Is Islamophobia any more justified than anti-Semitism?

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Is Islamophobia any more justified than anti-Semitism?
No, they're both based on false/overblown fears 66%  66%  [ 23 ]
Yes, because Jews have always been peaceful, and Muslims actually DO hate us 34%  34%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 35

donnie_darko
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13 Dec 2011, 3:18 am

Anti-Semites claimed the Jews were greedy, had no morals, and only cared about the betterment of their own kind, even at the expense to others.

Islamophobes claim the Muslims want to take over the world, only care about Muslims, and have no (or bad) morals. Is there really a difference?

I think there's grains of truth in both claims, but you could say that about Buddhism, Christianity, Capitalism, Communism, anything! Do you think early 21st century Islamophobia is any more based on reality than anti-Semitism was? Or is it equally BS.

I mean, I'm sure the hatred of Jews, just like the hatred of Muslims, was triggered by something. Contrary to what the mainstream media says, I don't think people hated Jews for nothing. I'm sure there were incidents that happened to be committed by Jews in the name of Judaism that started it all. Or (wink wink), just like the events of 2001, were falsely blamed on them.



Tequila
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13 Dec 2011, 3:23 am

donnie_darko wrote:
Islamophobes claim the Muslims want to take over the world, only care about Muslims, and have no (or bad) morals.


It's all there in much of their book. Also, how many Jewish dictatorships are there in the world? And how many Islamic ones are there? Go on, I'm here for a while yet.

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I mean, I'm sure the hatred of Jews, just like the hatred of Muslims, was triggered by something. Contrary to what the mainstream media says, I don't think people hated Jews for nothing. I'm sure there were incidents that happened to be committed by Jews in the name of Judaism that started it all. Or (wink wink), just like the events of 2001, were falsely blamed on them.


Or perhaps you're a conspiracy theorist.

I don't hate Muslims; in fact, I don't know anyone but the far-right who does. We're as much worried for secular Muslims (and especially Muslim women) as we are for everyone else. A lot of them came to the UK to get away from the nutters back in their own countries and to live a peaceful life with much more freedom than they could have had back at home.

There's nothing Islamophobic about wanting to oppose Sharia.
There's nothing Islamophobic about disliking a philosophy that opposes everything you stand for as free democracies.
There's nothing Islamophobic about vitriolic criticism of the Quran.

Islamophobia is a bogus insult designed to try to silence legitimate criticism of the more barbaric elements of the Religion of Peace.

..and so on.



donnie_darko
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13 Dec 2011, 3:26 am

I am a conspiracy theorist, and proud of it!

Nah, actually I'm equally skeptical of conspiracy theories, as I am of the mainstream media. I don't really know what to believe. :cry:

And i think some people in Gaza would disagree with no such thing as a Jewish dictatorship. ;) But I'm not an apologist for Islam, it's definitely not one of my favorite religions.



Tequila
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13 Dec 2011, 3:28 am

donnie_darko wrote:
Nah, actually I'm equally skeptical of conspiracy theories, as I am of the mainstream media. I don't really know what to believe. :cry:


Have you thought of looking at the political blogs? I came from fuzzy eyed Lib Dem-style politics toward classical liberalism that way.



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13 Dec 2011, 4:43 am

If you had to live in a country with open borders with a Jewish state or a Muslim state influenced by the Arab spring, which would you choose?


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Asp-Z
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13 Dec 2011, 4:55 am

Most Islamic people are perfectly peaceful, there's no reason to discriminate against all of them because of a few extremists.



Tequila
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13 Dec 2011, 5:10 am

Asp-Z wrote:
Most Islamic people are perfectly peaceful, there's no reason to discriminate against all of them because of a few extremists.


Problem is though is that it's not a small minority. It's a minority but a much larger minority than is commonly thought.



Asp-Z
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13 Dec 2011, 5:11 am

Tequila wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Most Islamic people are perfectly peaceful, there's no reason to discriminate against all of them because of a few extremists.


Problem is though is that it's not a small minority. It's a minority but a much larger minority than is commonly thought.


Still no need to discriminate against all of them though.



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13 Dec 2011, 6:41 am

Interesting question.

If you study the history of the anarchist movement, jews were blowing the s**t out of europe in the 19th & early 20th century.

Channel 4 did a very good comparison of anti-semitism in that period and islamophobia today using modern day muslims to read out transcripts from court proceedings and anarchist literature at the time.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFowZZ2pDGI[/youtube]



techstepgenr8tion
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13 Dec 2011, 8:49 am

I think the trouble is people are people, they'll have more fear of those who they keep hearing news articles of violence and promised violence from. More attuned individuals won't need to generalize that much but you've got two things to go with that 1) not everyone grew up in a time where this was a necessary skill - gets harder as you get older 2) there are a lot of people who perhaps can't have enough trust in their ability to tell the difference.

At the same time though its important to be able to make the distinction that yes - most are peaceful, and yes - some very much are out to 'get' the west. To need to iron the whole the flat in either direction seems like a need to collapse nuance.


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13 Dec 2011, 9:40 am

When was the last time a bunch of crazy Jewish fanatics hijacked a commercial flight and crashed into a building full of disarmed people?

There is nothing in Judaism that makes Jews enemies of society. There is much in Islam that turns ordinary people into suicidal killers. Jews do not subscribe to a religion that demands that they convert the world to become Jewish. Islam has the goal of destroying the dar al Harb --- which is us.

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13 Dec 2011, 10:49 am

I do not think "islamophobes" share anything in common with anti-Semites. Actually a lot of European anti-Semites seem to admire the Islamic ideology.

However there are several "islamophobic" politicians outside of America who are also antisemitic. Even some of them who are not overt fascists have failed to sever all ties with the latter, ignoring what comes out of their mouths (what the "mainstream right" is too craven to say).

Neither have I noticed any similarities between Muslims and Jewish people. I admittedly do not hold much knowledge about either religion so my impression of both groups is derived from the interactions I have had. It is not Jewish people who aim to oppress other groups. I notice that some political correctionists argue that the presence of a few secular Muslims means all immigrants of the same background will acculturate well. I am not convinced by their arguements and I have known some ostensibly modernist Muslims who I later discovered were not so secularist after all.

Not everyone with this "phobia" believes it is impossible to find moderate Muslims. Realizing that at least a significant minority of observant Muslims would establish sharia rule if they so chose and wanting to preserve the borders of the country one inhabits because it is too risky to let in people of the same group, is not xenophobic. There is nothing racist about immigration policies which are more selective. Not everyone may agree with me, but I think Islamic people who are persecuted because of their humanitarian views should be welcomed as citizens. Perhaps they could even convince Muslims with European citizenship to adjust without making them feel "patronized" by native citizens. Otherwise, immigration of muslims to Europe should come to an end. Fear of the Jewish populations is not founded on any proof of anything collectively committed against other groups of people. Collectively speaking, people with Jewish backgrounds are not prone to committing crime. However suspicion of Islam is not bigotry or influenced by conspiracy theories. Thinking that better control over who becomes a citizen is not a symptom of "islamophobia" because delinquency has skyrocketed since immigration into Europe became unmonitored. All the "elite" critics of "islamophobes" wonder why urban areas are no longer safe, just like they finally realize that the uprisings in North Africa will yield results worse than the despotism that reigned there before.



Last edited by petitesouris on 13 Dec 2011, 6:16 pm, edited 12 times in total.

OliveOilMom
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13 Dec 2011, 11:11 am

Most Muslims are not radical extremist fundamentalist Muslims. I have no problem whatsoever with them. However, I can see how some people who don't know much, or anything at all, about Islam might lump them all together. I don't, and those who do need to be educated about Islam. There is a sect of Islam that teaches that they should attack the nonbelievers. Most of Islam does not teach that.

Also, Jews never attacked us. The most extreme and fundementalist sect of Judaism is the Hasidic Jews, and they aren't at all violent. They don't want to convert anybody. They just want to be able to practice their beliefs without interferance.

Radical extremist fundamentalist Muslims did attack us.

Thats why people are afraid of them.

Also, you have to remember that the most notorius Anti-semite of all time, Hitler, killed Jews not only for their religion but also for their genetics. Jews who had converted to other religions were killed just also. Those who are afraid of Muslims aren't afraid of them because of their genetics. If the Muslims were to convert to something else, the people who are afraid of them would stop being afraid. Anti-semites hate because of ethnicity moreso than religion. Being a Jew is a religion and an ethnic group. Being a Muslim is not.


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DC
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13 Dec 2011, 11:31 am

OliveOilMom wrote:

Also, Jews never attacked us. The most extreme and fundementalist sect of Judaism is the Hasidic Jews, and they aren't at all violent. They don't want to convert anybody. They just want to be able to practice their beliefs without interferance.



Did you bother watching the documentary that I posted and have you ever studied history?

Yes, some Jews have at various times been violent and killed members of other religions, yes at various times some Jews have carried out many, many acts of terrorism.

Are you really trying to say that the Irgun has never carried out acts of violence?

Or Haganah?
Or Lehi?



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13 Dec 2011, 11:58 am

It's essential to put things in correct perspective.

In Judaism, there is no religious mandate to conquer the world. Did God tell the Jews to commit genocide? There was a time where they were to possess a land promised to them and basically drive out all who chose not to join them but did not leave. Aside from this, there is no standing mandate in Judaism to commit genocide or enslavement of "non-believers." At most, they are commanded to not tolerate the "infidel" in their midst lest they corrupt the nation.

In Christianity, there is no religious mandate to conquer the world. Spread the gospel? Yes. Spread it via threat of death? No. The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. were all the result of power-hungry leaders of ONE DENOMINATION of Christianity who distorted the teachings of the Bible (to an illiterate population) to perform heinous acts.

However, with Islam, the teachings of the Qur'an are clear. Infidels are to either be killed or enslaved. Thankfully, many Muslims do not choose to follow those teachings, but as the Qur'an is laid out, the mandate remains and is embraced by a very significant portion of those who believe in Islam, and where Sharia law is imposed, there is little to no tolerance for the non-believer.

While it may sound like circular reasoning, the only thing people should be intolerant of is intolerance itself. I don't have to approve of a person choosing to live a gay lifestyle or hold different spiritual beliefs from my own, but I do not have the right to persecute or harm them because they won't conform to my world view.

Islam actively teaches the eradication or enslavement of those who will not convert. That makes it an ideology that should be eradicated from the face of the earth. If left to grow and thrive, it will be a source of violence and bloodshed for as long as it exists.



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13 Dec 2011, 12:03 pm

Criticizing any religion other than Christianity constitutes bigotry.