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Teredia
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09 Dec 2011, 9:39 am

I was always taught it was wrong or bad to feel sorry for people, but sometimes as ive gotten to know people i cant help it.
Whats your oppinion on feeling sorry for other people?

For example:

If they live on teh street.

Are on the Spectrum.

Are not on the spectrum (Yeah i feel sorry for these peeps cause they just dont get me at 90% of the time).

have other mental/behavioral disorders.



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09 Dec 2011, 9:52 am

Teredia wrote:
I was always taught it was wrong or bad to feel sorry for people, but sometimes as ive gotten to know people i cant help it.
Whats your oppinion on feeling sorry for other people?

For example:

If they live on teh street.

Are on the Spectrum.

Are not on the spectrum (Yeah i feel sorry for these peeps cause they just dont get me at 90% of the time).

have other mental/behavioral disorders.


I feel bad for people starving to death in 3rd world countries, Schizophrenia, people being bullied, ext.

I do not feel sorry for kids my age who get there phones taken away for a day and like there life is over.



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09 Dec 2011, 9:53 am

Feeling sorry for people is a good thing, if you truly mean feeling sorry for them. That's what motivates people to help others. It's caring.

There is another type of feeling sorry, but it's a facetious type. As in "I feel so sorry for him cause all he does is drink all the time and won't go to work" which means you really don't feel sorry for him, you feel disdain for him, but you say it like that to be able to talk about him without sounding like you are mean. It's usually followed up with "And I REALLY feel sorry for his kids!"

But, I do think you mean the first way, which is a good thing. Why would somebody tell you it's a bad thing? Some people who have to deal with challanges don't want pity, but they are glad to have sympathy or empathy. Pity implies that the person is too weak, lazy, stupid, unlucky, etc to be able to do anything about their situation. Pity can also be extreme feeling sorry for someone, like if you pity your dog because you love him and have had him so long and now he's so old he has bad arthritis and can't get around.

So, so many of those words or phrases can be used to mean so many different things. I always have to ask for clarification on them.

To me, feeling sorry for somebody means "I wish that you weren't in that situation, and if I could do something within reason to help you get out of it, I would" I've also heard it said to mean "I wish you wouldn't get yourself into those situations, but you always do, even though you know better". I've actually said it like that too. It's the tone that implies which one you mean.

You sound like you mean it the genuine way, and that's a good thing. It's the very basis of why people help others. If nobody felt sorry for somebody else, there would be no charities, service organizations, etc. Feeling sorry for someone, genuinely feeling sorry for them, because of things that happened to them that are beyond their control, while still respecting them as a person, and treating them with dignity because you know they didn't choose their situation, is what motivates a lot of people to do a whole lot of good.

I guess, my basic point is, and I've used a lot of words to get there, is that feeling sorry for someone without looking down on them or thinking of them as less than yourself or others, is something that we should all try to be able to do.

Frances



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09 Dec 2011, 10:08 am

Frances, I entire agree with you.
Yes i meant it from that "kind and caring" point of view.

Though for some reason I have 2 types of kind and caring feeling sorry fores.

Ones the "I know you're in a situation you cannot controll, I understand entirely i have the same problem"
and the others "you're jelouse of me? why? I really feel sorry for you, my life's not that much better."

im not sure if these are the same or not but to me their different.



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09 Dec 2011, 10:10 am

A lot of the time I try to sense first whether there's an ulterior motive behind it e.g. outside Euston station in London, there was a guy who was begging for money, and I saw him swap with another guy who started to do it. I thought that it looked a bit strange. I realise this was more an anomaly than the usual...although I guess you can't know for sure.

Also, when other people try and "make" you feel sorry for them, it's a form of manipulation whether they intend it or not. Like, when that person would rather make out that they're too stupid/helpless/unable to do something so they get their own way.



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09 Dec 2011, 10:32 am

There is a difference between compassion and pity. My friend with blindness (her choice of terms) demonstrated the difference. Compassion leads us to ask how we can help. DC, my friend, liked it when people asked how they could help rather than barging in thinking they were helping. She didn't like it when people pitied her. For one thing, she's perfectly capable of getting around on her own and quite successful. For another, pity leads people to do things like grab her arm and haul her around--which really pisses her off--or make stupid comments about how she couldn't possibly be able to get around on her own. Pity limits. Compassion empowers. Basically that's it.


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09 Dec 2011, 10:42 am

smudge wrote:
A lot of the time I try to sense first whether there's an ulterior motive behind it e.g. outside Euston station in London, there was a guy who was begging for money, and I saw him swap with another guy who started to do it. I thought that it looked a bit strange. I realise this was more an anomaly than the usual...although I guess you can't know for sure.

Also, when other people try and "make" you feel sorry for them, it's a form of manipulation whether they intend it or not. Like, when that person would rather make out that they're too stupid/helpless/unable to do something so they get their own way.


I never believe people begging for money. I've known quite a few people who were on the street, back when I was younger. At the Mission they give you a place to stay after 5pm and at night and breakfast and dinner, and yes you do have to leave during the day but they will also send you to day job places or even to places where you can do volunteer work and many of the volunteer places have a lot of handicapped people working there. So, you don't have to be out on the street all day. The people I've known who would beg for money etc were doing it for drugs.

I'm sure there is a small percentage who do it for actual food or to rent a hotel room for the night etc, but I always think it's all for drugs. Even the "Will work for food" people. I have a story about that one.

My friend who worked for a cable company one day, had his helper call in sick. Now, he was an independant contractor so he hired his own help. He couldn't find anybody free that day, and living in the city he saw this one couple who is always there standing by the freeway entrance with the will work for food sign. He pulled over and asked them if they would like to work a day and he would feed them and also pay them cash at the end of the day. THey said yes, and drove about 50 miles out to where they would be working. They were digging ditches to lay a cable line. He had told them this when he asked them. They started working and not 30 minutes in, the husband said he had a bad back. Yeah, just now he mentions that. He said he had to rest and could my friend get him a beer? My friend said no beer till the end of the day, rest in the truck for a few then come back. Wife kept working but not really doing it. After an hour my friend went to see about the guy. Sound asleep. Asked if he was ready to work. Guy starts working again, then says it's still hurting does my friend have a couple of Lortab? My friend gave him a Goody Powder. Said that's all I got. Now it's the wife. Suddenly she has cramps. They kept this up all day, and by lunch they were wanting to go back to their "spot". They weren't hungry when he got lunch but just wanted the cash he was going to give them for the food. He told them no, they have to wait till the end of the day since they didn't want food. At about 5pm he took them back. He sat down and figured their amount of actual work and paid them for the combined three hours they did, which was only about $15 back then. They got so mad at him. He suggested they change their sign to "Will lay around and complain for cash, beer or drugs"

Frances



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09 Dec 2011, 11:03 am

i can feel sad about some people's sad lives. i know they do not deserve to suffer.

i feel sorry for my girlfriend Tammy in a way. she is mildly ret*d, and when her parents are not at home, she is trapped in utter boredom because she can not think of anything at all to do. she rings me up and she says "hi", but that is all she has prepared to say, and i have to then steer the conversation.

example

telephone :ring ring.... ring ring....

me: yes?! (annoyed at the interruption)

tammy: hi.

me : (realizing it is her) errr...hello tammy.
her: hi.
me: so what is happening?
tammy; not much.
me: what did you do today?
tammy: not much.
me: what did you have for lunch ?
tammy: not much.
me: but what did you eat?
tammy: a chicken wrap.
me: did you make it or buy it?
tammy : bought it.
me: have you been out today?
tammy: yes i went to the club house.
me: what time did you get there?
tammy:9 o'clock (am)
me: how long did you stay there?
her: until just after lunch.
me: so you bought the chicken wrap from the clubhouse?
tammy :yeah
me: was it nice?
tammy: it was not as nice today as it was last week.
me: why?
tammy: because it just wasn't.
me: what? was the chicken dry and boring or...
tammy: yes it was dry and boring.
me: why do you eat so much chicken?
tammy: chicken is the most favored meat in australia at the moment.
me: is that why you bought it?
tammy: well....yeah i guess so.
me: do you like meat pies?
tammy: oh god i love meat pies! don't get me started on meat pies.
me: do they sell them at the clubhouse?
tammy: no
me: is there a bakery near by to the clubhouse?
tammy: yes, there is one up the street.
me: how far away?
tammy: ermm i guess....i don't really know.
me: how long would it take you to walk there?
tammy: about 10 minutes.
me: is that too far?
tammy: no.
me: well why don't you wander up there and get some meat pies next time you are at the club house?
tammy: actually, that is a good idea! i will go there on monday.
me: what sauce do you use on meat pies?
tammy: barbecue sauce.
me: oh dear. i would not eat meat pies or sausage rolls with any other sauce than tomato sauce. in fact when i get sausage rolls, i like to peel the pastry off them and eat it seperately to the meat filling.
tammy: oh god yes!! ! i am like that too.

.......

anyway the conversation takes off, and we talk for more than 90 minutes on the phone most days, but i know that when i hang up, she will again be imprisoned in a mindset of boredom, and it is like she is in prison because unless i steward her to think things, she does not think of anything much, and she experiences a feeling of painful stagnation.

tammy can not have any fun on her own because she has no ideas. i have wondered what that may be like and i can see it would be a very sad and unfortunate way to be.

she loves me and i love her more than anything in the universe. i feel her strong love and i am very sad that she was born with a brain that is disabled.

i can talk to her in a way where she comes out of her torpor and she feels lifted up, and that is the best feeling i can have.
she said that i remind her of the song "love lifted me up where i belong".
i feel so sorry for her, and i will flood her with all the love i have in my.......my circuits.

my love is not very well built like the love of normal people, but i give it all to tammy because i want her to be happy.

she comes over once per week, and we have a very good time together and we sleep soundly in each others arms, and i can not understand why other people see her as less than adequate to be a friend to. they think she is simple and ret*d and they dismiss her, and i know that the quality and flavor of her love is so real and true and i value it unconditionally until i die.

whatever i am rambling because i am too tired and so i will stop here.



OliveOilMom
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09 Dec 2011, 11:19 am

Have you considered that she might like to do some kind of crafts? My kids have always liked crafts. Depending on how her motor and processing skills are, there are a lot of things she could do. If she has trouble coming up with ideas of things to do at home, bored, I wouldn't suggest something like a big craft box and say "Have at it" which is what we do, but something more along the lines of a kit of some sort.

Something thats very easy and inexpensive is a hooked rug kit. It comes with a big piece of plastic or canvase grid that's stamped with the colors to use and the precut yarn and a hook. It's only one movement and easy to master. They come in all skill levels, and designs. I would go to a craft store for that, although someplace like Wal Mart here has them. You could look around.

Make sure they let you open it up and look at the grid first though. It should be a color stamped one, not one with a seperate piece of paper with the grid on it where you have to count, like for needlepoint. Those are difficult. Make sure the color stamped grid has color in all the colored areas. Some of them can skip a square or two and it's very confusing. I did them when I was a kid, and I would get so upset because I didn't know which color that one little square should be.

There are also lots of other crafts to do. I know it sounds something like OT in a mental hospital to suggest this for somebody, but it's something we do around here all the time. I've always done crafts myself and it was only natural that when my kids were bored I would give them something to actually do, ie; make, than just something to play with or watch. I'm 47 and will gladly sit all day doing crafts.

Once you get into doing them, you start seeing things around that you could use for crafts and coming up with ideas. We have a lamp with a glass shade that is partially clear and partially frosted. The clear parts were flower and leaf designs. My oldest DD saw some glass paints at Wal Mart and asked if she could paint the lamp shade. It took her a month to finish it, but she painted in all the clear glass flower and leaf areas. We didn't buy the expensive paints either, just those kids glass paints to use for suncatchers in the plastic thingy. About $6.

I can think of some other things craftwise if you can tell me her skill levels. If you think she would like crafts at all. If you suggest a rug, why not get each of you a kit? You can do yours in your spare time and she can do hers in her spare time. When you are finished, you can have them framed and hang the rug that each other did in your rooms.

Frances



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09 Dec 2011, 11:22 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
smudge wrote:
A lot of the time I try to sense first whether there's an ulterior motive behind it e.g. outside Euston station in London, there was a guy who was begging for money, and I saw him swap with another guy who started to do it. I thought that it looked a bit strange. I realise this was more an anomaly than the usual...although I guess you can't know for sure.

Also, when other people try and "make" you feel sorry for them, it's a form of manipulation whether they intend it or not. Like, when that person would rather make out that they're too stupid/helpless/unable to do something so they get their own way.


My friend who worked for a cable company one day, had his helper call in sick. Now, he was an independant contractor so he hired his own help. He couldn't find anybody free that day, and living in the city he saw this one couple who is always there standing by the freeway entrance with the will work for food sign. He pulled over and asked them if they would like to work a day and he would feed them and also pay them cash at the end of the day. THey said yes, and drove about 50 miles out to where they would be working. They were digging ditches to lay a cable line. He had told them this when he asked them. They started working and not 30 minutes in, the husband said he had a bad back. Yeah, just now he mentions that. He said he had to rest and could my friend get him a beer? My friend said no beer till the end of the day, rest in the truck for a few then come back. Wife kept working but not really doing it. After an hour my friend went to see about the guy. Sound asleep. Asked if he was ready to work. Guy starts working again, then says it's still hurting does my friend have a couple of Lortab? My friend gave him a Goody Powder. Said that's all I got. Now it's the wife. Suddenly she has cramps. They kept this up all day, and by lunch they were wanting to go back to their "spot". They weren't hungry when he got lunch but just wanted the cash he was going to give them for the food. He told them no, they have to wait till the end of the day since they didn't want food. At about 5pm he took them back. He sat down and figured their amount of actual work and paid them for the combined three hours they did, which was only about $15 back then. They got so mad at him. He suggested they change their sign to "Will lay around and complain for cash, beer or drugs"

Frances


That's an interesting story. I've just remembered some programme that was on channel 4 about middle class people hanging out with the homeless. I remember a middle class man trying to get this homeless guy a job by giving him a temporary address, and the homeless guy would not have any of it. I realise this is a different circumstance, though, and I don't know why the homeless guy didn't want it. There could be lots of reasons.



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09 Dec 2011, 11:43 am

smudge wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
smudge wrote:
A lot of the time I try to sense first whether there's an ulterior motive behind it e.g. outside Euston station in London, there was a guy who was begging for money, and I saw him swap with another guy who started to do it. I thought that it looked a bit strange. I realise this was more an anomaly than the usual...although I guess you can't know for sure.

Also, when other people try and "make" you feel sorry for them, it's a form of manipulation whether they intend it or not. Like, when that person would rather make out that they're too stupid/helpless/unable to do something so they get their own way.


My friend who worked for a cable company one day, had his helper call in sick. Now, he was an independant contractor so he hired his own help. He couldn't find anybody free that day, and living in the city he saw this one couple who is always there standing by the freeway entrance with the will work for food sign. He pulled over and asked them if they would like to work a day and he would feed them and also pay them cash at the end of the day. THey said yes, and drove about 50 miles out to where they would be working. They were digging ditches to lay a cable line. He had told them this when he asked them. They started working and not 30 minutes in, the husband said he had a bad back. Yeah, just now he mentions that. He said he had to rest and could my friend get him a beer? My friend said no beer till the end of the day, rest in the truck for a few then come back. Wife kept working but not really doing it. After an hour my friend went to see about the guy. Sound asleep. Asked if he was ready to work. Guy starts working again, then says it's still hurting does my friend have a couple of Lortab? My friend gave him a Goody Powder. Said that's all I got. Now it's the wife. Suddenly she has cramps. They kept this up all day, and by lunch they were wanting to go back to their "spot". They weren't hungry when he got lunch but just wanted the cash he was going to give them for the food. He told them no, they have to wait till the end of the day since they didn't want food. At about 5pm he took them back. He sat down and figured their amount of actual work and paid them for the combined three hours they did, which was only about $15 back then. They got so mad at him. He suggested they change their sign to "Will lay around and complain for cash, beer or drugs"

Frances


That's an interesting story. I've just remembered some programme that was on channel 4 about middle class people hanging out with the homeless. I remember a middle class man trying to get this homeless guy a job by giving him a temporary address, and the homeless guy would not have any of it. I realise this is a different circumstance, though, and I don't know why the homeless guy didn't want it. There could be lots of reasons.


Such as its illegal to use a fake address for employment...


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09 Dec 2011, 11:49 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
Have you considered that she might like to do some kind of crafts? My kids have always liked crafts. Depending on how her motor and processing skills are, there are a lot of things she could do. If she has trouble coming up with ideas of things to do at home, bored, I wouldn't suggest something like a big craft box and say "Have at it" which is what we do, but something more along the lines of a kit of some sort.

Something thats very easy and inexpensive is a hooked rug kit. It comes with a big piece of plastic or canvase grid that's stamped with the colors to use and the precut yarn and a hook. It's only one movement and easy to master. They come in all skill levels, and designs. I would go to a craft store for that, although someplace like Wal Mart here has them. You could look around.

Make sure they let you open it up and look at the grid first though. It should be a color stamped one, not one with a seperate piece of paper with the grid on it where you have to count, like for needlepoint. Those are difficult. Make sure the color stamped grid has color in all the colored areas. Some of them can skip a square or two and it's very confusing. I did them when I was a kid, and I would get so upset because I didn't know which color that one little square should be.


i am too tired to reply at the moment and i am switching everything off, and i will answer you tomorrow. yes i have considered crafts but i will talk tomorrow because my battery's are flat.



OliveOilMom wrote:
There are also lots of other crafts to do. I know it sounds something like OT in a mental hospital to suggest this for somebody, but it's something we do around here all the time. I've always done crafts myself and it was only natural that when my kids were bored I would give them something to actually do, ie; make, than just something to play with or watch. I'm 47 and will gladly sit all day doing crafts.

Once you get into doing them, you start seeing things around that you could use for crafts and coming up with ideas. We have a lamp with a glass shade that is partially clear and partially frosted. The clear parts were flower and leaf designs. My oldest DD saw some glass paints at Wal Mart and asked if she could paint the lamp shade. It took her a month to finish it, but she painted in all the clear glass flower and leaf areas. We didn't buy the expensive paints either, just those kids glass paints to use for suncatchers in the plastic thingy. About $6.

I can think of some other things craftwise if you can tell me her skill levels. If you think she would like crafts at all. If you suggest a rug, why not get each of you a kit? You can do yours in your spare time and she can do hers in her spare time. When you are finished, you can have them framed and hang the rug that each other did in your rooms.

Frances


my batteries are flat and i must sleep now but i will answer this tomorrow



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09 Dec 2011, 11:52 am

This is going to sound cynical, and maybe I am on this topic. Back when I was about 19 and 20, I hung out with a lot of people in this area that was a very bohemian area of the city - we lived in the city then - and all about New Wave, Punk, and also drugs. There were several people in their 20s and 30s living on trust funds or govt assistance who had apartments there, the area was pretty low rent but was just beginning to have areas that were becoming gentrified. There were plenty of people who we hung with who were homeless. Basically by choice. Lots of them were late teens, early 20s, some older. They had family they could go to, but they couldn't go to their families and do the things we were all doing every night, and usually all day too. Most didn't work. Some did, but not for long. Some worked selling drugs. Most slept on the floor or couches of friends they knew there, or when those places were full they slept in either their car or a friends car or when it was nice weather, in the park. I stayed away from home for three months there myself, although I still had my part time job and occasionally went home for more clothes or to raid the fridge while my mother was at work. I've slept in the park. I've slept in my car. I've slept on couches and floors. It was like an adventure to me, but it was a way of life to some of them.

The thing about not wanting a job, from what I remember from the people I knew, wasn't that they were just lazy. Nobody will work as hard for you as a junkie if they see immediate reward. It was that a regular job would interfere with things that were more important to them. 1. the search for drugs because sometimes that took all day, and 2. partying. Some of the boys would go to those day labor places from time to time and get work for a day or two, or they would figure out ways to get money. It was always for drugs, or booze, or sometimes if there was noplace else to stay, to pitch in on a hotel room. Maybe a few dollars for a cheap burger once a day or every other day, depending. They were homeless by choice. If it's done for a year or two until the person matures enough then they usually go back to normal life. Sometimes addiction overcomes them and they don't want anything else.

There are other types of homelessness. Those who are mentally ill, have no family, can't hold a job, and can't get placement in a hospital or center to help them are a different story. I do feel sorry for them. There isn't anything I can do for them, but I do feel bad for them. Many of them have addictions too, so there is no gaurantee that what money you give will go to food or shelter or meds.

Some people are temporarily homeless by circumstance. Those who had a fire, or a bankruptcy, or lost a job and then their home. There are places to help with that but they can only help so long, and sometimes it takes longer than that to get on your feet again. Once they are on the street it becomes almost impossible to get a job because you can't shower or dress nice for the interview, you probably have no transportation and certainly no address or phone to get back in touch with you to hire you. I don't know how to solve that one. Also, if you are up front with the employer and say "I'm homeless at the moment, I'm trying to get back on my feet" he's going to immediately think you are some junkie bum who just wants to work a week or two for party money and then disappear or that you are going to rob him blind, or not show up to work or if you do, you'll show up wasted.

So, I do feel sorry for the last two types of homeless people. I do believe that by far, most of the homeless are in the first two types. I also think some mentally ill people will choose homelessness also because even though they know they need their meds, they have gotten addicted to something and that addiction is stronger than the desire for the meds, so when they go off their meds they lose their place in the hospital, etc they are in, or are kicked out of a family home. I don't see that situation as the same as the first situation though, the first one is a conscious decision to live like that. Usually it starts with that one as sleeping on a friends couch for a few nights, then couch surfing for a few months, then thats all you do and it spirals down.

Frances



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09 Dec 2011, 11:54 am

I don't pity people (though I admittedly pity myself at times xD), but I do care about those in need and want to help them.



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09 Dec 2011, 11:56 am

I just finished telling someone I felt bad for them. Didn't even see this thread.

I agree with OliveOilMom. There's a huge difference between feeling genuinely bad for someone,
and pretending to feel bad for them, while in reality your ego is having a schadenfreude (sp?) field day. (believing yourself to be superior to their misery).
The helping professions are littered with clandestine forms of this.
And no, I'm not saying that everyone who works in a helping profession does this, but rather that it is a draw for some people, especially if they're a bit atypical themselves.
It's much more pleasant to look across your desk at a client, and think That person really has a problem, while I have this office, and nameplate, which therefore proves.......

Women's social aggression often takes this form. "Poor thing", "Bless her/his heart"...

People, can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. :)- :(



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09 Dec 2011, 12:08 pm

I've learned how to fake sympathy for people, but feeling it for real is something I will probably never master.


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