Whats the difference between Schizotypal and Aspergers?

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phyrehawke
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24 Sep 2012, 7:38 pm

I am glad this got bumped up. I have been reading and thinking over this subject for a couple of months now, for a friend and for myself.
I am pretty sure, having looked at this really hard today that I am on the spectrum and not schizotypical...just due to my approach, and my approach to the study of spirituality over a broad range of cultures and a wide swath of time. I see spiritually as a hardwired system not for all but for many probably. Since I am one of those pattern kinds of people, you could say certain things get highlighted as "not spiritual" in certain people...flaws, if you will...and those might be schizotypal or schizophrenic, or antisocial personality disorder symptoms. For example, I had a young friend who seemed only to be spiritually curious for years, but as she's been approaching adulthood some extremely alarming things have been coming up. For example, a manipulative belief that she can make people forget things. That's not part of any time-honored spiritual system of belief that I know of. That was clearly outside the boundaries for me, so it got highlighted as mental illness (other signs too), and in no way a spiritual experience. I hope she gets some real help. I recall once she said to me I needed to be careful of burning bridges (with her) and I was shocked she thought I had excused our friendship over such a minor thing, and I reminded her that I don't build relationship bridges out of toothpicks, I build them to last...out of iron beams that can stand trials, and suggested she do that too. I think the look she flashed me might have been one of contempt, like she percieved that as a weakness (but I don't).

I've had to take a tough look at paranoia myself. As a psych friend says...just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. And my personal history has proven that to be so true. PTSD can make paranoia into a monster if I let it. Another friend pointed out that in the past when I've gotten hunches on things...aren't they often right? yes. Often very helpful for myself and others. I feel that is due to the way I use patterns, and I've been into lots of different kinds. It seems to me that an autistic with an interest in spirituality/religion who is seriously struggling with social patterning, might come across as schizotypical to a psych professional looking closely, but not closely enough to see they are struggling to weed out the negative relationships and keep the trustworthy ones. My personal paranoia results from people being in that "in between status" when people I normally trust are connected to things that aren't right, but I haven't yet worked out who's actually responsible for a variety of problems (and sometimes it's me!). As I work through the system people are restored to trusted status (or not), and I identify and eliminate system flaws that were my fault to begin with. But it can be a very long and tricky process, and it concerns the people around me.

I know the success statistics on social patterning are not great due to people being unpredictable, but I value the relationships enough to try anyway. My paranoia is specific to this situation. From what I understand of schizotypical personality, they would not bother trying, but they would write everybody with trust-in-doubt off as a whole, and the paranoia would be more general and not limited to people with specific connections, or to a particular situation. If that is the sort of disconnected world my friend is living in, I feel sorry for her. It's hard to imagine treating my situation that way.
The end result of my system is less stress due to problems eliminated, more self confidence, and the relationships that are left are proven more trustworthy so I might actually be more open than I was before. That's the goal, anyway and it took a little while to work a system out, but it seems to have worked fairly well. And I deeply appreciate all the help I have had with it around here. I have not done this alone, and I don't think I could've done this so well without my friends here at WP. :) I have learned a lot and I'm still learning, and I'm getting a little itch to start blogging on what I'm currently learning because I'm finding it immensely useful.


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VisInsita
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25 Sep 2012, 12:27 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Aspergers and autism don’t involve magical thinking.


I know many blatantly autistic people who could be easily defined as magical thinkers according to that list, and there still isn’t any need for the attribute schizo- in their case.

Magical thinking is a natural human characteristic. According to a poll (results are from Wikipedia) 41% of Finnish citizens believe in God. As many (41%) believe there is some sort of spirit or life force. Only 16% believes there isn’t any sort of spirit, God or life force. In similar fashion 35% of my colleagues in my unofficial “survey” done for this purpose believed in past lives. All are, believe it or not, sane people, without any disorder. 60% of the same, sane colleagues believed in some sort of precognition.

Psychiatry in itself is often as purely subjective or cultural bias serving interpretation as any other form of magical thinking – the only difference being that psychiatry is clothed in our society in the sense of objectivity and precision. Whether the area of magical thinking or the person involved is seen as sane is completely arbitrary and often more bound to our cultural norms than anything else. Let’s go back only 40 years or so and homosexuality is a mental illness. What happened? Did the “illness” change or was it rather a change in the dominant ideology that dictates our beliefs, values, explanations … and mental illnesses?

I personally believe magical thinking is a natural human characteristic (well, everything existing is natural anyways) - all the way from our animistic ways of using language (Why did my keys went lost just now? [do they have a will?]) to our elaborate belief systems. I can’t see, how believing in God (many respected and also autistic people do) differ from believing in superpowers or clairvoyance? How does believing blindly in “signs” differ from believing blindly to your own “logic”? Different names for the same aspects of “reality” and as long as anybody can’t really differentiate the two, I don’t bother myself with any list or categorization.



Last edited by VisInsita on 25 Sep 2012, 12:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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25 Sep 2012, 12:37 pm

The difference is my doctor told me "No, you don't have that one, you have Asperger's, I'm a world class authority on this."

I hate appeals to authority, but he was right about that one.

edit: I've been told that though the list of symptoms is similar, if you meet a schizotypal person and an AS person, you will immediately realize that they are totally different. A schizotypal person is more likely to be in an institution with an incorrect diagnosis of schizophrenia, as well. All the schizotypal people I've talked to have been institutionalized for at least short periods.



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25 Sep 2012, 12:58 pm

VisInsita wrote:
Psychiatry in itself is often as purely subjective or cultural bias serving interpretation as any other form of magical thinking – the only difference being that psychiatry is clothed in our society in the sense of objectivity and precision. Whether the area of magical thinking or the person involved is seen as sane is completely arbitrary and often more bound to our cultural norms than anything else. Let’s go back only 40 years or so and homosexuality is a mental illness. What happened? Did the “illness” change or was it rather a change in the dominant ideology that dictates our beliefs, values, explanations … and mental illnesses?


Yes. You are so flipping sensible. That is so right. I hope I my thoughts of the state of psychiatry today compared to 40 years ago is somewhat correct also. Cause I think that it hasn't changed so much, in it's understanding of the human being it has been improvements, and also in many other areas it has become merely more humane and socially conscious. But the way they work and how they think of the mentality of the human has only changed in accordance to dominant ideologies and in accordance to many conformist values in society, it's nothing revolutionary or nothing of convincing breakthroughs.

My answer to the magical thinking part is that also the evolution of the brain is an important factor, and every other gray aera of the brain and mind that people don't seem to consider. It's not pathological, I don't think so either. It's a shame psychiatrists don't seem to realize this. It may be because of how their task in society is in the first place, they need to limit their understanding so that they have a blueprint to work from.



nouse
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24 Dec 2012, 8:58 am

I would like to share my experience with schizotypo. I don't really have the disorder I was diagnosed with AvPD + Schizoid and OC features. I guess I'm pretty near of the diagnosable criteria. I've come to realization how different I am.

I mean I see sometimes things that aren't there but I know it is not really true. My intuition is somewhat wild. I'm always making connections (sometimes very far fetched). I have had pretty wild religious experiences and I'm familiar with ideas of references. I mean there are pretty crazy theories in my head but I don't share those with others because... My language is sometimes quite metaphorical and not so exact than descriptive. I'm scatterbrained and bit disorganized in my head. My EQ is clearly above average and SQ is lower average. I'm pretty good at reading people and I think I sometimes go too far interpreting it. I was quite a hugger boy before the school environment changed me and my mother wrote that I was extremely good at picking up peoples emotions but I really needed my own time alone.

I have excelled in sciences. I would describe it as a love affair rather than interest in pure logic and systems. It is a very emotional experience for me to make new connections and such. I can use my intuition to navigate with technology and such without really thinking about it. I don't read the manuals if there is no memorization required.

I have pretty bad social anxiety but on the other hand I usually view people as too predictable and shallow.



seaturtleisland
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24 Dec 2012, 12:51 pm

nouse wrote:
I mean I see sometimes things that aren't there but I know it is not really true.
How often does this happen and for how long? Frequency is a factor as to whether or not it is a disorder. Are they the norm that you get infrequent breaks from? Is not hallucinating the norm while the spaced out hallucinations happen periodically?

Many people have infrequent hallucinations that are too isolated and brief to cause problems. That's where I am. I've never had a hallucination lasting longer than an hour. An hour's the longest.

Other people have frequent and longer lasting hallucinations that cause problems. Is that where you are?



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24 Dec 2012, 1:39 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
What really confuses me is the fact that Asperger's syndrome and schizotypal personality disorder can not co-exist.


I suspect that the cause of the rule "ASD and schizophrenia SD can't coexist" is because the symptoms are so similar that, if you have symptoms of both, it is more logical to assume that you have only one disorder (being the apparent symptoms of the other only a side-effect) than that you have simultaneously two relatively rare conditions.

Without this rule, I imagine that shizotypals could be easily diagnosable with AS - they have the social problems, the strange non-verbal communication and their delusion/bizarre ideas could be easily considered "special interests".



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24 Dec 2012, 1:43 pm

nominalist wrote:
Nominally, they are different spectrums. However, schizotypal disorder is only diagnosed in adults.


The only personality disorder that is only diagnosed in adults is Antisocial Personality Disorder; the others could be diagnosed at children in the symptoms are present by more than one year.



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24 Dec 2012, 1:49 pm

I wonder if my ex boyfriend had magical thinking? My mom thought he may have been a schizophrenic because of the way he used hand gestures, the look on his face, how he talked, things he believed in, his paranoia he had, and she knew he had something else going on than ADHD, anxiety, and depression. But he did have friends and he had one close one too. I didn't notice his speech patterns or his hand gestures being odd or his facial expressions. The only thing I noticed were his thoughts and what he would get paranoid about.


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24 Dec 2012, 2:02 pm

autotelica wrote:
There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread.

Research is finding that individuals classified as being on the schizophrenia spectrum have an "atypical" neurology--and that signs arise early in development. The same neurolocial soft signs that autistic people exhibit are also found in schizoids/schizotypals. Bizarre movements/stereotypies/and tics are also associated with these disorders. Repetitive/ruminative thinking and OCD are features of schizotypes.

There may be schizoids who are schizoid because of emotional trauma/upbringing, but this isn't so for schizotypals. Schizotypals are almost certainly born, not made.


I think that there is a recurrent misconception running in this forum: that the difference between ASD and personality disorders is that the first are from birth and permanent while the second are acquired and perhaps treatable.

No, no, no - personality disorders are supposed to be permanent traits of thinking and behavior. The reason because PDs are rarely diagnosed at children is exactly because, in children, you don't know yet if their behavior will be permanent or it will change when they grow. The cause of PDs is not established: they could be from "nature" or from "nurture", does not matter - the point of a PD is that it is permanent, independently if the reason why you "catch" it.

The reason because, in DSM-IV, PDs are classified in Axis-II, together with mental retardation, is exactly because PDs and MR are supposed to be permanent and non-curable (if anything, it is ASDs who are misclassified in the Axis-I, when they should be classified in Axis-II - probably a reminiscence of the tendency to see autism as a "children's condition").



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24 Dec 2012, 2:16 pm

This is interesting.

A friend was dx'd with "schzoid personality disorder"( I believe thats what he said), but it might have been "schzotypal personality disorder". Havent talked to him in some years.

Is there such a thing as "schzoid personality disorder"?

He lives with psychiatric supervision. Does have paranoid tendencies -some of which verge on 'magical thinking' IMO( ie he leans toward conspiratorial explanations for things- some of which can be rather 'imaginative' to say the least).

For example - he had a relative who died changing a tire on the shoulder of a highway- killed by a hit and run. The relative happened to be an evangelical christian. He once said "you have to wonder about his death.." and then implied he was done in by a jewish conspiracy threatened by this relative's fervent christianity. When I asked him why exactly he thought that was the cause of the relative's death...he immediately caved and was embarrassed ( he either relealized that it was absurd- or realized that it SOUNDED absurd and that he didnt have the intelect to make an explanation that sounded good).



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24 Dec 2012, 2:18 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
nouse wrote:
I mean I see sometimes things that aren't there but I know it is not really true.
How often does this happen and for how long? Frequency is a factor as to whether or not it is a disorder. Are they the norm that you get infrequent breaks from? Is not hallucinating the norm while the spaced out hallucinations happen periodically?

Many people have infrequent hallucinations that are too isolated and brief to cause problems. That's where I am. I've never had a hallucination lasting longer than an hour. An hour's the longest.

Other people have frequent and longer lasting hallucinations that cause problems. Is that where you are?

I can perceive what is true quite fast and they don't really last that long. I have experienced minor hallucinations as long as I can remember. Never dared to share it with anyone. It is not that frequent or disturbing. I think I'm safe from very serious psychotic break if I take care of myself. As I said I'm not that super high schizotypal spectrum. I don't know whether professional can diagnose it as a PD.



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24 Dec 2012, 2:40 pm

nouse wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
nouse wrote:
I mean I see sometimes things that aren't there but I know it is not really true.
How often does this happen and for how long? Frequency is a factor as to whether or not it is a disorder. Are they the norm that you get infrequent breaks from? Is not hallucinating the norm while the spaced out hallucinations happen periodically?

Many people have infrequent hallucinations that are too isolated and brief to cause problems. That's where I am. I've never had a hallucination lasting longer than an hour. An hour's the longest.

Other people have frequent and longer lasting hallucinations that cause problems. Is that where you are?

I can perceive what is true quite fast and they don't really last that long. I have experienced minor hallucinations as long as I can remember. Never dared to share it with anyone. It is not that frequent or disturbing. I think I'm safe from very serious psychotic break if I take care of myself. As I said I'm not that super high schizotypal spectrum. I don't know whether professional can diagnose it as a PD.


Same with me. I don't have a psychotic disorder but have been getting those periodic brief hallucinations at a varying frequency consistantly since I was a toddler.

Have you ever had one that was realistic and plausible enough that you had to check it to determine whether it was a hallucination or not?

I heard a message on the intercom at the grocery store I was working at telling me that my assistance was needed at register 11. I found it a little odd because I never get asked to help out at the registers and my name is never used on the intercom. The message referred to me specifically. I decided to check it out just in case I really was needed even though I was already suspicious that it was a hallucination. As soon as I got to register 11 I asked if there was anything going on and the cashier said everything was fine. Then I asked another co-worker if my name was mentioned on the intercom at all and he said no. That was proof enough for me. I had to do a check that time but I figured it out.


Maybe we're getting off topic and should continue this discussion in a PM but the question I'm asking is this: Have you ever had a hallucination that was plausible enough that you had to do a reality check on it even though you were in a rational state of mind?



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24 Dec 2012, 5:32 pm

I was a bit confused with the two also. I'm paranoid and I have "odd beliefs". Does this make me schizo?



nouse
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25 Dec 2012, 5:07 am

Lecture about schizotypal persons
http://blip.tv/enneagon/sapolsky-on-religion-2215838

Shamanism, religious views, loose connections and so on. There was need for schizotypals in the past but modern world discriminate against this personality trait. Schizophrenia under control. It was desired in small amounts in the past.



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25 Dec 2012, 7:38 pm

nouse wrote:
Lecture about schizotypal persons
http://blip.tv/enneagon/sapolsky-on-religion-2215838

Shamanism, religious views, loose connections and so on. There was need for schizotypals in the past but modern world discriminate against this personality trait. Schizophrenia under control. It was desired in small amounts in the past.


I suspect that, in present times, schizotypals simply changed of field and, instead of being shamans or founders of religions, they now are in things like philosophical/political/psychological theories.