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Tequila
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29 Feb 2012, 1:34 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Erm, what if some women can't help being 'masculine'?


I'm talking about those that look like they are out for a fight. Aggressive yobs, not just women that are like men.



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29 Feb 2012, 1:37 pm

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Erm, what if some women can't help being 'masculine'?


I'm talking about those that look like they are out for a fight. Aggressive yobs, not just women that are like men.


I don't equate that to being 'masculine'; the word I'd use is 'belligerent'. Belligerent people are annoying regardless of gender. The fact that you used the word 'masculine' to describe belligerent women is telling.


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Tequila
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29 Feb 2012, 1:39 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
I don't equate that to being 'masculine'; the word I'd use is 'belligerent'. Belligerent people are annoying regardless of gender. The fact that you used the word 'masculine' to describe belligerent women is telling.


Yes, a bad choice of words on my part. Generally, with masculine women I more or less just get turned off. But I think it depends on what kind of masculine. Belligerent women often have quite masculine behaviours, so there is kind of an overlap.



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29 Feb 2012, 1:46 pm

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
I don't equate that to being 'masculine'; the word I'd use is 'belligerent'. Belligerent people are annoying regardless of gender. The fact that you used the word 'masculine' to describe belligerent women is telling.


Yes, a bad choice of words on my part. Generally, with masculine women I more or less just get turned off. But I think it depends on what kind of masculine. Belligerent women often have quite masculine behaviours, so there is kind of an overlap.


The most belligerent women I've met are more feminine (and heterosexual) than me. Most of the bull-dykes I've known have been very laid back, polite people...but that's just my experience.

I don't think you're talking about real-life women so much, but straw-women here. The mythological army of man-hating lesbian feminists, who have beards and play rugby and want to eliminate the Y chromosome.


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puddingmouse
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29 Feb 2012, 2:01 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

People who attempt to sell "choice" as feminism seem to refuse to have any meaningful conversation about what "choice" means-
what does it mean to "choose" to be a housewife in a culture where domestic womanhood is constantly-fetishized?
What does it mean to "choose" to be a stripper if there are economic inequalities that affect women and racial minorities disproportionately,
jointly-existing in a climate where sexual objectifying one's self is a lucrative prospect?

Those questions can be asked about pretty much anything- to pretend people live their lives in vacuums makes no sense.


Choice is pretty complicated. I've entered the labour market and acted as the main breadwinner in my home, but that wasn't completely a choice, so much as an economic necessity. If I really got to choose, I'd support myself by being creative. Economic/social necessity complicates choice, whatever it is.

Put frankly, the social and economic inequalites that women face are structural; real progress will not occur until they are changed. If I had to put a label on my feminism, it is for this reason, I'd choose 'radical feminist'. However, saying this means that people get preconceived ideas about me and think I hate men.

I don't understand where people make the leap from 'wanting to change the structure of society' to 'hating men'. :roll:


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ValentineWiggin
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29 Feb 2012, 2:07 pm

Tequila wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Know what I find scary?

FGM.
Sexual slavery.
Female infanticide.
Rape as a weapon of war.


Those are disgusting and repellent practices, but I'm talking about day to day life here, those that we see. Get off that high horse of yours.


That IS day to day life for millions THAT WE SEE,
far more common than the first world individuals you describe.

If there's a high-horse,
it's people who feign ignorance to the horrors that feminist groups fight every day on a global scale while you opine.

I'd laugh at the implication that people outside the first world are not ALIVE in the same sense that you are,
but it's really too disturbing to. 8O


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Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 29 Feb 2012, 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ValentineWiggin
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29 Feb 2012, 2:10 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
I don't understand where people make the leap from 'wanting to change the structure of society' to 'hating men'. :roll:


What's interesting from a rhetorical POV is that it's actually misandrist to do so.

"Women are human beings, entitled with inalienable human rights, and men's peers in every way."
"Herp derp, that's man hate!"

^ The above exchange involves in the latter instance something very disturbing being assumed:
that to be FOR women is to be AGAINST men,
and in so-doing, says something frightening about the speaker's conception of manhood.


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puddingmouse
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29 Feb 2012, 2:15 pm

^

Yeah, the concept that men's interests = patriarchal interests, originates with anti-feminists and certainly not with feminists.


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ValentineWiggin
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29 Feb 2012, 2:21 pm

Well, I mean, it makes sense, in a way..
if you define "masculinity" as dominant, excluded-to-females, de facto rights to certain spheres, such as employment, voting, or speaking or dressing a certain way (the post which clumsily attempted to critique First and Second Wave feminism without knowing even the actual definition of either is a classic example of this, with descriptors of the First Wave as "masculinizing" women) then it's perfectly-logical to see feminist advances as "attacks on men".... manhood there is being defined as, above all else, not-in-any-way-ever-associated-with-women-or-things-associated-with-women.


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Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 29 Feb 2012, 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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29 Feb 2012, 2:22 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
"Women are human beings, entitled with inalienable human rights, and men's peers in every way."
"Herp derp, that's man hate!"


If you want true equality, then you may have it. Just don't then expect to have any other concessions made to you. Don't expect people to step in on your behalf because you are female and thus vulnerable. Don't expect to have extra maternity leave. In fact, don't expect anything. In fact, let's do away with femininity and masculinity altogether. In fact, why don't we just wipe out the human race, then there's nothing more to argue about.

And as for your comments about the appalling nasties of the Third World: are you yourself helping to eradicate these things from the comfort of your own computer screen? No? Then wind your neck in.



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29 Feb 2012, 2:28 pm

Tequila wrote:

If you want true equality, then you may have it. Just don't then expect to have any other concessions made to you.


How very CHIVALROUS of you, Sir, to ALLOW me to be seen as a fellow human being, as a CONCESSION.
You're a gentleman, and a scholar, Sir!
8)
Tequila wrote:
And as for your comments about the appalling nasties of the Third World: are you yourself helping to eradicate these things from the comfort of your own computer screen? No? Then wind your neck in.

I hold such people in the highest of esteems-
I'm certainly not sitting in comfort TRASHING them, unlike yourself...which was my point.

Are your hands blistered yet from moving goal posts? :lol:


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ValentineWiggin
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29 Feb 2012, 2:31 pm

Tequila wrote:
Don't expect to have extra maternity leave. In fact, don't expect anything. In fact, let's do away with femininity and masculinity altogether. In fact, why don't we just wipe out the human race, then there's nothing more to argue about.

This quote is illustrative of what we were discussing before-
the existence of people who consider gender scripts to be SYNONYMOUS WITH THE EXISTENCE OF THE SPECIES,
or at least get so wound up about the notion of allowing people to be individuals that they'd imply such.


One wonders however our quaint Homo Sapiens managed to survive before we were told by the forces that be what we Hafta To Do Cuz We're Male/Female. :lol:


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Tequila
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29 Feb 2012, 2:31 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
How very CHIVALROUS of you, Sir, to ALLOW me to be seen as a fellow human being, as a CONCESSION.
You're a gentleman, and a scholar, Sir!


My point is that if you want all of the rights that women have, expect that men will treat you no differently than other men and will compete on a like-for-like basis. Essentially, there will then be no excuses for women whatsoever for their poor behaviour, no get-out clauses, just like there should be for men. If that's fine by you, all power to you.

Quote:
I'm certainly not sitting in comfort TRASHING them, unlike yourself...which was my point.


Show me where I did this, Miss Wiggin. Show me where I trashed people helping to ease the appalling atrocities carried out in Africa. Please do. I'll buy you a pint of bitter and a packet of pork scratchings. ;)



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29 Feb 2012, 2:39 pm

Tequila wrote:
My point is that if you want all of the rights that women have, expect that men will treat you no differently than other men and will compete on a like-for-like basis.

Are you invoking this as if it's somehow undesirable? Isn't that the very point?
Tequila wrote:
Essentially, there will then be no excuses for women whatsoever for their poor behaviour, no get-out clauses, just like there should be for men. If that's fine by you, all power to you.

Oh, no, we can't have people misbehaving, male or female- would you suggest we at least confine them to separate Dunce corners, though, for propriety's sake?

Tequila wrote:
Quote:
I'm certainly not sitting in comfort TRASHING them, unlike yourself...which was my point.


Show me where I did this, Miss Wiggin.

How about YOU show me where you've ever said something POSITIVE of feminism, and I'll concede the point, gladly. :)
Tequila wrote:
Show me where I trashed people helping to ease the appalling atrocities carried out in Africa.

Oh, I see, so when you talk of feminists, you're not really talking of FEMINISM and all it's works, you're talking about...
wait
who ARE you talking about?


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They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
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puddingmouse
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29 Feb 2012, 7:13 pm

Tequila wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
How very CHIVALROUS of you, Sir, to ALLOW me to be seen as a fellow human being, as a CONCESSION.
You're a gentleman, and a scholar, Sir!


My point is that if you want all of the rights that women have, expect that men will treat you no differently than other men and will compete on a like-for-like basis. Essentially, there will then be no excuses for women whatsoever for their poor behaviour, no get-out clauses, just like there should be for men. If that's fine by you, all power to you.


I'm seeking to change the whole system whereby men treat other men (as well as women) badly.

Human rights and equality don't mean anything unless they're universal.

The 'radicalism' doesn't come from 'hating men' more than the moderates. What makes a radical feminist radical is that they want to make structural changes in society, whereas a moderate wants to reform it. Your talk of concessions and special treatment for women does not apply to someone who wants to change the very assumptions on which society currently operates.

That said, I've tried finding other like-minded feminists...and it's hard for me to find them amongst the 'radical' camp. I agree with some of the central theories of radical feminism, though.


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01 Mar 2012, 9:57 pm

i like where this thread is going.


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