Email from WP to ARC request debate on WP with S.B Cohen.

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aghogday
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09 Aug 2011, 10:21 pm

Listening to the the answers in the interview, it seems like Cohen when pressed, doesn't deny much of what we are theorizing here: that some people with Autism have greater levels of empathy than others; that some have a great deal of affective empathy without the cognitive empathy; that some have deficits in both; and some are extreme cognitive system empathizers to the point where we expect people to play by the rules that we determine they should play by, from our own personal cognitive studies.

And, last but not least, empathy is not a static quality, it is affected by environment and can be muted or enhanced depending on circumstances; we learn TOM, but not necessarily as quickly as others.

I'm not trying to suggest he has aspergers, but he is obviously an extreme systemizer himself. Just out of curiosity, I did a search to see if anyone had an idea of what his personal SQ/EQ score is. Wasn't anywhere to be found; I'm surprised no one has asked him this question, but I guess it would take someone that thinks a little bit like him to ask him that question.

Scientists tested by Cohen's SQ/EQ tests score in the high range of SQ; Cohen is a scientist, so I'm not sure why he would be immune to what he is studying.

He doesn't seem to understand the emotional quotient too well, otherwise I doubt he would have called the theory the extreme male brain theory of Autism, focusing on the systemizing/empathy effect, ignoring so many other variables that are gendercentric. Definitely a sign of rigid thinking.

If he had been thinking out of the box he might have used the more detailed gender type brain tests and compared those to the SQ/EQ tests, as has been done on this site, although not a scientifically controlled measure.

If the results were the same as they have been here, I think he might have used a different term; perhaps extreme systemizing mind theory of Autism. On this site most women and men have scored high on the systemizing part of the tests with the SQ/EQ test of Cohen, but on the other hand, in the Brain Sex IQ test, that is much more comprehensive, the results are all over the board with women scoring higher than men at times, but most of the scores fairly neutral for both men and women.

Listening to him talk about autism and listening to Bill Gates talk about computers, would we be able to distinguish a difference, if we weren't previously aware that Gates was reported to have Aspergers?

Is there anything about Bill Gate's Aspergers that is impairing his life? He seems like one of the most well adjusted people that I have ever seen in the media. Whatever problems he may have had, he has adapted extremely well with his cognitive abilities. If there are similarities it is a focus and drive for each individual's special interests.

I think Cohen might be a bit "Bappy". My understanding is he came up with the Broad Autism Phenotype too.

He started out working, with Autistic Children that were severely debilitated with learning disabilities; it became his focus and passion to systematically understand the children as more than feral human beings; there is the potential that many of us could have been in similar situations, without a full understanding that we shared some of the same traits to a lesser degree.

As he stated in the interview, people with a lesser degree of empathy, do not understand themselves in relation to others as well as those with normal levels of empathy. If, so, he would not be immune to this either, so he might not be able to see it in himself as well.

I haven't seen a scientist yet, that I would measure as having a balance of SQ and EQ yet. most though, light up, when it is time to talk about their specific areas of interest.



youngdoug
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10 Aug 2011, 2:15 am

Quote:
Listening to the the answers in the interview, it seems like Cohen when pressed, doesn't deny much of what we are theorizing here: that some people with Autism have greater levels of empathy than others; that some have a great deal of affective empathy without the cognitive empathy; that some have deficits in both; and some are extreme cognitive system empathizers to the point where we expect people to play by the rules that we determine they should play by, from our own personal cognitive studies.

And, last but not least, empathy is not a static quality, it is affected by environment and can be muted or enhanced depending on circumstances; we learn TOM, but not necessarily as quickly as others
.

I haven't read the book yet but it seems that:
a) His definition of Empathy is shared universally
b) It's an overarching hypothesis, statistically derived (mainstream book - some cherry picking likely). Characteristics of individuals can't be derived from it.

Unfortunately a shedload (sic) of humans can not do nuance, ideas or statistical thinking. So they stereotype. After all, why use a brain if you can waste it?

SBC might be very wrong here, but I'm not sure that that is important to him. The book is likely enough a piece of speculative imagining/semi-trolling/flying a kite/profile raising.


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11 Aug 2011, 11:55 am

I think that what it comes down to is that there are absolutely no absolutes.

All of this stuff is broad generalizations, assumptions and occassionaly some statistical analysis thrown in to support the case.

At the end of the day, we're all different and the more that the definition is narrowed, the more people end up falling outside of the criteria. However, if the definition is too broad, then it becomes meaningless. Baren-Cohen is in a difficult position of being expected to create very specificly shaped and sized pigeonholes and then being criticized because some of the pigeons fail to fit.

With that said, I do agree that a forum like this would provide an excellent sounding board for refining the definitions.

I'm new to all of this, but I've always beleived that it was wrong (not morally, but from an accuracy perspective) to say that someone "lacks empathy" or "lacks intelligence" or is "anti social" just because they're not typical in the way that their brain works. I'm a very compassionate person. I generally value the wellfare of other above my own. I'll help a stranger in need, I'll patiently listen to a friend who needs an ear, I love to teach. However, I find social pleasentries to be a waste of time. I have a very rational mind and I'll tend to be overly blunt and my ability to understand what others are feeling is more akin to Jane Goodall studying the apes than it is to instinctively "getting it" myself. Once I can analyze what's going on, I can usually connect it to my own experiences, but it's a logical rather than emotional process. Does that mean that I lack empathy or that I just have a different process? I excel at math and science and I can learn an entirely new programming language overnight, but I can't remember historical dates or names (or the names of characters in books that I'm reading). Does that mean that i lack memorization skills? I was hosting a conference call ever week and I'd open it exactly on time, every time. However, every week I'd get a message from one of the execs about 2-3 minutes before the call asking if I was going to start it. It wasn't until he bluntly asked me to open it five minutes early from now on that I understood what was going on. Does that make me stupid or imply that I lack intelligence?

I have a strong hunch that Aspies and some other ASD people have unique strengths and skills that could provide an advantage over NTs as the way that we communicate and interact changes. It's just a shame that most NTs are continually try to emulate "normal" using new technologies instead of recognizing and embracing the advantages of doing things differently. But that's a discussion for another thread.

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Cash__
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12 Aug 2011, 6:04 pm

My EQ score is very low (bottom 0.6 percentile) and my empathy is seriously lacking. Some of us do fit their hypothesis.



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13 Aug 2011, 2:51 pm

Cash are there any times you don't fit their hypothesis?

For example- for most of his life was Johnny Cash a happy man?

Not trying to use you to prove a point, I'm genuinely interested in what you think and feel about this.



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14 Aug 2011, 8:05 pm

memesplice wrote:
Cash are there any times you don't fit their hypothesis?

For example- for most of his life was Johnny Cash a happy man?

Not trying to use you to prove a point, I'm genuinely interested in what you think and feel about this.


I am actually not that familiar with most of their research. I am not sure where being happy and being empathy impaired go together. Is that one of their hypothesis? Because I would disagree with that. As a child I was generally happy but very impaired when it came to empathy. As an adult I am still generally happy most the time and my empathy has gotten better, but I would still say impaired. Not near like when I was a kid though.

As a possible side related note. I was seriously abused as a child and as a result I got very emotionally hard and blocked up. This may play into the whole empathy factor also. You do learn certain behaviors when you are getting the proverbial cr@p kicked out of you regularly. Thinking about that I may not be the best person to try to make a point of empathy on because I had other factors going on.



aghogday
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15 Aug 2011, 12:00 am

Cash__ wrote:
memesplice wrote:
Cash are there any times you don't fit their hypothesis?

For example- for most of his life was Johnny Cash a happy man?

Not trying to use you to prove a point, I'm genuinely interested in what you think and feel about this.


I am actually not that familiar with most of their research. I am not sure where being happy and being empathy impaired go together. Is that one of their hypothesis? Because I would disagree with that. As a child I was generally happy but very impaired when it came to empathy. As an adult I am still generally happy most the time and my empathy has gotten better, but I would still say impaired. Not near like when I was a kid though.

As a possible side related note. I was seriously abused as a child and as a result I got very emotionally hard and blocked up. This may play into the whole empathy factor also. You do learn certain behaviors when you are getting the proverbial cr@p kicked out of you regularly. Thinking about that I may not be the best person to try to make a point of empathy on because I had other factors going on.


It absolutely does. The same applies for kids that go to school and get bullied. If it happens enough one can lose emotion and feelings of empathy. There is plenty of research that backs that up.

I think empathy is related to happiness, as far as the good feelings that some receive from human connection, that those that don't experience the affective part of empathy take part in. Joy and sadness are shared in affective empathy, so it is a relative issue depending on whom one is around. For one that is consistently around sad or angry people, the ability to not become too empathetically involved is sometimes a necessity for good mental health.

People don't gain their happiness from the human empathetic response alone. And some that don't feel a great deal of empathy for humans experience it freely with animals and the rest of nature. Happiness, too is in the eye of the beholder, one person's heaven is another person's hell.

Since we know that empathy is affected by so many variables in life, I don't see how we can be sure that any autistic person inherently lacks the ability for empathy, or has lacked it their entire life. It could be that that the experience of empathy is so intense as a developing child, that, that is the reason a child sometimes escapes into themselves and withdraws from the world.

Recent research also suggest that too much empathy can be troublesome as indicated in Cohen's counter theory of an extreme female brain.

It's complicated stuff. Not the kind of thing that can be systematically understood on a consistent basis, I think, in even one individual. Too many variables affect empathy, other than the fact that someone has been diagnosed with Autism.

If one were to measure empathy, somewhat lower, on average in Aspergers, as Cohen's research suggests, it seems like it would and should probably be expected based on the difficulties in human social interaction common among those that are diagnosed.

A lack of empathy can cause problems with social interaction and problems with social interaction can cause a reduction in empathy. How in the world can anyone state for sure where the cycle started, or even come close, other than the specific individual that is currently being measured as having reduced empathy?



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21 Aug 2011, 3:37 am

aghogday wrote:
I think empathy is related to happiness, as far as the good feelings that some receive from human connection, that those that don't experience the affective part of empathy take part in. Joy and sadness are shared in affective empathy, so it is a relative issue depending on whom one is around. For one that is consistently around sad or angry people, the ability to not become too empathetically involved is sometimes a necessity for good mental health.

People don't gain their happiness from the human empathetic response alone. And some that don't feel a great deal of empathy for humans experience it freely with animals and the rest of nature. Happiness, too is in the eye of the beholder, one person's heaven is another person's hell.
...

Recent research also suggest that too much empathy can be troublesome as indicated in Cohen's counter theory of an extreme female brain.
...


aghogday - your posts are well-articulated and lucid. What you've written make a lot of sense to me, thankyou for that.

Interesting discussion all round, thanks memesplice.



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21 Aug 2011, 8:49 am

Thank you Nier.

Progress Report.

Well, I have been following this up. I have found a forum where there are people who work in there kind of professions. Most of them are OK .They have been discussing empathy and evil recently and have a broad range of understanding of the issues behind it. I have asked for SBC to be debated in this forum, and received a good deal of support.

(As a side note: someone has screwed their forum so the text doesn't work properly and they can't make links without messing- so if anyone can give them a fix, it would be a nice gift.)

They are different from us because of the way the invest social significance in politics and it seems to have much more to do with their sense of self than taking rational approaches.

It can get confusing and shouting - Ci versus the world x 1000.:) and they don't have any icons to reinforce intended meaning.

We get someone who holds different views and set those secondary to person. Things get nasty sometimes in their forum when they forget . I will use the term NT because it is helpful for me here - online they weirdly seem to have less of a group identity than we do , for this reason. By this I mean we know we are a group of individuals if that makes sense.

Most are very "kindly" . I lowered any aggression response shields and they did not attack , in fact the opposite is more correct to state.This may reflect the professions they work in and clustering of personality types. I am seriously impressed by some of their responses: For example @reynardmandrake- is a good storyteller . I am even thinking of asking her, and some other's to come here and maybe tell some stories with the LFA's who like writing stories and being read to, if they are really down .


In the empathy tests towards AS they scored higher than I had imagined. It is a different kind of empathy though . For example they tend to more group orientated than we are in certain circumstances , then it appears to be more about maintaining group identity than developing ideas. The other night a troll attacked and they went crazy at him , and you could observe the group working more as perhaps a team than here.-

I do not know how much closer we are to getting this debate
but they are discussing the issues.

Will update soon.



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17 Sep 2011, 11:41 am

edited :roll: :?



Last edited by mntn13 on 24 Sep 2011, 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Sep 2011, 11:52 pm

I didn't read the thread all the way through past the first page so I guess might have missed updates. Seriously doubt Baron-Cohen would engage since that means he'd have to retract a lot of what he's based his career on. Wonder if Tony Atwood or Oliver Sacks would be more likely targets based on their interactions with Temple Grandin.
I just got involved with this group called AASPIRE which does community based participatory research with autism community which means community gets to approve and comment on all research done. Seems like there are a lot of fledging researchers coming through (myself included) that are more likely to make an impact than Baron-Cohen actually engaging (though during his interview with Autism Women's Network could tell that he was thinking over things he was asked...



patiz
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28 Oct 2011, 6:06 pm

May I suggest we check the level of understanding of NT's, It's my belief that they are reality blind, as they use gossip to understand their world and not facts. Regards first contact, food seems to be a major player in their routines, perhaps a plate of 'chockywocky' will smooth the negotiations. We could pat them on the head and feed them at the same time, thus reassuring them that we mean them no harm.



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05 Nov 2011, 12:45 am

Image

I got that pic from a forum thread with ISTP MTBI types. Anyway, it seems pretty much all the ISTPs are scoring abysmally low. I scored 14, pretty much everyone else scored like that, too, with some people scoring like 7, 9, etc. We all scored below 20, pretty much.

http://personalitycafe.com/istp-forum-m ... uiz-1.html



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15 Nov 2011, 1:15 pm

Wasn't Cohen partly responsible for dispelling the myth that autistics lack empathy? Theory of Mind deficits are not even remotely comparable to the genuine lack of empathy found in sociopathy.

Why do autistics dislike this guy? I'm not defending him, I just think I missed something.


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15 Nov 2011, 2:43 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
Wasn't Cohen partly responsible for dispelling the myth that autistics lack empathy? Theory of Mind deficits are not even remotely comparable to the genuine lack of empathy found in sociopathy.

Why do autistics dislike this guy? I'm not defending him, I just think I missed something.


I don't think people dislike him, I just think this thread is to ask him to contribute to our debate. But I think there is a contentious issue about the empathy thing. But I could be wrong.



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15 Nov 2011, 7:56 pm

I want to first state that I didn't bother to go through all 4 pages, so my thought that what you initially wrote is both appropriate and HI-larious may come too little too late...

However, what I really wanted to state is that when I was first approached with the hypothesis that I has Asperger's, I naturally started reading all about AS. I bought Tony Attwood's (if I misspelled or incorrectly listed his name, I really don't care) book and make it most of the way through before becoming utterly disgusted with how he wrote about AS - he made us sound like some form of inferior lab rat meant to be dissected and disposed of. I stopped reading his book and switched primarily to books written by people with AS or NT's who wrote about their AS loved ones as those books made people with AS sound human.


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