Am I doing more harm then good?

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nervousparent
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06 Dec 2011, 5:30 pm

Hello,

I have a 5yo who is very very shy. He doesn't interact with children he doesn't know under any circumstances. It took him quite some time to interact with his cousins though now they get along great and nothing seems "off". He is not aggressive ever. He simply seems to "shut down" when a child (or new adult) speaks to him. If he runs in a line with children he will be sure to maintain distance so that he doesn't get bumped into. However, if he's sitting in a group and children are touching him (they're sitting very close) he doesn't seem to be alarmed.

We were sending him to a 2 hours a day/2 days a week preschool through our city's rec dept but they ran out of money and the program was closed. Today he started what I would call his first real day of preschool, 4 hours/day. As in every other case the teacher told me he refused to talk to any child or do any activity. He says he had a good day.

A little on his history and abilities:
T-Ball: After being very excited to do T-Ball he spent the first practice or two refusing to do anything. Eventually he warmed up enough to do the drills and hit the ball and run the bases during games. However, the entire season I don't believe he spoke to any child on the team, with only the occasional couple words to the coaches.

Academic/learning:
I am not an educator or qualified to administer an IQ test but he seems incredibly gifted. He is 5 and reads easily at a third grade level. He has *literally* read every book in the children's section of the library. He gets on a subject of interest and really sticks with it until he learns all he wants to know. Currently his "kick" is geography and he could tell you (if you could get him to talk to you) which continent a given country is on and so on. He also has what seems like a bucket list of where we have to go, I couldn't possibly tell you how the places were chosen. (Note here: My wife and I are very bright, I was reading at 12th grade+ by 6th grade, 99th percentile on math/reading achievement tests etc. However, I remember wanting to read before school so bad it hurt, I couldn't wait, but still in no way was I reading even the simplest street signs or sentences _before preschool_. This amazes me to no end)

He loves to watch sports on tv and he's very familiar with every team and their upcoming schedule. He knows what time a game will be on and what channel (for multiple sports). He might read books all day one day and the next day watch old college basketball games on ESPN Classic as long as I'd let him.

Behavior: With people he's newly met or doesn't know very well as mentioned above he's near silent at all times. Among family or friends he's seen many (many, (sometimes it takes MANY) times HE IS AN ABSOLUTE DELIGHT. In 5 years he has had very few behavioral issues. When he was younger he would tend to start to cry when he didn't get his way but that's mostly gone now. In every other possible way he follows directions, is kind, talkative, engaged, a wonderful brother to our 1yo, great with animals, I could go on.

I know this is quite the book and I thank whoever made it this far for their effort. I just wanted to give some reference for my next comments:

My wife and I go back and forth like ping-pong or something with worry, after today's comments from the teacher I am starting to think he should be tested. She has switched back to the "he'll be fine it was his first day" position. During T-Ball my position was who cares if he thought he wanted to do it and it turned out he didn't like it, nothing wrong with not wanting to play some sport, and yet she was crying regularly about it. As you can see we are on opposite ends today.

So the crux of it, I came on to look (again) at some symptoms for Autism or Asperger. Admittedly most of the symptoms he doesn't have, like reading facial expressions which he seems to be fine at judging people's mood etc, or empathy or any of the "meltdowns" and on and on, he simply doesn't seem to have these things.

BUT: On these forums I read this which finally made me start crying and consider at least a professional consultation:
"Children with AS, on the other hand, don't do things they are told for two reasons.
1. The reasons most children don't do things they are told.
2. Because they can't. For one reason or another, it's too much for them. "

#2 scares me to death. As any of you who are parents surely understand, my sons are my world. To constantly try to force my child to do something he is _physically unable to do_ is the worst thing I can imagine.

Parents (at least those brave souls that made it this far), what do you think of my situation? Of my child's behavior? Of my reaction?

Before writing this I imagined some parents reading this and saying to themselves: "Shy?!?!? NT problems!" Much in the same way I see people say "First world problems, must be nice!" when our electricity goes out for a few hours once in several years.

Thanks for reading.



Last edited by nervousparent on 06 Dec 2011, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Beqi
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06 Dec 2011, 5:44 pm

I just wanted to tell you that my AS son was in a cub scout troop for two years and he can't tell you one of the other boys names. He loves being part of the whole, but isn't interested in personal relationships. My boy is now 11 now. He is beginning to branch out a bit. But usually only within his own interests. It is a labor of love and holding your breath watching them navigate the social world. He told me recently that he likes talking with adults more than kids and how "someday all the kids will be adults so it's all okay in the end."

We did some social classes with him and groups of other kids like him through his child development center. That may be something to look into. Good luck. :)



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06 Dec 2011, 5:52 pm

I think you are right to be concerned. Your son has some qualities like my daughter. From the time she was very young she avoided other children. She also became incapacitated if I tried to encourage her in social activities such as the T Ball you mentioned.

That said, I think it's a little early to become concerned about him not being able to do things. Even IF he does have autism or asperger's he would still be able to do a lot of things, he just might not be into group activities.

My daughter had a lot more things than just what you mention. If, after SIX MONTHS the prek teacher says he's STILL not mixing or responding, then you get concerned.

I would recommend to you the book "The Out of Sync Child". With a pre-diagnosis child showing sensory issues it will help you a lot. It has a lot of things you can do to help with the sensory issues.

It's too soon to get scared and panic. Just keep an eye out and DON'T push him into things he's uncomfortable with. Good Luck.



nervousparent
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06 Dec 2011, 5:59 pm

Great responses, thank you very much.

I should note that I asked him to tell me honestly if you want to go back or not and he said enthusiastically yes. This seems similar to the Boy Scout experience, I believe he loves the idea of school and learning but has no interest in the relationship between him and other students.



Mama_to_Grace
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06 Dec 2011, 7:04 pm

That's a very good sign that he wants to go back. Keep talking with him and see if you can figure out why he doesn't play with the other children. Not all kids are going to be social but if he is dealing with sensory difficulties or some fears you will want to address those sooner rather than later.



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06 Dec 2011, 7:17 pm

Beqi wrote:
He told me recently that he likes talking with adults more than kids and how "someday all the kids will be adults so it's all okay in the end."


My 11 year old has enjoyed the company of adults more than children for as long as I've known him (age 6). Your son's logic is so sweet, I think I will use it with him the next time it comes up.

And good luck to you nervousparent. I'm not really qualified to give advice on your issue as I'm struggling with all this myself but you'll find this community very supportive.



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06 Dec 2011, 8:33 pm

I don't know that it's time to panic, but you might want to get him tested now. It's not necessarily that I think he might be on the spectrum. Actually, it sounds to me more like a gifted kid. You might want to check out
SENG. This can give you a lot of information on the sensory characteristics of a gifted kid. They are often misdiagnosed with ASD.

I say do it now because if he has problems when he hits kindergarten it could take a year or more to get him sorted out, all the while the damage accumulates. If you already know he's gifted or has whatever issues you're in place to get him what he needs much sooner.


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aspie48
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06 Dec 2011, 8:39 pm

maybe he has selective mutism. basically thats when people are silent around certain people or situations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_mutism



DW_a_mom
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07 Dec 2011, 1:15 am

He sounds like such a great kid! If you are coming across indications there might be something going on, do have him tested, but not because there is anything to worry about, but because if he is AS, there are times you'll want to parent him differently, and there will be things the teachers will want to handle differently. Either way, he'll be the same great kid with a bright future. The only difference will be that Mommy and Daddy will be working from the right tool box, and that always makes things go more smoothly, right?


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aann
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07 Dec 2011, 8:20 am

My little guy was selectively mute in his 3yo preschool class and at gatherings with my large family. We worked hard and now he is slow to warm but not hard core selectively mute. In other words, now he'll act shy in many situations but he won't absolutely refuse to talk if he needs help or something. He does have Aspergers, he's highly intelligent, but has very slow processing.

Most helpful to us were comments of a mom with a 4th grader who was seriously selectively mute. They never got anywhere with their child but told me regrets she had when her child was 3. They had labelled the child shy and allowed things like withholding the sticker reward if the child did not repeat her memory verse in the preschool class.

I noticed that I had labelled my son shy to try to discourage people from doing all sorts of things to make him react to them. So we decided that each day, either my husband or I would, without fanfare, tell him we were so proud that he was not a shy boy anymore. The teacher also did this. The first day she did it, he came home and said, "Hey guess what? I am not a shy boy anymore!" The teacher really only got him to start speaking in a whisper and then the year came to a close. For the 4yo preschool class, I explained it to the new teacher and she let us come in the week before class to get familiar with her and the classroom. It worked. He showed no signs of selective mutism all year. With my family we did nothing special. He won't speak in the large crowd but he will speak one on one.

As for the Aspergers question, many kids are not diagnosed with Aspergers until their symptoms are more pronounced - at age 8, 9, or 10, even though many signs are present at early ages. We always knew something was different but didn't get him diagnosed until age 9. We did parent him differently. I did not know anything about aspergers so I called my son highly sensitive. Typical parenting did not work so we had to see behavior as communication, provide a highly structured envirnment, watch him carefully around other kids for possible bullying, and homeschool him.

He only started having real meltdowns at age 8 since we did parent him differently. Like yours, my son is able to pick up on others' moods, feelings, and inuendo but he doesn't get other things. Like sometimes kids will kick a ball into the street and tell my son to go get it. He knows they should be the ones to get it but he wants friendships badly, and doesn't know how to say no, so he chases the ball like a dog. Just saying the empathy issue is complex. AS kids have empathy but process it differently, or sometimes selectively. If you have a very bright child, like you do, many professionals don't want to diagnose. We sought help only when my son was showing signs of depression and self hatred. I hope this helps.



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07 Dec 2011, 11:58 am

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861522/

Above is a link to a good article on selective mutism.

My own son with classic autism has a history of comorbid selective mutism and was successfully treated with fluoxetine (Prozac). Within a couple of weeks, he was speaking quite a lot.

After starting the med, began rambling off words and sentences from flashcards, books, etc., even at daycare. He had been worked with extensively on speech, so he had a lot of words floating around in his brain. His speech was often echolalic or otherwise incorrect, but I had a lot more to work with and immediately got a better idea of his true speech abilities and deficiencies.

You might also be interested in the following two books available from Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Selective-Mutism- ... 634&sr=1-3

(Great reviews, but I haven't read it.)

and

http://www.amazon.com/Helping-Your-Chil ... 634&sr=1-1

(An inexpensive good book that I have read which mainly focusses on psychological approaches.)

I had selective mutism as a child and grew out of it by about age 10. I wouldn't wait around hoping for the child to grow out of it, though.

My free Speech and Vocabulary Channel on YouTube has some clips of kids with selective mutism in the "favorites" section, if you want to check those out, too.

Good luck!


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07 Dec 2011, 12:04 pm

Welcome to WP! The emotional turmoil you are feeling is normal and will likely lessen as you learn more. It is hard to watch our kids obviously stand out so much in their behaviors. I agree with DW that going forward with an evaluation would help you figure out what works best for your son. My son is not shy like yours but even after a full year of being in preschool 6 hours/day 5 days a week he couldn't have told you the names of most of the kids in his class. Honestly there were times I questioned if he even noticed the other kids at all. On the other hand, he knew the names of all the adults who worked at the school and those that visited on a regular basis and would carry on extended conversations with any adult. When asked what he did at school he would often reply "I played with my Friend". We came to understand that his "Friend" was the teacher's aide, Sarah, who he loves more than almost anyone besides me and his dad.

Its a good sign that your son says he wants to go to school. That is your best yard stick as far as knowing if you are pushing him too hard. As smart as he is, it sounds like he is plenty capable of letting you know if something is too much for him. I would suggest that you ask the teachers not too push him too hard to interact with the other kids. He will or he won't but if he does, he needs to be allowed to do it at his own pace. Different kids develop social skills at such vastly different rates and truthfully, for a kid as academically advanced as yours, it is easy to understand why he would have little interest in conversing with a typical 5 yo about blocks or Spongebob or other stuff like that. I loved the comment above from the child who stated that all kids would be adults eventually! :lol:



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07 Dec 2011, 9:19 pm

nervousparent wrote:
To constantly try to force my child to do something he is _physically unable to do_ is the worst thing I can imagine.


As someone who more than probably has AS myself, and who grew up in a world that neither understood nor cared that I struggled, I applaud your thinking in these terms - but keep in mind that many, many of us made it through notwithstanding lack of support from parents...or anywhere. In other words, don't beat yourself up.

I think it was a bigger gift for my son to see us figure it out and totally change the way we parented him (for the better) than it would have been for us to start out parenting him well from the beginning, if that makes sense. I remind him of that sometimes, when he thinks that nobody ever learns or changes - I point out that we did.

I think knowing the right strategies for your particular kid can be really useful, and if you're concerned, asking for professional help is the right thing to do - but keep in mind that many of us were asking for help for years and years and years, and would be told that our kids were "fine" or "anxious" or "over that particular phase" or more clinical terms "mood disorder," "ADHD" but that didn't come with the strategies. Strategies are the thing you should be looking for; ways to parent your child. I'm assuming from that phrase that you read Tracker's book, it sounds like it would be a particularly good fit for you - if not, here it is: http://www.asdstuff.com/works.html (click the left column)

The main reason many of our kids don't get diagnosed until they're between 8 and 12 years old is that there is a developmental leap in communication in that age range, and our kids often don't make it. It can be tricky to figure it out beforehand, as all kids under the age of 8 are to some extent bad communicators.



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08 Dec 2011, 3:59 am

nervousparent wrote:
Hello,

I have a 5yo who is very very shy. He doesn't interact with children he doesn't know under any circumstances. It took him quite some time to interact with his cousins though now they get along great and nothing seems "off". He is not aggressive ever. He simply seems to "shut down" when a child (or new adult) speaks to him. If he runs in a line with children he will be sure to maintain distance so that he doesn't get bumped into. However, if he's sitting in a group and children are touching him (they're sitting very close) he doesn't seem to be alarmed.

We were sending him to a 2 hours a day/2 days a week preschool through our city's rec dept but they ran out of money and the program was closed. Today he started what I would call his first real day of preschool, 4 hours/day. As in every other case the teacher told me he refused to talk to any child or do any activity. He says he had a good day.

A little on his history and abilities:
T-Ball: After being very excited to do T-Ball he spent the first practice or two refusing to do anything. Eventually he warmed up enough to do the drills and hit the ball and run the bases during games. However, the entire season I don't believe he spoke to any child on the team, with only the occasional couple words to the coaches.

Academic/learning:
I am not an educator or qualified to administer an IQ test but he seems incredibly gifted. He is 5 and reads easily at a third grade level. He has *literally* read every book in the children's section of the library. He gets on a subject of interest and really sticks with it until he learns all he wants to know. Currently his "kick" is geography and he could tell you (if you could get him to talk to you) which continent a given country is on and so on. He also has what seems like a bucket list of where we have to go, I couldn't possibly tell you how the places were chosen. (Note here: My wife and I are very bright, I was reading at 12th grade+ by 6th grade, 99th percentile on math/reading achievement tests etc. However, I remember wanting to read before school so bad it hurt, I couldn't wait, but still in no way was I reading even the simplest street signs or sentences _before preschool_. This amazes me to no end)

He loves to watch sports on tv and he's very familiar with every team and their upcoming schedule. He knows what time a game will be on and what channel (for multiple sports). He might read books all day one day and the next day watch old college basketball games on ESPN Classic as long as I'd let him.

Behavior: With people he's newly met or doesn't know very well as mentioned above he's near silent at all times. Among family or friends he's seen many (many, (sometimes it takes MANY) times HE IS AN ABSOLUTE DELIGHT. In 5 years he has had very few behavioral issues. When he was younger he would tend to start to cry when he didn't get his way but that's mostly gone now. In every other possible way he follows directions, is kind, talkative, engaged, a wonderful brother to our 1yo, great with animals, I could go on.

I know this is quite the book and I thank whoever made it this far for their effort. I just wanted to give some reference for my next comments:

My wife and I go back and forth like ping-pong or something with worry, after today's comments from the teacher I am starting to think he should be tested. She has switched back to the "he'll be fine it was his first day" position. During T-Ball my position was who cares if he thought he wanted to do it and it turned out he didn't like it, nothing wrong with not wanting to play some sport, and yet she was crying regularly about it. As you can see we are on opposite ends today.

So the crux of it, I came on to look (again) at some symptoms for Autism or Asperger. Admittedly most of the symptoms he doesn't have, like reading facial expressions which he seems to be fine at judging people's mood etc, or empathy or any of the "meltdowns" and on and on, he simply doesn't seem to have these things.

BUT: On these forums I read this which finally made me start crying and consider at least a professional consultation:
"Children with AS, on the other hand, don't do things they are told for two reasons.
1. The reasons most children don't do things they are told.
2. Because they can't. For one reason or another, it's too much for them. "

#2 scares me to death. As any of you who are parents surely understand, my sons are my world. To constantly try to force my child to do something he is _physically unable to do_ is the worst thing I can imagine.


I am the one who made the above comment why children with AS don't do things. However there is a difference between trying to force someone to do something they can't, and guiding someone to learn how to do something.

In most situations where the child with AS is being forced and shutting down, the task they are being forced to do would usually be considered mundane and simple to the asker. The asker does not empathize with the perspective of the child and doesn't understand why the child is being "difficult". This causes the asker to persist with their demands or become angry or frustrated with the child, and the situation usually turns into something bigger than it should have. Frequently, the task being asked of the child is also a "no accountability" task in that it is not mandated by an individual, but by a policy or law, and the asker is really a proctor who has the responsibility of delivering the information of what is to be done, and seeing to it that it's done. School work is often an example of this.

So the asker often has either has very little understanding of the child's situation, and/or very little discretion over what the child does and doesn't have to do, and the task is frequently not prioritized to be in the child's best interest.

When you are guiding someone, however, ideally you are aware of the situation they are in. Ideally you are also aware of their actual limitations and when to back off, attempt a new method to accomplish the goal, or find another way to help the child navigate the obstacle.

Your son actually sounds similar to me when I was his age. That he makes an effort to avoid bumping into people when getting in line but accepts contact in other situations very strongly suggests to me that your son might have some form of NVLD, which is not necessarily any different from AS with a few debatable exceptions. Many people with NVLD also have AS, and many people with AS also have NVLD.

People with NVLD are thought to have right brain processing deficits and this can impact things like spatial perception and visual processing speed. Your son might actually be trying to stay out of the way of others because he may not have a good sense of how to orient himself and he might not be able to process incoming information fast enough to respond to it as quickly as others. At the same time, he probably doesn't actually consciously notice this. Instead, his brain circumvents the issue by literally going around people. This also extends to processing and understanding social situations. And so, people who meet this profile generally need a lot of space and time to themselves to think and analyze situations. They are not stupid. In fact they are frequently of above average intelligence, and very big thinkers. They just parse information slowly.

Thinking back, thing my parents could have done to help me socially would have probably been to direct me more, in a literal manner. I recall my mother doing this once when I was 5 after we moved. She led me by the arm to one of the neighbors house who had a girl my age, knocked on the door, and introduced us. She asked the little girl her name and then told her my name, and then she told me to say hello. Her mother invited us in. They had a dog which I was fascinated with and the little girl was actually very engaging, and asked me many questions which my mother prompted me to answer.

There after, on a few occasions my mother would prompt me to go play or the little girl would come and ask me to play. I was never forced to play when I didn't want to though. I lived on that street for about a year. Unfortunately my mother never really did anything like that again and I repeatedly failed to engage with other children on my own, because aside from not really knowing that people normally due such thing, I didn't really know how to interact with people on multiple levels due to my AS/NVLD issues.

So do try to aid your child in engaging with others and do be involved and proactive about it but do it in a manner your child can handle.



nervousparent
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08 Dec 2011, 12:20 pm

Gosh, thanks for all your responses!

After reading and reading, in my opinion for so many possible disorders he only shows one or possibly two of the symptoms (and I do as well, and I'm sure most people). However, in the pamphlet for signs your child is gifted he matches every single sign. This seems good news to me but with its own challenges. My wife has been boxing at a local gym for exercise recently and last night and she took him, when she was changing she came out and saw him talking to an adult and boxing with him with my wife's gloves. He has been getting much better at talking to new adults. I guess I just get concerned because at school there's going to be so many children wondering why my son won't talk to them.

He's back to school today and his goal is to respond to one child who talks to him. The teacher seemed quite surprised (possibly unconvinced) that he could read so well and asked him to bring his favorite book today. So the other part of his goal is to read a little of his atlas if asked.

I'm very nervous and yes I understand it's only his second day at the new school but it's the same behavior he's shown for years. Not just (in the boy scout case above) not remembering children's names from class, he actually does remember most names of both children and adults. I believe this is mostly just because he has a great memory. But the thing is he _NEVER_ speaks to a child _EVER_. There may be something to the fact that he doesn't think he has anything in common with the children he's introduced to. If I had to completely guess I would say that they simply make him nervous. Children aren't nearly as predictable as adults and he's seen them get angry or have tantrums or not listen to their parents and on and on, these are all things he never does. I think (although still very shy at first) he's much more comfortable around adults because he doesn't worry about how they might act at a given moment.

There is one is example of him speaking to a child not in our family. At story hour at the library which he has been going to for probably two years now every thursday. A girl was really taken to him and sat by him and spoke to him although he never spoke back. One day we had the idea that her and her nanny should come with us to mcdonald's, when he got to the library he went right up to the little girl and said (not whispering or anything) "Would you like to come with us for lunch at mcdonald's?". So in that one instance when he really wanted to he spoke perfectly fine to another child. In 5+ years this is the only case but it's something at least. Not in a full season of t-ball, not in two years of story hours, not in a few months at his other preschool, but on that day he spoke like it was nothing.

I thank you for all your responses. I will give this new school some time and probably report back here with any progress. You've given me much to think about.



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08 Dec 2011, 12:54 pm

I have to say, I have as much problem with the word "gifted" as I do with the word "defect." I know that people here mean it in terms of certain criteria, but I think that kind of label just does the opposite of what the more negative labels do: it focuses on the child's strengths and ignores their weaknesses. My brother went to a "gifted" school, graduated and entered college in his sophomore year at 16. He got all the way through graduate school and finally realized, just before his dissertation, that he had never really wanted a Phd. He continues to struggle with the disparity between his intellectual life and his social skills. The family I grew up in is filled with people with advanced degrees who live lonely lives.

This is not to say that there isn't room to challenge kids intellectually when they need it - just that it's important to make sure that kids get what they need in all areas, not just the ones where they excel.

I often remind parents that many, many kids who exhibit these symptoms have a deficit in social communication called "Pragmatic Language;" it's a common issue in Autism. There are tests and therapies that your school (or public school district, if you're in a private school) should be able to offer your child; it's a good place to start for kids who have difficulty interacting without mechanical speech issues.

Here are some articles that offer an overview of some of the symptoms that appear to relate to what you're concerned about:
http://www.autismspeaks.org/family-serv ... troduction
(scroll down to the list of symptoms)
http://autism.about.com/od/whatisautism ... cation.htm