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Kraichgauer
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28 Jan 2012, 1:56 am

NeantHumain wrote:
In some sense, the Holy Roman Empire can be thought of as the continuation of the Roman Empire in the West; the Byzantine Empire was of course the continuation of the Roman Empire in the East. In part, Charlemagne was crowned Emperor to get the Byzantine emperor off the Pope's back since the Byzantine emperors still saw all lands of the former Western Roman Empire as still theoretically Roman. Napoleon of course brought an end to the Holy Roman Empire and had himself crowned Emperor of the French. I believe, when the Ottoman sultans sacked Constantinople and thus ended the Byzantine Empire, they took on the title of Emperor of Rum.


Actually, the Holy Roman Empire was just the Frankish kingdom with a new name under Charlemagne. The Franks, who had been a confederation of small Germanic tribes from Germany's lower and middle Rhine region, as well as the southern Netherlands and Flanders in Belgium, had expanded in the west at the expense of other Germanic peoples, and the Roman provincials in northern Gaul (north France), thereby filling the void left by the Romans. Culturally, the Holy Roman Empire had been divided between the increasingly Latinized western or Salian Franks, who eventually became the French and Walloons of Belgium, while the eastern or Ripurarian Franks, whose descendents speak Franconian German dialects, as well as Dutch and Flemish, remained Germanic. It was along these lines that the Holy Roman Empire divided into France, and The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (largely modern Germany) after the death of Charlemagne and his line of emperors came to an end a few generations later.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



GoonSquad
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28 Jan 2012, 2:09 am

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
I would say ( as someone with a History degree, and history was/is my obsessive aspergian quality) that the collapse of the roman empire was largely a result of a variety of factors such as: institutional weakness of govt..by 300's-500s you had very little top stability with emperors coming and going in a matter of years as opposed to decades in previous centuries. You had the non-expansion of the empire ( when the early roman state was built on unconscience imperialism...see the 3 carthigian wars, the wars to take macedonia, and than mithradiatic wars. Wars often meant profit for legions, and emperors alike. You had the devaluation of the roman currency which caused runaway inflation. You than had the movements of the Germanic tribes along the border regions which changed the cultural, ethnic, and military strength of the roman state. I think our " decline" is more similar to the British than the Romans.


W O R D !

The comparison to Britain is MUCH more apt overall...

However, I think there are some interesting parallels between the US today and the late republic.


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus


NeantHumain
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29 Jan 2012, 1:52 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Actually, the Holy Roman Empire was just the Frankish kingdom with a new name under Charlemagne. The Franks, who had been a confederation of small Germanic tribes from Germany's lower and middle Rhine region, as well as the southern Netherlands and Flanders in Belgium, had expanded in the west at the expense of other Germanic peoples, and the Roman provincials in northern Gaul (north France), thereby filling the void left by the Romans. Culturally, the Holy Roman Empire had been divided between the increasingly Latinized western or Salian Franks, who eventually became the French and Walloons of Belgium, while the eastern or Ripurarian Franks, whose descendents speak Franconian German dialects, as well as Dutch and Flemish, remained Germanic. It was along these lines that the Holy Roman Empire divided into France, and The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (largely modern Germany) after the death of Charlemagne and his line of emperors came to an end a few generations later.

Yes, the Pope elevated the ruler of the Franks to Emperor of the Romans, but it is important to note the political context the Pope was acting in. The Byzantine emperors considered all the lands formerly under Roman rule, especially if now under "barbarian" rule, in some sense rightfully theirs. In fact, the Byzantine made reconquests into Italy and North Africa. Crowning Charlemagne Emperor of the Romans "restored" the office of Western Roman emperor. Besides the Franks under Charlemagne, there were Lombards to the north of Rome.



Kraichgauer
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29 Jan 2012, 2:07 am

NeantHumain wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Actually, the Holy Roman Empire was just the Frankish kingdom with a new name under Charlemagne. The Franks, who had been a confederation of small Germanic tribes from Germany's lower and middle Rhine region, as well as the southern Netherlands and Flanders in Belgium, had expanded in the west at the expense of other Germanic peoples, and the Roman provincials in northern Gaul (north France), thereby filling the void left by the Romans. Culturally, the Holy Roman Empire had been divided between the increasingly Latinized western or Salian Franks, who eventually became the French and Walloons of Belgium, while the eastern or Ripurarian Franks, whose descendents speak Franconian German dialects, as well as Dutch and Flemish, remained Germanic. It was along these lines that the Holy Roman Empire divided into France, and The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (largely modern Germany) after the death of Charlemagne and his line of emperors came to an end a few generations later.

Yes, the Pope elevated the ruler of the Franks to Emperor of the Romans, but it is important to note the political context the Pope was acting in. The Byzantine emperors considered all the lands formerly under Roman rule, especially if now under "barbarian" rule, in some sense rightfully theirs. In fact, the Byzantine made reconquests into Italy and North Africa. Crowning Charlemagne Emperor of the Romans "restored" the office of Western Roman emperor. Besides the Franks under Charlemagne, there were Lombards to the north of Rome.


Absolutely. The Catholic Church had wanted out from under the thumb of the Byzantines, especially since the Roman Church had considered the Eastern Orthodox Communion of Byzantium to have been heretics. With the Franks, they had practitioners of Catholicism, who were willing to have a relationship more akin to a partnership as opposed to the unequal situation where the Byzantine Emperor sought to issue commands to Rome. Also, the Franks were much more reliable muscle than the Byzantines ever were for the Popes.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 3:28 am

ruveyn wrote:

i thought the soap thing was proven to be an urban legend lol


No. It was true. Body fat was rendered into soap, and hair from dead Jews were used to make heavy duty winter socks for the Wehrmacht. Gold was extracted from the teeth and melted into ingots to be store in Swiss banks until after the war.

The Nazis were a thrifty lot. Waste not, want not.

ruveyn[/quote]

Weird. I've been reading about it and I guess they did do it, on a small scale.

Do you think the thing about Saddam's human shredder might be true as well?



Kraichgauer
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29 Jan 2012, 5:42 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

i thought the soap thing was proven to be an urban legend lol


No. It was true. Body fat was rendered into soap, and hair from dead Jews were used to make heavy duty winter socks for the Wehrmacht. Gold was extracted from the teeth and melted into ingots to be store in Swiss banks until after the war.

The Nazis were a thrifty lot. Waste not, want not.

ruveyn


Weird. I've been reading about it and I guess they did do it, on a small scale.

Do you think the thing about Saddam's human shredder might be true as well?[/quote]

Human shredder? Now, that's a new one on me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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30 Jan 2012, 10:48 am

If the Romans had solved the problem of succession and political stability (they didn't) we all might be speaking a version of Latin today.

Read the alternate history novel -Procurator- by Kirk Mitchell.

ruveyn