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donnie_darko
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30 Jan 2012, 1:10 am

LKL wrote:
a person who politely disagrees with you in an internet debate is not necessarily angry, even if she is female.

Wrt. promotions: several studies have come out recently showing that women ask for less when they ask for promotions, and that they're less likely to ask in the first place because they're perceived as harpies and treated poorly when they do - even if they deserve the promotion/raise as much as the men who ask for them. Also, men generally receive raises/promotions after they start a family 'because they have a family to support,' (as if working women aren't supporting their families), and women are put on the back-burner, regardless of whether he or she is taking time off to support the kids.


I'm sorry Hyperlexian, I saw anger where it wasn't there.

Yes, the promotion thing is interesting. I also think women in general (on average) are less interested in risking conflict and that could be part of why they are less likely to ask for raises/promotions as well.

I think there's also a more benign side to this as well. Men are generally expected to spend a lot of the money they earn on their woman. I mean which sex is more likely to receive a $200 necklace from their significant other? lol



LKL
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30 Jan 2012, 1:15 am

And which one receives a $1K shop smith? :wink:

edit: that is too obtuse. My mom never received big pieces of jewelry from my dad; the presents they got each other were always functional things that would help either of them to perform their contributions to the family more easily and effectively. In that context, I can only presume that a man who gives his spouse expensive jewelry thinks that 'looking attractive and well-taken-care-of' is part of her function in the family.



Last edited by LKL on 30 Jan 2012, 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

donnie_darko
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30 Jan 2012, 1:16 am

LKL wrote:
And which one receives a $1K shop smith? :wink:


And who receives a $5,000 diamond ring? :D



abacacus
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30 Jan 2012, 1:17 am

But which family traditionally pays for the wedding?


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donnie_darko
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30 Jan 2012, 1:20 am

abacacus wrote:
But which family traditionally pays for the wedding?


The wedding is mostly meant for the woman anyways honestly.



LKL
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30 Jan 2012, 1:39 am

^actually, I think it's meant for the mother of the bride. Based on observation. 8O



Daemonic-Jackal
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31 Jan 2012, 11:43 am

artrat wrote:
Women are looked down upon if they don't wear makeup and fashionable cloths.
Not following this gender role has prevented my from getting a job.


That's mostly looked down upon by other women, more so then men.


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x_amount_of_words
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31 Jan 2012, 1:52 pm

Feminism has become something that it was originally not. Many feminists today have become very hateful towards both men and women. For example, many feminists believe that housewives or stay at home moms are weak or less intelligent. They think that a women is defined by her career and how much power she has. The good thing about free countries is that we have the right to choose. Being a caring wife and loving mother is an honorable thing. I don't think I could handle it myself. But I also respect single women who take care of themselves, and working mothers/wives who can handle all three things. This area of feminism, I do not agree with.

I believe that men and women were created equally. Many people think the Bible is a result of "women hating" but the Bible says that "He created them male and female. He created them in the image of God."

Men were created primarily to be leaders and women to be helpers. The Bible says that Eve was a "suitable helpmate". This does not mean that women are secondary to men. If you look into the Hebrew of Genesis, you will see that Adam considered Eve his equal. They were to live in harmony and to keep each other company. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but it always seemed to me that Adam needed another human being to connect with. God says, "It is not good for man to be alone." This is also true today. I think men and women complement each other in their strengths and weaknesses. Men are not better than women, and women are not better than men. God created women physically weaker, but not less intelligent. I think He made Adam stronger so that he could represent the power of God. I think women show the caring side of God. (I say this because I know that women must have attributes of God because we were also created in His image. The only difference is that women were created indirectly through Adam. The Bible speaks on this but it is hard for me to explain it tactfully. It is also hard for me to discern what it all means and I can't see the big picture.) Of course, we are all unique and not everyone fits into this mold. I personally don't in some ways, but that might be the Aspie in me.

Theologically speaking, the reason men and women can't get along is because of the Fall. After the Fall, God says, "Your desire will be for your husband, but he will rule over you." God did not originally create men to be domineering over women, He meant for them to sacrificially love and lead their wife. But after The Fall, you see more men being passive, like not being the father or husband they should be, or they just control and abuse their wives. Of course, this is not true for all men! Women also have their faults. Sometimes women can be a bit overbearing and controlling as well. But this is all a result of The Fall. We were not meant to "buck heads" with each other, but to fit together in a way that only man and women can.

Similarly, the Gospel of Christ can be represented by marriage. Men should love their wives as Christ loved the Church, and women should follow that lead. Obviously women have proven that they are able to lead, but God wants it this way in marriage so that we can live in peace with each other. He chose men to lead because He created men first. And then woman from the rib of Adam. But if not for Eve's transgression, women would get the respect they deserve. And men as well. Note that Adam took most of the responsibility for The Fall. This speaks a lot into husband leadership. Many religions have put the blame primarily on Eve, but this is not correct. Though they were both held responsible for their personal actions.

That being said, I am not against women taking positions of leadership. I'm not a crazy fundamentalist who thinks women should be slaves in the house. There is just a certain order for the Church and the marriage relationship.

I only use the Bible to refer to my views because before I started reading the Bible, I had no way, other than biologically, to differentiate men and women. I think this has to do with my Asperger's and me not being a stereotypical girl.


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LKL
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31 Jan 2012, 7:27 pm

x_amount_of_words wrote:
Feminism has become something that it was originally not. Many feminists today have become very hateful towards both men and women.

evidence, please?
(as for what the bible says, I couldn't care less)



donnie_darko
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01 Feb 2012, 2:18 am

I've always seen feminism as being about promoting women in the workplace and politics and legal rights. I agree with that kind of feminism, women don't all need to be moms and only moms, I like the idea of a career woman.

I think radical feminism is those people who believe women are inherently oppressed and victimized by men in Western society. Certain cultures such as India actually do seem anti-woman, but then again there are other cultures that are anti-men, such as our own culture in many ways.



TheFerretHadToGo
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01 Feb 2012, 4:48 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Men are also disadvantaged in various other areas, especially when it comes to marriage and divorce. But you don't see us crying about it much.

Sadly enough I do. Maybe not you specifically, but lots of anti-feminists bring up stuff like that as proof that women actually have more and better rights than men.



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01 Feb 2012, 4:59 pm

pandabear wrote:
1 Timothy 2 wrote:
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety


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TheFerretHadToGo
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01 Feb 2012, 5:07 pm

x_amount_of_words wrote:
For example, many feminists believe that housewives or stay at home moms are weak or less intelligent. They think that a women is defined by her career and how much power she has.

I´ve seen some of that too, how uncaring businesswomen with sharp elbows are idealized as role models because they challenge the men on their own turf. And that women who choose to stay home with their children are accused of being weak and traitors to the cause because they set a bad example for other women.
Just so you dont get me wrong, I don´t believe this is representative for feminists in general, rather it´s an exception. But nonetheless it´s disturbing. And hypocritical; if women should have the right to decide their life themselves that should include the right to be a housewife.



OliveOilMom
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01 Feb 2012, 5:43 pm

Here is my take on feminism.

It began because of the way women were limited in choices and options, and because of how women were treated in society. I still remember want ads in the paper with heading for men and women. I wasn't old enough to work then, but I remember seeing them. I remember it being a shock when a teacher got pregnant and then came back to work after she had her baby.

The fact that we have choices and options and equality now is a very good thing. There are two things that I don't like about some forms of feminism though.

1) The fact that many feminists do not see all choices as valid. I chose to stay home and be a housewife. It was a decision that my husband and I made when we had our first baby. I enjoy doing this, and I don't feel that it's invalid or that I am less of a woman than women who work. I certainly believe that this choice isn't for everyone, but neither is working outside the home. If I choose to stay home and take care of the house and kids, then the housework and cooking etc become my responsibility. The same as if whatever job I did outside the home was my responsibility. It's not because I'm a woman that cooking supper or mopping the house is my responsibility, it's because I'm the one who chose to stay home and do these things. The person who stays home has the responsibility for the bulk of the housework. If I worked at a job from home, then my responsibilites would be less. I get really ticked when I am told "But you don't HAVE to be just a housewife anymore! You could be ANYTHING you want!" I guess I could be anything I want except a housewife, huh?

2) The fact that some physical standards for jobs are lowered for women. This doesn't happen everywhere, but some fire departments and police departments lower their physical standards for women. Men may have to be able to do some physical things, but women only have to do them to a lesser extent. All standards should be the same. There are many women who can meet those standards. If a job requires physical ability for either the worker's or the public's safety, then anyone who does that job should be held to the same standards. This does not discriminate against women because we are women, anymore than not allowing a person with extremely poor vision to be a surgeon. Yes, most men have more upper body strength than most men. If a job requires good upper body strength, then more men will be hired to do that job than women. The job shouldn't be toned down so that they can have a nondiscriminitory hiring practice. If they discriminate against women who can meet the same standards as men, then take them to court. Don't change the standards of the job.

Other than those two things, I have no problem with feminism. Sure, there are some radical feminists who hate men and want superiority, or some kind of retribution for the way women have been treated in the past, but by and large, they are in the minority.


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01 Feb 2012, 7:06 pm

I've never met any feminists that had a problem with other women choosing to be housewives.


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abacacus
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01 Feb 2012, 7:12 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
I've never met any feminists that had a problem with other women choosing to be housewives.


I've met a couple who thought it was demeaning for a woman to stay home and cook, even if they happen to want to be a housewife.

It's not the majority, however. Just a slightly unbalanced fringe.


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