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Gedrene
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13 Nov 2011, 11:04 am

ruveyn wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Markets and trade have existed for 50,000 years? Also noone has ever said that the lack of trade has anything to do with neanderthals dying off.


Along with markets and trade comes swapping tales, sharing hints on how to hunt the hair whatever, tales of weather patterns far off. Ideas are shared and grow in the sharing.

Of course but markets have not existed for fifty thousand years. Barter between mobile bands isn't a market. And I believe Neanderthals did trade in the same fashion when they moved (which they didn't much since they didn't migrate much). Various cro-magnon finds at neanderthal sites show Neanderthals did probably trade. The opposite is true.

ruveyn wrote:
Neanderthals, while capable of building tools (much simpler and cruder than their cro-magnon counterpart),

Also untrue. It is said that Neanderthals were involved in making hand axes, spears, had knowledge of ochre, built shelters and it is suggested, despite the unsuitability of their arms to the task, threw spears.

ruveyn wrote:
did not do so well in interchanging ideas. So when the climate changed they were left without help in coping. Goodbye Neanderthal.
There is actually no consensus in how the neanderthals died, all of them have their strengths, none of them involve this theory and all of them sound more sensible than this theory.



peebo
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13 Nov 2011, 11:25 am

ruveyn wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Markets and trade have existed for 50,000 years? Also noone has ever said that the lack of trade has anything to do with neanderthals dying off.


Along with markets and trade comes swapping tales, sharing hints on how to hunt the hair whatever, tales of weather patterns far off. Ideas are shared and grow in the sharing. Neanderthals, while capable of building tools (much simpler and cruder than their cro-magnon counterpart), did not do so well in interchanging ideas. So when the climate changed they were left without help in coping. Goodbye Neanderthal.

ruveyn


gedrene is correct, you are rather reaching a bit far with this. i let it go since i had assumed you were talking about bartering and swapping of material goods, which in itself was questionable given the context, but it's certainly incongruous to suggest that sharing of ideas and techniques among primitive communities would constitute a market. markets, in the context of the discussion (i.e. capitalism), can't be traced back further than a few hundred years, and even trading for profit can't be traced back further than a few thousand.


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ruveyn
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13 Nov 2011, 12:40 pm

peebo wrote:

gedrene is correct, you are rather reaching a bit far with this. i let it go since i had assumed you were talking about bartering and swapping of material goods, which in itself was questionable given the context, but it's certainly incongruous to suggest that sharing of ideas and techniques among primitive communities would constitute a market. markets, in the context of the discussion (i.e. capitalism), can't be traced back further than a few hundred years, and even trading for profit can't be traced back further than a few thousand.


It surely is trade. I will tell you my story if you will tell me yours.

The interesting thing is that the swapping of stories leaves -everyone- richer for the trade. No losers.

ruveyn



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13 Nov 2011, 2:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
peebo wrote:

gedrene is correct, you are rather reaching a bit far with this. i let it go since i had assumed you were talking about bartering and swapping of material goods, which in itself was questionable given the context, but it's certainly incongruous to suggest that sharing of ideas and techniques among primitive communities would constitute a market. markets, in the context of the discussion (i.e. capitalism), can't be traced back further than a few hundred years, and even trading for profit can't be traced back further than a few thousand.


It surely is trade. I will tell you my story if you will tell me yours.

The interesting thing is that the swapping of stories leaves -everyone- richer for the trade. No losers.

ruveyn



ok, perhaps you could consider it a primitive market of sorts. but still i don't really think specifically relevant to the topic. it certainly doesn't constitute any form of capitalism.

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and tell you a story of natural law, and how we might conquer desire...


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Gedrene
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14 Nov 2011, 9:48 am

ruveyn wrote:
It surely is trade.

Untrue. There are quite a few theories supported by evidence, none of them have anything to do with anything to do with your market fetish. The first was the change in climate at the end of the last ice age. The second was the death of the megafauna that Neanderthals hunted on. The third was the higher calorie requirement of Neanderthals over Humans. There is also the consideration of interbreeding (all non-african populations have 1-4% neanderthal DNA). There are also considerations of a super-eruption in Campania.

As for swapping stories a lot of stories can be useless, and even more importantly information isn't necessarily free ruveyn. Anyone should know that about modern economics.