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btbnnyr
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24 Oct 2011, 4:32 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I don't believe that autistics have an inflated sense of entitlement. Can you explain why you think this? How is the sense of entitlement causing the problems of ASD?


There are people out there on the internet who say we do. I do not remember where they're at. My ultimate question is what if at least some of us do have it? If we do is it possible to get rid of it and how?


I can see how people would interpret autistic behaviors that way. For example, if I am not "going with the flow", because I feel really gawdawful like my mind is being torn into little pieces when someone announces that we have to go to two more stores that I had not mentally prepared to go to, then that person can interpret my resulting annoyance or anger as me being entitled to have everything my way. The truth is that if they felt the same way I did when the same thing happened to them, then they would have the same reaction. It just so happens that they don't. As an autistic person who knows that this internal mental difference can cause me to exhibit these reactions, I have actually tried to be accomodating to others, and I usually do agree to go to the two additional stores, but maybe I have to sit in the car for one of them.

I don't think that it's a good idea to believe the NT interpretations of autistic behaviors and actually think that we do things for the same reasons that they do things. If an NT got angry that she had to go to two more stores, then she probably does have a sense of entitlement and needs to have everything her way. In the same scenario, I simply feel horrible and want to die. As a child, I used to melt down, but as an adult, I control my negative reactions and actually try to accomodate others. Still, I will give off the appearance of not accomodating others fully, socially and emotionally, even though I am doing it physically, so my general behavior will still be interpreted as "grudging acceptance", and someone who does not know me well may still think that I have a sense of entitlement to having everything my way.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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24 Oct 2011, 4:35 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I don't believe that autistics have an inflated sense of entitlement. Can you explain why you think this? How is the sense of entitlement causing the problems of ASD?


There are people out there on the internet who say we do. I do not remember where they're at. My ultimate question is what if at least some of us do have it? If we do is it possible to get rid of it and how?


IMO people commonly throw that accusation around as a social weapon, such that the truth of it is dubious or flatly non-existent most of the time.

IME most people (ASD & NT) are not good with empathy across a gap. So, if you have, say, sensory issues that someone else doesn't, then that person may decide that you, "want everything your way -- just so," "you are spoiled," and "you have a sense of entitlement." It's like when people get jealous of disabled people using the blue handicapped parking spots. Somehow people forget the part about how they aren't disabled/effected such they actually need that spot in order to buy food to maintain their survival.



cubedemon6073
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24 Oct 2011, 4:41 pm

http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2004/12/se ... ement.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... ntitlement

If we are inadvertently displaying any of the criteria for a sense of entitlement I believe we need to squash it. One possibly way we can inadvertently be displaying it is by being demanding.

Another way is some of us could be trying to make society change for us in all ways, shapes or forms and we don't have to change anything about us whatsoever.



Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 24 Oct 2011, 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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24 Oct 2011, 4:45 pm

Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.

Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.



btbnnyr
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24 Oct 2011, 4:50 pm

Some explict examples of having a sense of entitlement must be given, along as some explicit examples of the problems of ASD, along with how the sense of entitlement contributes to the problems of ASD, for me to understand this topic.



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24 Oct 2011, 4:52 pm

The topic is kind of vauge......I think humans in general are entitled to certain things, and ideally everyone should be able to live whichever lifestyle they choose provided it does not cause unessisary harm to others. According to this disgusting society though If I were dead technically things would be better because I don't have a job and am making no income so in short I am not contributing to the machine and therefore the machine would be better off without me.

Cause you gotta work your ass off to barely make a living, don't you know......otherwise you're a lazy ass who is not even entitled to having the means to survive let alone enjoy themself regardless of if there is a valid reason they cannot work/produce....And thus the world is a sh*tty place.



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24 Oct 2011, 4:55 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I don't believe that autistics have an inflated sense of entitlement. Can you explain why you think this? How is the sense of entitlement causing the problems of ASD?


There are people out there on the internet who say we do. I do not remember where they're at. My ultimate question is what if at least some of us do have it? If we do is it possible to get rid of it and how?


IMO people commonly throw that accusation around as a social weapon, such that the truth of it is dubious or flatly non-existent most of the time.

IME most people (ASD & NT) are not good with empathy across a gap. So, if you have, say, sensory issues that someone else doesn't, then that person may decide that you, "want everything your way -- just so," "you are spoiled," and "you have a sense of entitlement." It's like when people get jealous of disabled people using the blue handicapped parking spots. Somehow people forget the part about how they aren't disabled/effected such they actually need that spot in order to buy food to maintain their survival.


Yup. That right there ^^

Good example!


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marshall
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24 Oct 2011, 5:00 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2004/12/sense-of-entitlement.html

What a hilarious case of projection. What is this right-wing notion of "American exceptionalism" if not a glorified sense of entitlement?



marshall
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24 Oct 2011, 5:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
The topic is kind of vauge......I think humans in general are entitled to certain things, and ideally everyone should be able to live whichever lifestyle they choose provided it does not cause unessisary harm to others. According to this disgusting society though If I were dead technically things would be better because I don't have a job and am making no income so in short I am not contributing to the machine and therefore the machine would be better off without me.

Cause you gotta work your ass off to barely make a living, don't you know......otherwise you're a lazy ass who is not even entitled to having the means to survive let alone enjoy themself regardless of if there is a valid reason they cannot work/produce....And thus the world is a sh*tty place.

I don't think the world is that horrible if you can get out and meet more real people. I'm sure if you weren't under so much depression it would be possible for you to find some kind of job / income source that you can live off of and not be miserable. It's just that we don't have a good system to direct people to jobs suited to their needs/abilities. Instead we have cold/impersonal corporate suits and government bureaucracies.



Wayne
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24 Oct 2011, 5:28 pm

I've seen it applied several times where it roughly translates to:

We expect to be treated like everyone else even though we won't act like everyone else.

Either we don't follow the protocol and still expect to be included, or we don't do the work (executive function, nonverbal communication deficits while trying to work in a group, etc.) and expect to be treated like someone who did do the work.

Sometimes they have a point, sometimes not.



mori_pastel
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24 Oct 2011, 6:04 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I don't believe that autistics have an inflated sense of entitlement. Can you explain why you think this? How is the sense of entitlement causing the problems of ASD?


There are people out there on the internet who say we do. I do not remember where they're at. My ultimate question is what if at least some of us do have it? If we do is it possible to get rid of it and how?


What you're talking about reminds me of something I read in The Complete Guide to Asperger's about how Aspie children adapt to the knowledge that they are different. There's one coping mechanism that he describes as denial and arrogance:

Quote:
An alternative to internalizing negative thoughts and feelings is to externalize the cause
and solution to feeling different. The child can develop a formof over-compensation for
feeling defective in social situations by denying that there is any problem, and by developing
a sense of arrogance such that the ‘fault’ or problem is in other people and that the
child is ‘above the rules’ that he or she finds so difficult to understand. The child or adult
goes into what I describe as ‘God mode’, an omnipotent person who never makes a
mistake, cannot be wrong and whose intelligence must be worshipped.

. . .

When such children are confused as to the intentions of others or what to do in a
social situation, or have made a conspicuous error, the resulting ‘negative’ emotion can
lead to the misperception that the other person’s actions were deliberately malicious.
The response is to inflict equal discomfort, sometimes by physical retaliation: ‘He hurt
my feelings so I will hurt him.’ Such children and some adults may ruminate for many
years over past slights and injustices and seek resolution and revenge (Tantam 2000a).
The compensatory mechanism of arrogance can also affect other aspects of social
interaction. The child may have difficulty admitting being wrong and be notorious for
arguing.


This could be what they're talking about, or it could be the entitlement arguments you see in all minority groups, from African-Americans to the handicapable to the LGBT community to us. There's really no denying that all of us in our little discriminated against minority groups have it harder than the general population (in some respects). Is it really irrational to see people fighting back against the discrimination and to demand that society accommodate all of it's citizens instead of just most of them?

I think you can summarize this whole thread up with just one word: "privileged," I have heard that term far too frequently lately. "The NT privilege," "the gender normative privilege," "the hetero-normative privilege," the list goes on and on. You're "privileged" to be able to get up and watch television, you're privileged if you have food in your cabinets, if you own a car, if you can get married, if you don't have to deal with sensory issues, blah, blah, blah. I don't have any problems with any minority groups. After all, I'm a member of a couple of minorities myself. What I have a problem with is this "privileged" viewpoint that's going around. I mean, there's some valid points there. Sometimes people need to be reminded of just how good they've got it.

The trouble (IMHO) is that I've never once seen someone wave that word around without being a complete douche about it. I've never seen someone use it without sounding completely entitled. Do we as members of a minority suffer, both because of our varying differences and because of how they put us at odds with society? Sure. It's not easy being autistic. Not all the time, anyway. I bet everybody here has just had one of those days where sensory issues or social interaction has got you so far down that you actually wished you'd never been born autistic. Because neurotypicals will never have to deal with some of the things we deal with. They'll never have to know how hard it can get, and man, but doesn't that just make you resentful sometimes?

So it's not irrational to demand compensation for all the extra difficulties we've been saddled with. After all, it's not like we're trying to get more than other people. We're the ones at a disadvantage, and we just want to try and right the scales.

The trouble is it's hard to make any sort of demands without coming off as arrogant. And thus, entitlement.

I honestly can't say where I stand on the issue. I really get frustrated watching people get heated over equal rights issues, mainly because I'm fairly pacifistic. To me, all aggression is negative. But at the same time, it's not like I completely disagree with the intent either.

Take the Adventure Time drama a couple of weeks back. (For those who don't know, I'm referring to an American childrens' show that hinted that two major female characters might be romantically interested in one another. The creators of the show even went so far as to green light the creation of some mildly suggestive artwork from some of their artists. I never paid much attention to the exact details, but the situation basically came to a head when a video went up on a fairly official website asking fans of the show to call a hotline and weigh in on whether or not they thought the two characters should get together within the show. The video was ripped down pretty fast and massive drama ensued from all corners of the internet.) During this drama, I saw some fairly interesting arguments on "heteronormative privilege." There was a particularly interesting argument about how the complete and total lack of any GLB characters in childrens' shows affects young GLB's.

Basically, this person argued that by considering GLB actions too controversial an issue for children you intrinsically imply that being GLB is dirty, vile, and a corrupting influence. After all, we don't have a problem with introducing sexuality to young children when it's heteronormative. How many pictures have you seen with two adorable little toddlers kissing?

Like this: Image

When we see this, our automatic reaction isn't that it's disgusting and an unnatural manipulation of children. But if you look at the situation objectively, it really is an unnatural manipulation of children. Children of that age don't naturally kiss each other on the lips. It's mimicry. These children have been intentionally posed by adults to mimic a sexual relationship. But we don't mind teaching our children from an early age about romantic love, kissing, and big white weddings. It's only wrong when it's not completely heteronormative. Therefor the belief that GLB issues are too risque to be directed at children or even spoken of when in their company is heterosexist. We don't have a problem teaching young children about romantic love, we have a problem teaching young children about gay romantic love.

The person making this argument continued to argue that this discrimination was detrimental in a very large way to the self-esteem of young GLB children. Adults, she argued, could find GLB role models. They're out there for adults to look up to and take comfort from. But younger children who are still subject to this censorship feel an extreme isolation due to the lack of "anybody like me" out there that is detrimental to their self-esteem in a very vital point in their development. More than that, the censorship teaches young children that the GLB issue is bad and wrong, much like the swear words that are also censored for their age group, which increases GLB bullying.

In the end, this person argued that to stand against the show allowing the female characters to engage in a romantic relationship for any reason was inherently heterosexist. There was no reason to stand against the show because even if you simply thought Finn was a better match for Bubblegum, to stand in the way of what could be momentous progress was wrong. How can you justify standing in the way of something that could help millions of GLB kids out there feel less unnatural, she argued, when you can turn on any television show and see people like you? It was selfish, in her opinion, to fight for your own personal entertainment when this could be such a force of good in the world.

I think that a lot of what she says makes sense. But GLB issues (and where you stand on them) aside, the trouble was it was a "you're either with me or against me" argument. And that matters more than whether she's right or wrong. The argument naturally comes off as inflammatory because of how demanding it is.

But then, this ties into the tone argument. Should people who are discriminated against phrase all their demands for equality politely if they want to be taken seriously? Nobody likes those protesters who rant and rave. The general consensus is that if you really want to change the world, you do it by polite lobbying. But the tone argument takes a different perspective. If you have been discriminated against, put down, and made to suffer because of your difference, are you not justified in expressing your anger? If someone comes over and punches you in the face, do you politely ask them to stop or do you retaliate? It's not irrational to express anger when you have been wronged. The world isn't just. Nobody knows that better than people who are subject to injustices. But is this enough to excuse the various inflammatory arguments individuals within a minority often make?

Ultimately, I think the whole issue comes down to this: Are we entitled to things just because other people have them? If you live in a capitalistic society, chances are you don't really believe that. You get what you earn from the world. No one has the right to take your money, no matter how you acquired it. But is it right that we're denied things just because we weren't given the same opportunities or born into the same circumstances as others? If the world has been unjust to you, it's natural to want to right the scales.

The trouble is every human being wants to live on both sides of this argument. When we have things others don't, we desperately want to hold on to them. We don't want to sacrifice our quality of life for the sake of equality. But when the tables are turned and we're the ones suffering, we want the world to suffer with us. To consider this topic at all without hypocrisy you have to either give up one side of the argument or the other, and that's something I don't think people are willing to do.

In short, this is either an issue of the famous Aspie arrogance that affects some of us or the inherent hypocrisy of "privilege and entitlement" that you see in all minority groups.

Anyway, this is just my long-winded opinion on the matter.



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24 Oct 2011, 7:19 pm

marshall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
The topic is kind of vauge......I think humans in general are entitled to certain things, and ideally everyone should be able to live whichever lifestyle they choose provided it does not cause unessisary harm to others. According to this disgusting society though If I were dead technically things would be better because I don't have a job and am making no income so in short I am not contributing to the machine and therefore the machine would be better off without me.

Cause you gotta work your ass off to barely make a living, don't you know......otherwise you're a lazy ass who is not even entitled to having the means to survive let alone enjoy themself regardless of if there is a valid reason they cannot work/produce....And thus the world is a sh*tty place.


I don't think the world is that horrible if you can get out and meet more real people. I'm sure if you weren't under so much depression it would be possible for you to find some kind of job / income source that you can live off of and not be miserable. It's just that we don't have a good system to direct people to jobs suited to their needs/abilities. Instead we have cold/impersonal corporate suits and government bureaucracies.


I know enough real people but i do go out to places where people are, does not make me feel any better sometimes it just makes things worse. And the depression is not going away anytime soon so it does not matter that much what I could do if I was not depressed............but yeah screw this sick society. I might have more motivation to try and work something out if there was something to look forward to but what is there besides possible ruined relationships, concerts/music and more drugs...I mean seriously.



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24 Oct 2011, 8:09 pm

I think I know what the OP is talking about.
I'm not up to putting together a long post right now, so I'll give the very short version of one of my points: part of it may be to do with the difficulties in perspective-taking.


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24 Oct 2011, 9:03 pm

I feel a sense of entitlement. I feel that I'm entitled to have certain things, due to the rougher upbringing that I've had than most people my age. I feel entitled to spend money on the things that make me happy and my special interests, due to the fact that I was always silenced about them as a child, because "Normal people don't talk about their interests all the time." I feel entitled to the money that I get from both sources - employment and disability pension. I feel entitled to my time alone on WP, as well.


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24 Oct 2011, 11:02 pm

Should one person be forced to produce for another no matter who does the forcing including government? This is why the tea party and conservatives believe what they believe. There are those who see this as a form of slavery. I've looked at both sides of this argument and it is a tough issue and those who make a case that it is a form of slavery seems compelling to me. On the other hand, is the average american person willing to help those who can't help themselves? By the attitudes that I have received I say the answer is no. If entitlements were to go away I believe the American people's attitudes must change and they need to help others out of the kindness of their own hearts. I don't see that happening anytime soon.



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24 Oct 2011, 11:27 pm

The majority of modern countries have some form of social security and socialized heath care, so I think the current attitudes may be particular to now and the USA.

I think maybe life has been too good for too long, and that people have forgotten why those safety nets were built in the first place. There is a story that a guy who was part of Ron Paul's campaign team who opted not to buy health insurance, got pneumonia, and died of it. I could be wrong, but I bet that guy never saw or knew anyone who died of pneumonia. He probably thought he was making an educated gamble, but mis-estimated because we all now take for granted the great success of modern medicine.

It just seems to me that it's like having a good fence around your pasture to protect your flock and then thinking, "why do I need the fence? The wolves never come in here."