Is life in prison/the death penalty too harsh for rape?

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donnie_darko
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26 Nov 2011, 4:57 pm

I think life in prison is suitable for serial rapists and very violent rapists, I'm against the death penalty period, but do you think it's too harsh for say, date rape? Like if the rape was not physically violent but they just kept going? It seems a little bit harsh to put someone in jail FOREVER for that, especially if they were on drugs or something and not in their right mind. I don't think being raped is as bad as being killed or being put in jail forever. I think life in prison for rape is disproportionate to the crime. Rape is obviously a really sad thing to go through, but humans are designed to withstand trauma. It's not like people who are raped simply wallow in misery until the day they die. I don't think it's nearly as bad as being murdered.

I dunno, it does seem incredibly vengeful to put someone in jail forever or kill them because they committed date rape. I think 5-10 years in prison would suffice as punishment. I mean even a month in jail would be horrible.



Last edited by donnie_darko on 26 Nov 2011, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vexcalibur
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26 Nov 2011, 4:59 pm

Perhaps you'd prefer castration.


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donnie_darko
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26 Nov 2011, 5:04 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Perhaps you'd prefer castration.


It all depends on the psychology of the rapist.



donnie_darko
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26 Nov 2011, 5:13 pm

Yeah always puzzled me when I learned rape is considered equal to killing someone in badness. To me its like not even close. I wouldn't even consider rape as bad as those creeps who pour acid on women's faces to get revenge on them for rejecting them. How could ANYTHING be as bad as killing somebody? But then again, in America even consensual sex is considered worse to show on television than an autopsy or a war scene with hundreds of people blown to bits. I mean hell, even someone's crack is considered more obscene than that!



visagrunt
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29 Nov 2011, 2:44 pm

I think we are uncritical about the word, "rape."

At common law, the word has, over time, come to encompass a very restrictive definition--at its nadir, proof of rape required proof of penetration. The reality is that sexual assault ecompasses a much broader range of behaviours--all of which are worthy of sanction, but not all of which merit the same sanction.

Consider:

--Sexual intercourse where consent is obtained by innocent misrepresentation. A person does not know himself to be infected with a sexually transmittable condition, and has consensual intercourse with another person.
--Sexual intercourse where consent is obtained by fraud. A person knows himself to be infected with a sexually transmittable condition and withholds this knowledge from his partner.
--Sexual intercourse where consent is obtained legitimately and later withdrawn. A person fails to discontinue intercourse when told to do so.
--Sexual intercourse conducted under duress, for example through the threat of violence.
--Sexual intercourse where violence is used to overcome the objection of the other person.
--Sexual intercourse with a person legally incapable of consenting
--Sexual intercourse with a person who is legally incapable of consenting, but who claims to be capable (e.g. a fifteen year old who pretends to be 17 so that he can sign up on Grindr).
--Sexual conduct in any of these circumstances that does not include intercourse (such as oral-genital or mutual masturbation)
--Unwanted sexual touching

and so on.

All of these are properly criminal acts, but not all of them are "rape" and even those that are vary in their gravity. There is no question in my mind that there are sexual assaults that merit long term or even life sentences. But that is by no means every case.


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MarsCoban
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29 Nov 2011, 3:00 pm

I propose that all people responsible for imprisoning others should be required to serve one month in a local jail. It would give them a new persepctive on "5 years for..., 20 to life for...."...I'm sorry, but the prison system is effing ridiculous, and they dish out absurdly harsh sentences for most crimes, and don't they realize that when you're imprisoning someone, you aren't only affecting their lives, but the lives of their family as well? Other than murder (and perhaps serial rape), I personally can't think of a crime that would deserve more than five years in prison. I don't know if judges realize how long five years is when you're locked up like an animal. I don't know how other countries are, but America has been wonderful at persuading the majority of people to believe that a person who commits a crime is henceforth evil (i.e. an animal, subhuman, etc.) I assume they do this to enforce obedience, no matter how asinine the laws, or how ripe they make the soil for these 'crimes' to sprout up in. Every society gets the criminals it deserves.


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WilliamWDelaney
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29 Nov 2011, 3:05 pm

I think that people are too squeamish in general about sexual crimes. It's harder to discuss intelligently how to address such problems if squeamishness is involved.

I see rape as a form of bullying more than as something akin to murder. That said, I think that bullying in general ought to be treated with greater seriousness, especially forms of which that are as damaging as rape. Victims of rape often spend the rest of their lives feeling soiled and somehow compromised in their integrity, and I see that as unjust. In some cultures, female victims of rape don't even feel they can show their faces around their families anymore, which is awful. It is an injustice very much akin to treating someone in any such manner as to cause him/her to see him/herself as somehow inferior or less worthwhile than others, especially if these feelings are being instilled by someone who is the lowest form of degenerate. It is evil, and rape is simply the worst example of this kind of harm.



dmm1010
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29 Nov 2011, 3:52 pm

MarsCoban wrote:
I propose that all people responsible for imprisoning others should be required to serve one month in a local jail. It would give them a new persepctive on "5 years for..., 20 to life for...."...I'm sorry, but the prison system is effing ridiculous, and they dish out absurdly harsh sentences for most crimes, and don't they realize that when you're imprisoning someone, you aren't only affecting their lives, but the lives of their family as well? Other than murder (and perhaps serial rape), I personally can't think of a crime that would deserve more than five years in prison. I don't know if judges realize how long five years is when you're locked up like an animal. I don't know how other countries are, but America has been wonderful at persuading the majority of people to believe that a person who commits a crime is henceforth evil (i.e. an animal, subhuman, etc.) I assume they do this to enforce obedience, no matter how asinine the laws, or how ripe they make the soil for these 'crimes' to sprout up in. Every society gets the criminals it deserves.

Then allow me to make a counter-proposal that those who advocate lighter sentences for convicted criminals should be required to experience being the victim of a crime; furthermore, because the consensus opinion appears to be that rape is not serious enough to warrant death or long prison sentences, let me suggest that said crime be, yup, you guessed it, rape. :D



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29 Nov 2011, 4:00 pm

dmm1010 wrote:
MarsCoban wrote:
I propose that all people responsible for imprisoning others should be required to serve one month in a local jail. It would give them a new persepctive on "5 years for..., 20 to life for...."...I'm sorry, but the prison system is effing ridiculous, and they dish out absurdly harsh sentences for most crimes, and don't they realize that when you're imprisoning someone, you aren't only affecting their lives, but the lives of their family as well? Other than murder (and perhaps serial rape), I personally can't think of a crime that would deserve more than five years in prison. I don't know if judges realize how long five years is when you're locked up like an animal. I don't know how other countries are, but America has been wonderful at persuading the majority of people to believe that a person who commits a crime is henceforth evil (i.e. an animal, subhuman, etc.) I assume they do this to enforce obedience, no matter how asinine the laws, or how ripe they make the soil for these 'crimes' to sprout up in. Every society gets the criminals it deserves.

Then allow me to make a counter-proposal that those who advocate lighter sentences for convicted criminals should be required to experience being the victim of a crime; furthermore, because the consensus opinion appears to be that rape is not serious enough to warrant death or long prison sentences, let me suggest that said crime be, yup, you guessed it, rape. :D


You're right, if I were raped, I'd probably want vengeance. But that doesn't mean that vengeance is the best possible course of action. Also, I wasn't talking about rape specifically. It's my own fault that I wasn't more specific, but I was more referring to non-violent and 'victimless' crimes. And, no, I don't condone rape or sexual abuse. In fact, I can see the effects of it quite clearly, as my own mother was molested by various family members on multiple occasions, and has never quite recovered from it, and the effects it had on her also negatively effected her parenting.

What I'm saying is that we should focus more on rape, rather than rapists. Why do people rape? What kinds of societies, households, are likeliest to produce rapists, murderers, etc.? What would be the best measures possible to prevent individuals from becoming rapists? Obviously not hefty prison sentences.

When a machine produces a flawed product, does one blame the product, or the machine?


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dmm1010
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29 Nov 2011, 4:40 pm

MarsCoban wrote:
You're right, if I were raped, I'd probably want vengeance. But that doesn't mean that vengeance is the best possible course of action.

Although punishment, i.e., vengeance, is certainly a factor that motivates society to execute and imprison criminals, it is by no means the only factor. In my opinion a much more important factor is the need for society to protect itself from future crimes that criminals are likely to commit.

Quote:
Also, I wasn't talking about rape specifically. It's my own fault that I wasn't more specific, but I was more referring to non-violent and 'victimless' crimes.


I'm unsure what you mean by non-violent and victimless crimes. If you mean drug dealing, use, etc. then, in my opinion, these shouldn't be considered crimes at all. Burglary could be regarded as a non-violent crime, but I'm not in favor of lighter sentences for burglars.

Quote:
And, no, I don't condone rape or sexual abuse. In fact, I can see the effects of it quite clearly, as my own mother was molested by various family members on multiple occasions, and has never quite recovered from it, and the effects it had on her also negatively effected her parenting.


I wasn't implying that you condoned sexual abuse or assault.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that we should focus more on rape, rather than rapists. Why do people rape? What kinds of societies, households, are likeliest to produce rapists, murderers, etc.? What would be the best measures possible to prevent individuals from becoming rapists? Obviously not hefty prison sentences.

When a machine produces a flawed product, does one blame the product, or the machine?

This is entirely rational and I wholeheartedly agree that we as a society should do whatever we can to avoid producing criminals in the first place. You should however consider that at least a subset of criminals may exist due to factors that are beyond our control.



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29 Nov 2011, 4:42 pm

It's not as bad as murder, I agree, but if you let out a rapist, they'll probably start raping people again. It's not exactly a desire you can just shake off, is it?



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29 Nov 2011, 5:31 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
I think 5-10 years in prison would suffice as punishment. .


In the US (which is where I am) the average sentence for rape is 11 years and the average time actually served is 5 years. I got that statistic off Wiki so it doesn't have the finesse of breaking it down into all the different categories as described by visagrunt. But it does more or less fit your prescribed 5-10 years. That seems reasonable to me too.

I think rape is a lesser crime than murder and should be (and is) sentenced as such. There is also a practical problem in making a rape sentence indistinguishable from a murder sentence. It gives the rapist a strong incentive to become a murderer to hide the evidence of the rape crime (hide it underwater, for instance). If they are punished the same, any rapist will realize that it is in his best interests to kill his victim and destroy the body, since the risk for doing that would be no greater than the risk for the rape itself.

However, I don't think there is a society that punishes the two crimes equivalently. Only google knows for sure.



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29 Nov 2011, 5:41 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
It's not as bad as murder, I agree, but if you let out a rapist, they'll probably start raping people again. It's not exactly a desire you can just shake off, is it?
Nope. In fact, sex offenders have an extremely high rate of recidivism. The only thing that really helps with sex offenders is intensive CBT, and that only works with non-antisocial offenders. With antisocial offenders, treatment programs only give offenders more weapons in their arsenal of lies and manipulation, empowering that person to hurt more victims in worse ways. Frankly, I see no reason I should give a crap about someone who is cruel just because being cruel makes that person feel good.

I suppose that I would support early release for non-antisocial offenders if someone were to pay for their treatment, but I would expect that to come with large donations toward rape prevention charities.



WilliamWDelaney
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29 Nov 2011, 5:44 pm

Actually, I just read a paper that suggests that recidivism is fairly low with sex offenders, but I've heard differently elsewhere, if I recall correctly.

http://www.trowbridgefoundation.org/doc ... t_work.pdf



Asp-Z
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29 Nov 2011, 5:47 pm

Well it's more like, if hurting someone makes you feel good, go do it in a consensual way.

I'm guessing there will be plenty of arguments on both sides, but I think what you said does stand to reason.



WilliamWDelaney
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29 Nov 2011, 5:50 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Well it's more like, if hurting someone makes you feel good, go do it in a consensual way.
Sadomasochism isn't motivated by necessarily antisocial tendencies, though.