Why does our democracy no longer appear to work?

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Robdemanc
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13 Dec 2011, 2:02 pm

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
fraac wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
fraac wrote:
Autistics did invent morality, surely? But how did it saturate society as an ideal way to be? Or NTs invented it to delude themselves. There's so much weirdness going on here.


I am confused with what you are saying. I would say morality came about in an evolutionary way, in gradual steps. It changes depending on circumstances facing a society. It was once considered moral for women to do as men told them. But that is not the case now. Surely you don't mean autistic people made these changes and NTs followed us?


Oppression of women evolved too - that's how churches came about. That kind of de facto morality is always shifting, it's culturally dependent. And a lot of NT philosophers will insist that morality is culturally dependent. But that's not autistic morality, which is very clear because it depends on reality.


What is meant by autistic morality? Do you mean: Telling the truth, whistle blowing etc?

Well you would be right, NT's only tell the truth if they think they absolutely have to and they know they cannot get away with lying.


Thanks a lot.


Sorry, but in my experience that is what happens.



MarcusTulliusCicero
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13 Dec 2011, 2:12 pm

Republicans with big mouths.

Illinois democrats.

'nuff said



Fnord
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13 Dec 2011, 3:54 pm

Our government seems to not work because there are too many special interests for any one to have a clear majority in the voting process - not one of them will get its way all of the time, and none of them will be satisfied with the way the government is being run.

End result? Every special interest group believes that because the government does not work for them, it does not work at all.



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13 Dec 2011, 11:20 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
if the majority of people think they can vote for president and that it will actually change things then why would they bother looking into who's really running things and take a look around at how screwed up everything is.


actually agree with this statement. thats why voting for a leader that appears to be better or more left wing but actually isnt because theyre all looking out for the interests of the wealthy can ret*d the growth of social movements and the growth of militancy in the working class and activists. obama is a case in point. i remember when he first was running and spouting all that "yes we can" (bob the builder must be ticked his line got stolen) fluff and everyone was really optimistic about him because he wasnt bush. he was new, young, seemingly forward thinking, charismatic and he wasnt bush. demobilised social movements and the left was just totally enamoured with him because who could be as backward as bush? surely obama would be more liberal? nope. wrong. this perception of him being liberal just distrated away from this:

Image

and obama just continued the crappy policies of his predecessor un-noticed and unchallenged for some time. the left started to reject him again eventually. though some members of the left were already hard on him which helps.


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Inuyasha
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14 Dec 2011, 12:30 am

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:
Republicans with big mouths.

Illinois democrats.

'nuff said


Actually I would say thank god for the loud mouth Republicans....

I live only a few hours away from Chicago, the corruption of Chicago politicians (especially Democrats) actually makes Washington DC politicians look like saints.



Robdemanc
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14 Dec 2011, 6:44 am

Fnord wrote:
Our government seems to not work because there are too many special interests for any one to have a clear majority in the voting process - not one of them will get its way all of the time, and none of them will be satisfied with the way the government is being run.

End result? Every special interest group believes that because the government does not work for them, it does not work at all.


Thats quite a good comment, I can see what you mean. And not all the people can be pleased, only some of them some of the time. But I reckon right now, there are only an elite few who are pleased and I reckon even some of them are not that pleased with the way things have gone with the banks and politicians.



ruveyn
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14 Dec 2011, 8:15 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Where do you think it leads? it leads to a complete catastrophe...I am not exactly sure what the plan is but I know it involves the 1% everyones talking about trying to screw everyone else over.



Finally, you reached a conclusion! Congratulations. I happen to agree with it.

ruveyn



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14 Dec 2011, 9:05 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Where do you think it leads? it leads to a complete catastrophe...I am not exactly sure what the plan is but I know it involves the 1% everyones talking about trying to screw everyone else over.



Finally, you reached a conclusion! Congratulations. I happen to agree with it.

ruveyn


glad you agree I guess, but then I don't really like getting spoken too like an idiot who's incapable of having a thought process........so maybe I'm not so glad :huh:


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MarcusTulliusCicero
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14 Dec 2011, 9:55 am

Inuyasha wrote:
MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:
Republicans with big mouths.

Illinois democrats.

'nuff said

Actually I would say thank god for the loud mouth Republicans....

I live only a few hours away from Chicago, the corruption of Chicago politicians (especially Democrats) actually makes Washington DC politicians look like saints.

You're praising a negative trait

Are you considered some sort of republican wrecking ball around here?



techstepgenr8tion
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14 Dec 2011, 10:36 am

When its top down hardly anyone cares or pays attention, they barely need to, and the most you'll get from a lot of people are quite pedestrian complaints about their politicians. They'll go in to the voting booth, vote for whoever's fashionable or whoever looks best behind a desk in their opinion, and its becoming quite clear that our level of education on our elected officials is getting to be truly aweful.

I have no problem with centralized codes of laws but it seems there just needs to be more of an investment into local level politics, state level politics, and let it lead up to federal that way. The more interest in local politics after all the more people feel like they're jacked-in to the process and the more likely they'll have some amount of pride in knowing who they're voting for or why they're voting yes to issue 4, no to issue 5, etc..


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ruveyn
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14 Dec 2011, 10:52 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I have no problem with centralized codes of laws but it seems there just needs to be more of an investment into local level politics, state level politics, and let it lead up to federal that way. The more interest in local politics after all the more people feel like they're jacked-in to the process and the more likely they'll have some amount of pride in knowing who they're voting for or why they're voting yes to issue 4, no to issue 5, etc..


Bottom up is generally better than top down. Top down has the potential for disaster if it is misdirected.

ruveyn



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14 Dec 2011, 12:39 pm

Fnord wrote:
Our government seems to not work because there are too many special interests for any one to have a clear majority in the voting process - not one of them will get its way all of the time, and none of them will be satisfied with the way the government is being run.

End result? Every special interest group believes that because the government does not work for them, it does not work at all.


That's because no one understands the difference between dialectic and debate anymore... hell, most have never even heard of dialectic. Which goes directly back to my observation that:

GoonSquad wrote:
However, I think neglecting the humanities/classical subjects is why society is going to hell in a hand basket.

American society was conceived by men with classical educations to be run by men with classical educations.

The reason society is deteriorating so much is because people no longer understand why things need to be done a certain way....


Once upon a time American politicians understood that dialectic not debate was the key to working together--the key to FINDING a common good.


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29 Dec 2016, 7:45 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Please don't slate me for going off the deep end here but I am wondering if our democracy has reached a point where it no longer works the way it was intended, and the reason is because we are all too used to human nature (particularly NT) and can predict how politicians are going to spin things, and they can predict how we are going to react to their spin. The newspapers almost seem to be guessing what will happen before things happen (like outcomes of policy decisions, how opposition will react, and how government will react to their reaction etc.)

Perhaps it has all turned into a silly game now, and it almost looks like a pantomine going on infront of our eyes.

In the UK we had a ridiculous referendem last year on changing the vote system. We had two choices: stick with the one weve got, or have a complicated rank system of voting. I think it was predictable that most people would want to stick with the same system because the new one appeared too complicated. I was angry because I want them to change it so that at General election time we vote for the party we want in government, and not our local elected MPs. Then all votes are counted up regardless of the constituency and whoever gets the most gets into government. That would be more valuable to people at general elections and I think more people would vote.



I don't know how exactly the UK system works, but your idea of having majority determine it may not work how you think. In the US this election cycle, Hillary got the popular vote for President but Trump got the electoral vote. The way our system was set up, Trump won. Our system gave every state skin in the game. If we had had just a popular vote, then technically a couple of states could determine the Presidency. I think about 8 states in the US (or maybe even less) have over 50% of the US population. So if we had a direct election of President, all you'd need to do is campaign in those 8 states and win and you could give the other 42 the finger. Of course, the result would be that the people in the other 42 or so states, feeling they had NO say, would decide it might be best to break from the union and form their own country.

If you had something like you proposed in the UK, then some big cities like London could basically be electing all the policy makers there who would then be telling the rest of the UK what to do even though the rest of the UK may never have voted for any of those guys.

Would you be happy if people living in an area which was, at most, about 20% of the UK, but which happened to be over 50% of the population of the UK, was possibly voting on people who could determine the rights of the people who lived in the other 80% of the UK that had less than 50% of the people and had no idea of their needs and wants?



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29 Dec 2016, 7:48 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
Please don't slate me for going off the deep end here but I am wondering if our democracy has reached a point where it no longer works the way it was intended, and the reason is because we are all too used to human nature (particularly NT) and can predict how politicians are going to spin things, and they can predict how we are going to react to their spin. The newspapers almost seem to be guessing what will happen before things happen (like outcomes of policy decisions, how opposition will react, and how government will react to their reaction etc.)

Perhaps it has all turned into a silly game now, and it almost looks like a pantomine going on infront of our eyes.

In the UK we had a ridiculous referendem last year on changing the vote system. We had two choices: stick with the one weve got, or have a complicated rank system of voting. I think it was predictable that most people would want to stick with the same system because the new one appeared too complicated. I was angry because I want them to change it so that at General election time we vote for the party we want in government, and not our local elected MPs. Then all votes are counted up regardless of the constituency and whoever gets the most gets into government. That would be more valuable to people at general elections and I think more people would vote.


Very simple. Democracy is on a certain course to destruction when the people of a democracy aided by crafty politicians assume majority control of the nations's treasury. Once the "the People" get the key to the cash drawer by way of politicians who lust after re-election, it is just a matter of time before destruction or decay happen.

ruveyn



You are on to something there. With an unlimited government, like the UK and, increasingly, the US, and with majority rule, all you need is a majority, possibly even living in a small section of the country, to use their influence in power to take the money, etc, of the rest of the country.