the least.

I would suggest a "conversation" in which he can informally interview us through a thread specificly started here for the purpose, as a follow up to the WP front page interview with him. In other words, get him in the WP door by volunteering to be "subjects" for his further study. Then, we will have the opportunity to help him understand the deeper dimensions of our thinking style, how we experience empathy, ask questions of him and answer his, and maybe even get him to reflect on his own Aspie qualities. Then maybe he will write another book enlarging his theories based on his new direct experience with us and help to debunk some of the negative stereotypes that are out there about AS.



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09 Mar 2012, 9:57 am

Baron Cohen is not exactly my favorite "expert" when it comes to autism.
His theories are too narrow minded and simplistic in my opinion. He still seems to think that aspergers is just a form of extreme male thinking which is ridiculous. It is a well known fact that other forms of autism affect both men and woman so why shouldn't that be the case with aspergers? I came across some tests that where developed by Baron Cohen on this forum and on the internet and I seriously doubt if they should be used to diagnose aspergers because of the fact that they have many flaws and therefore lack credebility. I did a test on this forum that measures the capacity to recognize various eye expressions. I scored pretty low which was te be expected since I have been officially diagnosed with aspergers despite the fact that I am female. The flaw of this paticular test was the fact that all of these pictures of different eye expressions where shown without any context whatsoever. In day to day life you see a person as a whole and not only a pair of eyes and different eye expressions coincide with different (social) situations. It is very hard to interpret eye expressions without a context, even for an NT.

Baron Cohen probably got interested in autism because he has quite a few traits himself and his rigid tunnelvision when it comes to aspergers is just one example.



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10 Mar 2012, 4:48 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
Alex asked me to interview Cohen for the homepage, so I left him a message. Hopefully I will hear from him soon.

I may have to read through this thread to see what you guys are interested in asking him. Ugh, long thread.

I do want the interview to address the specific interests of our online community here.

I've also contacted some leading professionals in autism research. Expect some stimulating stuff to pop up on the homepage.


I would suggest that you stroke his ego when you email him.

Eg. "The huge user-base of WP looks to you for leadership in their efforts to live their best life with ASD. Many of them have read your ground-breaking research and have found your cutting-edge books to be must-reads."

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:



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10 Mar 2012, 6:45 pm

pokerface wrote:
The flaw of this paticular test was the fact that all of these pictures of different eye expressions where shown without any context whatsoever. In day to day life you see a person as a whole and not only a pair of eyes and different eye expressions coincide with different (social) situations. It is very hard to interpret eye expressions without a context, even for an NT.


This is interesting. When I took the eye test, I got a pretty good score. I was surprised and then thought the opposite of what you just said above. That when I see expressions in context, all the other information is blocking my ability to fluidly interperate the eye expressions. When they are "pure" and out of context, it is easier to know what they are. I also studied Paul Eckman's work in college so maybe underwent a learning curve in identifying them.

pokerface wrote:
Baron Cohen probably got interested in autism because he has quite a few traits himself and his rigid tunnelvision when it comes to aspergers is just one example.


Good point!



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10 Mar 2012, 9:25 pm

emtyeye wrote:
pokerface wrote:
The flaw of this paticular test was the fact that all of these pictures of different eye expressions where shown without any context whatsoever. In day to day life you see a person as a whole and not only a pair of eyes and different eye expressions coincide with different (social) situations. It is very hard to interpret eye expressions without a context, even for an NT.


This is interesting. When I took the eye test, I got a pretty good score. I was surprised and then thought the opposite of what you just said above. That when I see expressions in context, all the other information is blocking my ability to fluidly interperate the eye expressions. When they are "pure" and out of context, it is easier to know what they are. I also studied Paul Eckman's work in college so maybe underwent a learning curve in identifying them.

pokerface wrote:
Baron Cohen probably got interested in autism because he has quite a few traits himself and his rigid tunnelvision when it comes to aspergers is just one example.


Good point!


I am not very good at recognizing eye expressions and facial expressions. When there is a context in the form of a social situation however, it is possible to deduce certain eye expressions and facial expressions by logical thinking and by making the connection between cause and effect. It is far more difficult to interpret eye- and facial expressions without a paticular social situation. I'm probably not making myself clear but I hope you understand what I mean.



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25 Mar 2012, 3:47 am

This made me giggle. 'Species' made me giggle 2x.



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25 Mar 2012, 3:30 pm

slave wrote:
Tambourine-Man wrote:
Alex asked me to interview Cohen for the homepage, so I left him a message. Hopefully I will hear from him soon.

I may have to read through this thread to see what you guys are interested in asking him. Ugh, long thread.

I do want the interview to address the specific interests of our online community here.

I've also contacted some leading professionals in autism research. Expect some stimulating stuff to pop up on the homepage.


I would suggest that you stroke his ego when you email him.

Eg. "The huge user-base of WP looks to you for leadership in their efforts to live their best life with ASD. Many of them have read your ground-breaking research and have found your cutting-edge books to be must-reads."

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:


Wouldn't want to be interperted as sarcastic.



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19 Apr 2012, 3:38 pm

I've exchanged emails with Simon Baron-Cohen on about three separate occasions and he's always responded very quickly, sometimes withn the same day and with interesting replies

I did manage to offend him in one exchange when I compared doing research 'just to further scientific knowledge', which he said a lot of autism research was all about, with the research Dr Mengele did during the Holocaust ie he experiemnted on people 'just for the sake of it', to further his scientific knowledge, so there is a direct comparison to be made as long as emotions aren't brought into it.

Unfortunately SBC did bring emotion into it though as he said he found it exceedingly bad taste as he had relatives affected by the Holocaust or something like that. I was surprised a person so keen on science would try and shut down debate using emotion like that. I know the Holocaust was off-the-scale bad - no one needs to tell me that, but it remains a fact that Mengele experiemented for his own curiosity which is the same as they appear to be doing re autism research. To say someone is doing something similar to someone else does not mean you think they are doing it in the same way as them or that you think they have the same ethics as them at all, it just means there is a certain parallel.

I had initally said to SBC that wasn't all this searching for the cause of autism going to lead to a test that would ultimately lead to autism being eradicated? He said no, a lot of research was just being done to further scientific knowledge with no particular commercial aim. This might be true to an extent but are you telling me that the first person to discover exactly which genes cause autism isn't going to quickly patent a test for it?! Yeah right!

I communicated with SBC again after that difficult exchange re Mengele so he had presumably forgiven me for it.

I have to say it defintely affected my thoughts on him as his answer was what I would term totally unscientific but then if he was emotionally affected by the Holocaust to a great degree I suppose he might not have been capable of keeping his emotions out of it ie he's only human
and we all have things that make us react strongly.

One does wonder what his opinion is of his cousin Sacha Baron-Cohen with his Borat character singing songs with lyrics like 'throw the Jew down the well' - I hope he has challenged him on his exceedingly bad taste as well but I bet he hasn't as it's invariably one rule for us and another for their NT buddies eh?

If you want to ask him a question, just ask it in a straightforward manner and you should get a reply pretty quickly - that's been my experience anyway.



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19 Apr 2012, 8:47 pm

Quote:
ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.


Interesting. Theory of mind is one of the main reasons I don't identify with Asperger's, as it is described in the literature. I am not impaired in this area, if anything, I have above-average capabilities here.

But affective empathy, here I am severely impaired. I'm very quick to understand why someone else is upset, and very good at resolving conflicts that stem from a misunderstanding. But I have a great deal of difficulty accessing my emotions, so affective empathy is extremely difficult.

My technique for comforting people or defusing situations is basically solution-based, and I'm really good at that. I can help people work through their feelings, provide insight, defuse misunderstandings, all these sorts of things. But of course there are many situations where there is no solution. Someone in grief over a loss, for instance, I am absolutely terrible at that sort of thing.