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How would you describe your body build?
Tall and broad 20%  20%  [ 41 ]
Tall and narrow 25%  25%  [ 53 ]
Medium 21%  21%  [ 44 ]
Short and broad 19%  19%  [ 40 ]
Short and narrow 12%  12%  [ 26 ]
Other 3%  3%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 210

DemocraticSocialistHun
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03 Jun 2012, 6:48 am

aghogday wrote:
...And it is also the same problem in attempting to suggest that the type of creativity possessed by south asians and subsarahan africans who do not possess the same advantages of collective intelligence, are not capable of the same levels of innovation and/or creativity, because they may have different archaic ancestory.


South Asia and Sub-Sahara Africa (and the Middle East by the way) are overwhelmingly neurotypical. They have collective intelligence, but few if any members are autistic and possess substantial *individual* intelligence. At least south Asia tolerates neurodiversity to some extent. In the other two regions the intolerance is genecidal.

aghogday wrote:
One is not going to find as many cultural inventions, where there is not the same level of collective recorded intelligence


True. The neurodivergent do scientific inventions, not cultural ones. Too many neurodivergents is perhaps as bad as too few.

aghogday wrote:
educational opportunities, and economic conditions for basic subsistence, nor are they going to find the same IQ from tests generated from other cultures with those advantages, even among ethnic populations that are economically disadvantaged, within developed countries, through a lower potential for financial inheritance and advantage.


Also to be factored in is that "successful" cultures have a more substantial proportion of neurodivergents. The end result is that the disadvantaged populations have more admixture. This will affect IQ scores as well.

aghogday wrote:
However, modern humans across the globe adapt at similar levels of excellence when provided similar levels of advantage. We don't have a half Subsarahan President in the US, whose father graduated from Harvard as a full blooded Subsarahan African, because of a disadvantage in Subsarahan genetics; natural eugenics play a larger role in Subsarahan African countries where individuals face a much harsher environment for survival. One cannot discount the intelligence required for day to day innovation to survive when resources are scarce. It may not present groundbreaking inventions, but it results in the only result that counts in the long run, survival.


Most likely, Sub-Sarahan Africans are better at dealing with situations where advanced planning is impossible. In Sub-Sarahan Africa the rains come or it doesn't at random. If it wasn't for foreign medical aid the population would be lower and resources not so scare. If anything, life in Africa used to be quite easy in comparison ice-cold Europe.

Also, we have a half Subsarahan President when the system is essentially broken beyond repair. The more dysfunctional the system, the better Afro-Americans are doing. We are now out of balance in our neurotypicality vs neurodivergence mix. The policies of the powers-that-be is to make the situation worse.

aghogday wrote:
There are people in environments where bodies are not adapted well, per inherent propensity toward pigmentation, levels of subcutaneous fat, a nose adapted for dry weather or humidity, a barrel chested individual adapted to lower levels of oxygen in higher altitude regions of the world, and many other inherent differences.


Diabetes is the result of living in a year-round summer food supply-wise if you frugally store all your caloric intake.

aghogday wrote:
...Collective intelligence is not measured as hardwired.


But the ability to tap into it and spread it further in neurotypicals is.

aghogday wrote:
There is evidence that some diagnosed autistic individuals develop higher level of intelligence in non-verbal intelligence to compensate for weaknesses in other areas of intelligence...


More likely neurodivergents use innate ability to gain non-verbal intelligence to compensate, if they can.

aghogday wrote:
No doubt discrimination is alive and well; human beings discriminate based on physical characteristics on an instinctive level, per sexual preference and competition, as well as the rest of the animal kingdom. Sub-cultural norms enhances the issue of discrimination per every issue imaginable. But, it's not politically correct to discriminate where laws apply per sexual orientation, race, disability, national origin, or religion. People certainly don't always follow what is politically correct, though.


I am concerned more about organizational discrimination and parenting rather than individual discrimination.

aghogday wrote:
Practical creativity is required at the highest of levels for human beings not reliant on a human hive for survival.


Neurodivergents are hard-wired for this.

aghogday wrote:
It is the type of creativity one would find among our neanderthal ancestors or individuals in Subsarahan cultures that have very few resources for survival.


What matters is group size. Neanderthals would have it.

aghogday wrote:
I do see where RDOS mentions in his latest blog on his website that he finds a small correlation of .12 in the neurodiversity traits he measures in his quiz and self reports from the 23andme estimation of archaic DNA. The 23andme is only a guestimate of archaic DNA, per reported ancestory, and results provided by samples of actual geographic testing, so it's not a very reliable indicator of actual archaic DNA per actual individual. If ancestory was not reported correctly, which certainly is possible, even unwittingly, with the potential for infidelity in any ancestoral line, the results are not very meaningful in trying to make any correlation of significance. I think, in part he acknowledges this.


23andme only notices recent Neanderthal contributions to the genome. Although the overall correlation is small, it isn't even.

aghogday wrote:
The politically powerful do make decisions, that are not in favor of minority interests in the population. There are more advantages than ever for disabled and disadvantaged individuals in developed countries at present, but that is certainly subject to change at any moment with a dramatic change in environmental circumstances manmade, natural catastrophe, or in economic turmoil.


Government policy is designed to appear to be one thing while achieving the opposite. Neurodivergents are equal to neurotypicals in a way that makes them less equal because they don't meet the neurotypical gold standard. The economic turmoil is being deliberately created. The powers-that-be like to shock people with electricity and economic and financial state (includes corporate in my book) terrorism.

aghogday wrote:
We are all subject to and dwarfed by the influence of a hive regardless of neurotype, disability, disadvantage, or advantage, with the potential of a bear swatting at it at any moment. I never realized how a much a part I was of a hive, until going through two hurricanes, one a week long inconvenience without electricity, that made me understand the value of airconditioning and ice, and how dependent I was on TV for entertainment, and another much more serious hurricane that made it impossible to buy gas or groceries for an extended period of time, as well as damaging one bridge that made it impossible for thousands of people to get a route to their place of work.


Disasters are dealt with in a reactionary way.

aghogday wrote:
Per your example of getting 3000 people from the population with inventions as opposed to 3000 people without inventions with individuals actually tested for archaic DNA, unlike what the 23andme guestimate does; too many factors come in to play as to whether or not an individual produces an invention in a lifetime, to relate it specifically to inherent ability/ genetics. There are no determined invention genes at this point in time; it could be a result of genetics, adversity, adaptation, or circumstance, as well as many other factors. There is no diagnosis for an inventor, only results per inventions. :)


aghogday wrote:
I can't dismiss the potential that Neanderthals had some autistic like traits; after all those traits are measured as existing out into 30 percent of the population today, and similar traits exist in mice and monkeys, but it's not likely that serious rare anomalies in diagnosed autism like regressive autism existed as conditions that survived into reproductive age, without the type of support and accommodations provided in modern society. And it's not likely that many human beings that live today with or without a disorder, could have survived in a Neanderthal environment, toe to toe, among Neanderthals or Cro-Magnons. Particularly among those that have become dependent on the "hive" for survival, which is certainly not limited to individuals with regressive autism.


Even 1 in 166 is anything but rare. Autistic kids that have been found lost in the woods after being lost for days. They apparently got along much better than adults in "reality" tv shows. I'm not buying it. In the wild it is the neurotypicals that would be at a disadvantage unless they form a group in a savannah or meadow. Their senses are too dull for one thing.

aghogday wrote:
The fact that high levels of diagnosed autism are found in the children of Sub-Saharan indigenous Somalians, relocated and diagnosed in societies that have the ability to make the diagnosis, is conclusive enough evidence that the disorder of autism exists among individuals of Sub-Saharan African origin, measured and noted in general, for having low levels of archaic neanderthal DNA. Since mice and monkeys have not bred with neanderthals that should not be a surprise.


Most likely just abuse cases.

aghogday wrote:
Autistic individuals cannot lay sole claim to neanderthal ancestoral heritage, that's been proven without a shadow of a doubt, as genetic samples of DNA have been provided worldwide and it has been suggested that close to 6 billion members of the human species have a significant amount of archaic Neanderthal DNA.


The behavioral differences between most Caucasians and Asians vs Sub-Sahara Africans is relatively minor, if differences exist at all.


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aghogday
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03 Jun 2012, 6:59 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
aghogday wrote:
...And it is also the same problem in attempting to suggest that the type of creativity possessed by south asians and subsarahan africans who do not possess the same advantages of collective intelligence, are not capable of the same levels of innovation and/or creativity, because they may have different archaic ancestory.


South Asia and Sub-Sahara Africa (and the Middle East by the way) are overwhelmingly neurotypical. They have collective intelligence, but few if any members are autistic and possess substantial *individual* intelligence. At least south Asia tolerates neurodiversity to some extent. In the other two regions the intolerance is genecidal.

aghogday wrote:
One is not going to find as many cultural inventions, where there is not the same level of collective recorded intelligence


True. The neurodivergent do scientific inventions, not cultural ones. Too many neurodivergents is perhaps as bad as too few.

aghogday wrote:
educational opportunities, and economic conditions for basic subsistence, nor are they going to find the same IQ from tests generated from other cultures with those advantages, even among ethnic populations that are economically disadvantaged, within developed countries, through a lower potential for financial inheritance and advantage.


Also to be factored in is that "successful" cultures have a more substantial proportion of neurodivergents. The end result is that the disadvantaged populations have more admixture. This will affect IQ scores as well.

aghogday wrote:
However, modern humans across the globe adapt at similar levels of excellence when provided similar levels of advantage. We don't have a half Subsarahan President in the US, whose father graduated from Harvard as a full blooded Subsarahan African, because of a disadvantage in Subsarahan genetics; natural eugenics play a larger role in Subsarahan African countries where individuals face a much harsher environment for survival. One cannot discount the intelligence required for day to day innovation to survive when resources are scarce. It may not present groundbreaking inventions, but it results in the only result that counts in the long run, survival.


Most likely, Sub-Sarahan Africans are better at dealing with situations where advanced planning is impossible. In Sub-Sarahan Africa the rains come or it doesn't at random. If it wasn't for foreign medical aid the population would be lower and resources not so scare. If anything, life in Africa used to be quite easy in comparison ice-cold Europe.

Also, we have a half Subsarahan President when the system is essentially broken beyond repair. The more dysfunctional the system, the better Afro-Americans are doing. We are now out of balance in our neurotypicality vs neurodivergence mix. The policies of the powers-that-be is to make the situation worse.

aghogday wrote:
There are people in environments where bodies are not adapted well, per inherent propensity toward pigmentation, levels of subcutaneous fat, a nose adapted for dry weather or humidity, a barrel chested individual adapted to lower levels of oxygen in higher altitude regions of the world, and many other inherent differences.


Diabetes is the result of living in a year-round summer food supply-wise if you frugally store all your caloric intake.

aghogday wrote:
...Collective intelligence is not measured as hardwired.


But the ability to tap into it and spread it further in neurotypicals is.

aghogday wrote:
There is evidence that some diagnosed autistic individuals develop higher level of intelligence in non-verbal intelligence to compensate for weaknesses in other areas of intelligence...


More likely neurodivergents use innate ability to gain non-verbal intelligence to compensate, if they can.

aghogday wrote:
No doubt discrimination is alive and well; human beings discriminate based on physical characteristics on an instinctive level, per sexual preference and competition, as well as the rest of the animal kingdom. Sub-cultural norms enhances the issue of discrimination per every issue imaginable. But, it's not politically correct to discriminate where laws apply per sexual orientation, race, disability, national origin, or religion. People certainly don't always follow what is politically correct, though.


I am concerned more about organizational discrimination and parenting rather than individual discrimination.

aghogday wrote:
Practical creativity is required at the highest of levels for human beings not reliant on a human hive for survival.


Neurodivergents are hard-wired for this.

aghogday wrote:
It is the type of creativity one would find among our neanderthal ancestors or individuals in Subsarahan cultures that have very few resources for survival.


What matters is group size. Neanderthals would have it.

aghogday wrote:
I do see where RDOS mentions in his latest blog on his website that he finds a small correlation of .12 in the neurodiversity traits he measures in his quiz and self reports from the 23andme estimation of archaic DNA. The 23andme is only a guestimate of archaic DNA, per reported ancestory, and results provided by samples of actual geographic testing, so it's not a very reliable indicator of actual archaic DNA per actual individual. If ancestory was not reported correctly, which certainly is possible, even unwittingly, with the potential for infidelity in any ancestoral line, the results are not very meaningful in trying to make any correlation of significance. I think, in part he acknowledges this.


23andme only notices recent Neanderthal contributions to the genome. Although the overall correlation is small, it isn't even.

aghogday wrote:
The politically powerful do make decisions, that are not in favor of minority interests in the population. There are more advantages than ever for disabled and disadvantaged individuals in developed countries at present, but that is certainly subject to change at any moment with a dramatic change in environmental circumstances manmade, natural catastrophe, or in economic turmoil.


Government policy is designed to appear to be one thing while achieving the opposite. Neurodivergents are equal to neurotypicals in a way that makes them less equal because they don't meet the neurotypical gold standard. The economic turmoil is being deliberately created. The powers-that-be like to shock people with electricity and economic and financial state (includes corporate in my book) terrorism.

aghogday wrote:
We are all subject to and dwarfed by the influence of a hive regardless of neurotype, disability, disadvantage, or advantage, with the potential of a bear swatting at it at any moment. I never realized how a much a part I was of a hive, until going through two hurricanes, one a week long inconvenience without electricity, that made me understand the value of airconditioning and ice, and how dependent I was on TV for entertainment, and another much more serious hurricane that made it impossible to buy gas or groceries for an extended period of time, as well as damaging one bridge that made it impossible for thousands of people to get a route to their place of work.


Disasters are dealt with in a reactionary way.

aghogday wrote:
Per your example of getting 3000 people from the population with inventions as opposed to 3000 people without inventions with individuals actually tested for archaic DNA, unlike what the 23andme guestimate does; too many factors come in to play as to whether or not an individual produces an invention in a lifetime, to relate it specifically to inherent ability/ genetics. There are no determined invention genes at this point in time; it could be a result of genetics, adversity, adaptation, or circumstance, as well as many other factors. There is no diagnosis for an inventor, only results per inventions. :)


aghogday wrote:
I can't dismiss the potential that Neanderthals had some autistic like traits; after all those traits are measured as existing out into 30 percent of the population today, and similar traits exist in mice and monkeys, but it's not likely that serious rare anomalies in diagnosed autism like regressive autism existed as conditions that survived into reproductive age, without the type of support and accommodations provided in modern society. And it's not likely that many human beings that live today with or without a disorder, could have survived in a Neanderthal environment, toe to toe, among Neanderthals or Cro-Magnons. Particularly among those that have become dependent on the "hive" for survival, which is certainly not limited to individuals with regressive autism.


Even 1 in 166 is anything but rare. Autistic kids that have been found lost in the woods after being lost for days. They apparently got along much better than adults in "reality" tv shows. I'm not buying it. In the wild it is the neurotypicals that would be at a disadvantage unless they form a group in a savannah or meadow. Their senses are too dull for one thing.

aghogday wrote:
The fact that high levels of diagnosed autism are found in the children of Sub-Saharan indigenous Somalians, relocated and diagnosed in societies that have the ability to make the diagnosis, is conclusive enough evidence that the disorder of autism exists among individuals of Sub-Saharan African origin, measured and noted in general, for having low levels of archaic neanderthal DNA. Since mice and monkeys have not bred with neanderthals that should not be a surprise.


Most likely just abuse cases.

aghogday wrote:
Autistic individuals cannot lay sole claim to neanderthal ancestoral heritage, that's been proven without a shadow of a doubt, as genetic samples of DNA have been provided worldwide and it has been suggested that close to 6 billion members of the human species have a significant amount of archaic Neanderthal DNA.


The behavioral differences between most Caucasians and Asians vs Sub-Sahara Africans is relatively minor, if differences exist at all.


There is not reliable diagnostic procedures, substantial awareness, or significant available statistical data, to understand what the prevalence of autistic like traits are in South Asia, the Middle East or Africa. RDOS, does not have significant numbers from natives of those countries, to even determine in his quiz, what subjective self reports might indicate of what he measures as neurodiversity. He bases it on self-reports of ancestry, in the countries that his internet limited quiz reach; those self-reports are subjective for many people, and not necessarily accurate.

If 30% percent Autistic traits exist in the US and Sweden, it's not reasonable that these same traits would not exist at least at significant levels in every area of the world, considering autistic like traits are seen in the animal kingdom.

The folks in the middle east, south Asia, and Africa are not killing off their systemizers with autistic like traits; the engineers, tech folks, mechanics, etc. However in highly populated areas with low resources in Africa, and South Asia, infanticide is used to control population for survival purposes, including severely disabled children, that might have conditions like regressive autism, but there is no way for sure to understand what those statistics might be, because of lack of diagnostic expertise in those countries.

There is no evidence that children of somalian natives living in Sweden, with high rates of autism, are being abused. Abuse alone, has not been evidenced to cause the neurodevelopmental disorder of Autism. And, the medical profession in Sweden is as capable as any other geographical area in the world to make proper diagnoses of Autism.

Source please for diagnosed autistic kids lost in the woods. There are likely some Navy Seals with an autistic trait or two, but kids with serious disabilities do not do well when lost in the woods. There are not very many human beings, disabled or not, that can survive in the wild without cultural assistance, including clothing and shelter.

The 1 in 88 individuals actually diagnosed with autism has little to do with what RDOS categorizes as neurotypical vs. aspie like traits (neurodivergent). These are 8 year olds in classes for the developmentally disabled of which about a third are measured with intellectual deficits and another third are measured as having border line intellectual deficits. He is addressing a much larger part of the population, in what he measures as neurodivergent traits; the approximately 30% that function quite well.


His quiz doesn't have a category for a person to register whom has classic autism. Culture and neuroplasticity do impact these autistic like traits in the general population, and if anything modern culture is becoming more neurodivergent per work-related systemizing requirements necessary to survive, as opposed to the past.

Many people in US culture are busy systemizing throughout the course of the day whether they are connected to a computer, or a handheld device. The modern hive is very much part of neurodivergent inventions, in part, produced by systemizers with autistic like traits. This influences the process of neuroplasticity and the way the general population becomes neurologically wired through the course of a lifetime.

Individuals in developing countries likely would not show as many neurodiverse traits, that RDOS labels as such, associated with lack of face to face interaction, etc., if they actually could take his quiz, in part, because they are not interfacing with a machine for hours every day, for years.

Instead, they commonly interact with human beings, in face-to-face communication. Modern Cultures, through technological innovation, are becoming more autistic like in nature, rather than less autistic like in nature.

We can thank the systemizers such as Bill Gates, and Zuckerberg, in part, for this change in culture, for changing the way some of the population's brains are wired, inherently autistic or not, through the avenue of technological innovations resulting in changes of how one perceives and interacts with the world through changes that occur in the brain as a result of the process of neuroplasticity.

While not as dramatic as non-verbal autistics, in Dawson's research, similar improvements in non-autistic adults in measures of non-verbal intelligence through Raven Matrices tests were measured in those non-autistic adults above and beyond their scores on full measures of intelligence, through standard measures of IQ testing.

These improvements in non-verbal abstract reasoning, in part, as a result of influence of culture, through young adulthood, is evidenced in Dawson's research as a cultural wide phenomenon, for both autistic and non-autistic individuals.

It's interesting because it shows non-autistic individuals adapting to cultural influence, through the process of neuroplasticity similarly as non-verbal autistic adults are adapting, through these different measures of intelligence. This is already a well-addressed phenomenon, per the Flynn effect. Dawson mentioned the adaptation for non-autistics, but did not relate it specifically to the Flynn effect.

While it's not currently associated with any actual inherent disorder in the DSM, it's common sense that individuals whom have less access to interaction with electronic devices, whether they live in the US, Africa, Afghanistan, or Pakistan are going to be neurologically wired more in the direction of face to face social interaction, through the process of neuroplasticity, than their electronic device advantaged counterparts, who spend a great deal of their day interfaced with a machine, for an approximated experience of non-face to face social interaction, which for some people consists of interaction with a video game or pornography, in their leisure hours.

In what way do African Americans do better in our society when there is dysfunction? That certainly wasn't evident in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. Although, I tend to think the response would have been much different, if a group of individualsm African American or not, with higher socio-economic influence were impacted by the dysfunction.

People that are accustomed to dealing with adversity, tend to deal with it better than those that don't, if that is what you are referring to. A greater percentage of African Americans are economically disadvantaged than other demographics, so technically there is the potential for more adversity, per that factor.

Black African American males have the highest levels of reported self-esteem among any reported demographic in the US; a good sign of mental health for those individuals, as well as a sign of an ability to adapt to one's environment, regardless of challenge.

No doubt that Obama was highly motivated as an individual, in part, through adversity in his life, as self reported, to achieve the most powerful position in the world, from a quick jump from academia, to Senator, to President, without family background of power and influence. He was the only individual that had the inherent qualities to surpass all other democrat nominees; per the discrimination that still exists in the country, the color of his skin was no advantage in obtaining the nomination, except for the African-American demographic support, in the general election.

Also no doubt Obama has a lot of self-esteem, it comes through loud and clear, a requirement for success in politics and a definite advantage, in life, in general. And again, a cultural strength measured among the demographic of African American Males.

Significant behavioral differences exist, well beyond any diagnosed disorder, and is dependent on genetic and environmental influence. There is no majority of people anywhere evidenced as not having signficant behavioral differences, among individuals in any group, not even in a group of two identical twins, in the same household. Proof of how malleable the human brain is to what may appear as the smallest of environmental differences.

The 150 questions in the Aspie Quiz address select behaviors in the population, but only touches on the full expanse of human behavioral expression. And beyond this the neurodiverse construct is ideology, and not reflective of actual identified specific genetic differences, or inherent neurological differences identified among human beings, through testing.

What is measured in the Aspie Quiz is dependent, in part, on one's environment and circumstances changing across time as one adapts to those factors. If an extremely social child eventually becomes involved in a high tech field, away from face to face social interaction, for years, they are not going to score the same as that child would had they gone into a field that requires constant social interaction, for years. Humans continuously adapt; what the Aspie Quiz measures is a constant moving target, based on those continuous adaptations.

It would be interesting to test some of these youth that are actually identified as the diagnosed 1 in 88, to see how they might score, compared to the online population that the aspie quiz reaches. At this point there is no way to tell how individuals with Classic Autism disorder might score as a group, because the Aspie quiz does not attempt to identify and collect data per those that have classic autism disorder.

That makes it difficult to make any valid comparisons between actual autism disorder and any potential neanderthal connection through the use of the Aspie Quiz results. But that doesn't appear to have been his intention, even though the theory is called the Neanderthal Theory of Autism.

Neurodiversity per a significant number of those questions are associated to the common behavioral traits of introversion. Those traits of sitters vs wanderers are studied as existing at similar levels in human beings and the rest of the animal kingdom, likely Neanderthals as well, but we are never going to know for sure. That too, is only a small part of the complexity of what is human behavior, and what might separate two autistic twins from each other per behavioral differences.

It would also be interesting, to test youth and adult twins both diagnosed with autism, with the aspie quiz. An interesting measure in how much environment impacts these traits. A twin raised in the US diagnosed with autism compared to another twin separated diagnosed with Autism, raised in Subsarahan Africa would be interesting as well.

This potential circumstance may already exist among isolated cases of Somalian twins diagnosed with autism separated from each other through migration.

I suspect the overall environment in Sweden and the US, as compared to the overall environment in the US, may impact the development of diagnosed autism in Somalians as well as genetic propensity mixed throughout populations. Abuse could play a part as well in severity of symptoms, but there isn't any significant evidence of it, identified in Sweden or the US.



DemocraticSocialistHun
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04 Jun 2012, 7:52 am

aghogday wrote:
Autistic individuals cannot lay sole claim to neanderthal ancestoral heritage, that's been proven without a shadow of a doubt, as genetic samples of DNA have been provided worldwide and it has been suggested that close to 6 billion members of the human species have a significant amount of archaic Neanderthal DNA.

The behavioral differences between most Caucasians and Asians vs Sub-Sahara Africans is relatively minor, if differences exist at all.

There is not reliable diagnostic procedures, substantial awareness, or significant available statistical data, to understand what the prevalence of autistic like traits are in South Asia, the Middle East or Africa. RDOS, does not have significant numbers from natives of those countries, to even determine in his quiz, what subjective self reports might indicate of what he measures as neurodiversity. He bases it on self-reports of ancestry, in the countries that his internet limited quiz reach; those self-reports are subjective for many people, and not necessarily accurate.

If 30% percent Autistic traits exist in the US and Sweden, it's not reasonable that these same traits would not exist at least at significant levels in every area of the world, considering autistic like traits are seen in the animal kingdom.

The folks in the middle east, south Asia, and Africa are not killing off their systemizers with autistic like traits; the engineers, tech folks, mechanics, etc. However in highly populated areas with low resources in Africa, and South Asia, infanticide is used to control population for survival purposes, including severely disabled children, that might have conditions like regressive autism, but there is no way for sure to understand what those statistics might be, because of lack of diagnostic expertise in those countries.

There is no evidence that children of somalian natives living in Sweden, with high rates of autism, are being abused. Abuse alone, has not been evidenced to cause the neurodevelopmental disorder of Autism. And, the medical profession in Sweden is as capable as any other geographical area in the world to make proper diagnoses of Autism.

Source please for diagnosed autistic kids lost in the woods. There are likely some Navy Seals with an autistic trait or two, but kids with serious disabilities do not do well when lost in the woods. There are not very many human beings, disabled or not, that can survive in the wild without cultural assistance, including clothing and shelter.

The 1 in 88 individuals actually diagnosed with autism has little to do with what RDOS categorizes as neurotypical vs. aspie like traits (neurodivergent). These are 8 year olds in classes for the developmentally disabled of which about a third are measured with intellectual deficits and another third are measured as having border line intellectual deficits. He is addressing a much larger part of the population, in what he measures as neurodivergent traits; the approximately 30% that function quite well.


His quiz doesn't have a category for a person to register whom has classic autism. Culture and neuroplasticity do impact these autistic like traits in the general population, and if anything modern culture is becoming more neurodivergent per work-related systemizing requirements necessary to survive, as opposed to the past.

Many people in US culture are busy systemizing throughout the course of the day whether they are connected to a computer, or a handheld device. The modern hive is very much part of neurodivergent inventions, in part, produced by systemizers with autistic like traits. This influences the process of neuroplasticity and the way the general population becomes neurologically wired through the course of a lifetime.

Individuals in developing countries likely would not show as many neurodiverse traits, that RDOS labels as such, associated with lack of face to face interaction, etc., if they actually could take his quiz, in part, because they are not interfacing with a machine for hours every day, for years.

Instead, they commonly interact with human beings, in face-to-face communication. Modern Cultures, through technological innovation, are becoming more autistic like in nature, rather than less autistic like in nature.

We can thank the systemizers such as Bill Gates, and Zuckerberg, in part, for this change in culture, for changing the way some of the population's brains are wired, inherently autistic or not, through the avenue of technological innovations resulting in changes of how one perceives and interacts with the world through changes that occur in the brain as a result of the process of neuroplasticity.

While not as dramatic as non-verbal autistics, in Dawson's research, similar improvements in non-autistic adults in measures of non-verbal intelligence through Raven Matrices tests were measured in those non-autistic adults above and beyond their scores on full measures of intelligence, through standard measures of IQ testing.

These improvements in non-verbal abstract reasoning, in part, as a result of influence of culture, through young adulthood, is evidenced in Dawson's research as a cultural wide phenomenon, for both autistic and non-autistic individuals.

It's interesting because it shows non-autistic individuals adapting to cultural influence, through the process of neuroplasticity similarly as non-verbal autistic adults are adapting, through these different measures of intelligence. This is already a well-addressed phenomenon, per the Flynn effect. Dawson mentioned the adaptation for non-autistics, but did not relate it specifically to the Flynn effect.

While it's not currently associated with any actual inherent disorder in the DSM, it's common sense that individuals whom have less access to interaction with electronic devices, whether they live in the US, Africa, Afghanistan, or Pakistan are going to be neurologically wired more in the direction of face to face social interaction, through the process of neuroplasticity, than their electronic device advantaged counterparts, who spend a great deal of their day interfaced with a machine, for an approximated experience of non-face to face social interaction, which for some people consists of interaction with a video game or pornography, in their leisure hours.

In what way do African Americans do better in our society when there is dysfunction? That certainly wasn't evident in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. Although, I tend to think the response would have been much different, if a group of individualsm African American or not, with higher socio-economic influence were impacted by the dysfunction.

People that are accustomed to dealing with adversity, tend to deal with it better than those that don't, if that is what you are referring to. A greater percentage of African Americans are economically disadvantaged than other demographics, so technically there is the potential for more adversity, per that factor.

Black African American males have the highest levels of reported self-esteem among any reported demographic in the US; a good sign of mental health for those individuals, as well as a sign of an ability to adapt to one's environment, regardless of challenge.

No doubt that Obama was highly motivated as an individual, in part, through adversity in his life, as self reported, to achieve the most powerful position in the world, from a quick jump from academia, to Senator, to President, without family background of power and influence. He was the only individual that had the inherent qualities to surpass all other democrat nominees; per the discrimination that still exists in the country, the color of his skin was no advantage in obtaining the nomination, except for the African-American demographic support, in the general election.

Also no doubt Obama has a lot of self-esteem, it comes through loud and clear, a requirement for success in politics and a definite advantage, in life, in general. And again, a cultural strength measured among the demographic of African American Males.

Significant behavioral differences exist, well beyond any diagnosed disorder, and is dependent on genetic and environmental influence. There is no majority of people anywhere evidenced as not having signficant behavioral differences, among individuals in any group, not even in a group of two identical twins, in the same household. Proof of how malleable the human brain is to what may appear as the smallest of environmental differences.

The 150 questions in the Aspie Quiz address select behaviors in the population, but only touches on the full expanse of human behavioral expression. And beyond this the neurodiverse construct is ideology, and not reflective of actual identified specific genetic differences, or inherent neurological differences identified among human beings, through testing.

What is measured in the Aspie Quiz is dependent, in part, on one's environment and circumstances changing across time as one adapts to those factors. If an extremely social child eventually becomes involved in a high tech field, away from face to face social interaction, for years, they are not going to score the same as that child would had they gone into a field that requires constant social interaction, for years. Humans continuously adapt; what the Aspie Quiz measures is a constant moving target, based on those continuous adaptations.

It would be interesting to test some of these youth that are actually identified as the diagnosed 1 in 88, to see how they might score, compared to the online population that the aspie quiz reaches. At this point there is no way to tell how individuals with Classic Autism disorder might score as a group, because the Aspie quiz does not attempt to identify and collect data per those that have classic autism disorder.

That makes it difficult to make any valid comparisons between actual autism disorder and any potential neanderthal connection through the use of the Aspie Quiz results. But that doesn't appear to have been his intention, even though the theory is called the Neanderthal Theory of Autism.

Neurodiversity per a significant number of those questions are associated to the common behavioral traits of introversion. Those traits of sitters vs wanderers are studied as existing at similar levels in human beings and the rest of the animal kingdom, likely Neanderthals as well, but we are never going to know for sure. That too, is only a small part of the complexity of what is human behavior, and what might separate two autistic twins from each other per behavioral differences.

It would also be interesting, to test youth and adult twins both diagnosed with autism, with the aspie quiz. An interesting measure in how much environment impacts these traits. A twin raised in the US diagnosed with autism compared to another twin separated diagnosed with Autism, raised in Subsarahan Africa would be interesting as well.

This potential circumstance may already exist among isolated cases of Somalian twins diagnosed with autism separated from each other through migration.

I suspect the overall environment in Sweden and the US, as compared to the overall environment in the US, may impact the development of diagnosed autism in Somalians as well as genetic propensity mixed throughout populations. Abuse could play a part as well in severity of symptoms, but there isn't any significant evidence of it, identified in Sweden or the US.


Another monologue riddled with fallacies, misinterpretations, and other problems in logic as usual by aghogday. I bet RDOS gave up on you long ago.

I think he (or she) doesn't get it.


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DemocraticSocialistHun
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04 Jun 2012, 8:54 am

aghogday wrote:
If 30% percent Autistic traits exist in the US and Sweden, it's not reasonable that these same traits would not exist at least at significant levels in every area of the world, considering autistic like traits are seen in the animal kingdom.


Really, where? In 1 out 166 or higher prevelance?





aghogday wrote:
The folks in the middle east, south Asia, and Africa are not killing off their systemizers with autistic like traits; the engineers, tech folks, mechanics, etc.


In two of those areas the killing happened long ago. They have to import their engineers to build their nuclear facilities, etc. You can bet the few engineers and the like they have are lacking in many of the abilities those in more technologically successful counties possess. South Asia is starting to develop after a long period of stagnation. They no doubt have neurodiverse people, just a lower proportion.

aghogday wrote:
However in highly populated areas with low resources in Africa, and South Asia, infanticide is used to control population for survival purposes, including severely disabled children, that might have conditions like regressive autism, but there is no way for sure to understand what those statistics might be, because of lack of diagnostic expertise in those countries.


The first thing they need to do to get out of their hole is stop digging.

aghogday wrote:
There is no evidence that children of somalian natives living in Sweden, with high rates of autism, are being abused. Abuse alone, has not been evidenced to cause the neurodevelopmental disorder of Autism. And, the medical profession in Sweden is as capable as any other geographical area in the world to make proper diagnoses of Autism.


The objective of psychiatry is to ignore abuse and reverse the gains that were starting to be made.

aghogday wrote:
The 1 in 88 individuals actually diagnosed with autism has little to do with what RDOS categorizes as neurotypical vs. aspie like traits (neurodivergent). These are 8 year olds in classes for the developmentally disabled of which about a third are measured with intellectual deficits and another third are measured as having border line intellectual deficits. He is addressing a much larger part of the population, in what he measures as neurodivergent traits; the approximately 30% that function quite well.


It is a bit strange that we didn't see these problems until recently. A better hypothesis is that something is wrong with society and how children are raised.


aghogday wrote:
His quiz doesn't have a category for a person to register whom has classic autism. Culture and neuroplasticity do impact these autistic like traits in the general population, and if anything modern culture is becoming more neurodivergent per work-related systemizing requirements necessary to survive, as opposed to the past.


The skyrocketing rates of classical autism to Asperger's suggest that modern culture is becoming more neuroelitist.

aghogday wrote:
Many people in US culture are busy systemizing throughout the course of the day whether they are connected to a computer, or a handheld device. The modern hive is very much part of neurodivergent inventions, in part, produced by systemizers with autistic like traits. This influences the process of neuroplasticity and the way the general population becomes neurologically wired through the course of a lifetime.


They are busy yapping away on cell phones while driving at the same time.

aghogday wrote:
Individuals in developing countries likely would not show as many neurodiverse traits, that RDOS labels as such, associated with lack of face to face interaction, etc., if they actually could take his quiz, in part, because they are not interfacing with a machine for hours every day, for years.

Instead, they commonly interact with human beings, in face-to-face communication. Modern Cultures, through technological innovation, are becoming more autistic like in nature, rather than less autistic like in nature.


Computers are now used mainly to connect with other neurotypicals through sites like Facebook. I hardly see current popular sites and software as neurodivergent user-friendly.

aghogday wrote:
We can thank the systemizers such as Bill Gates, and Zuckerberg, in part, for this change in culture, for changing the way some of the population's brains are wired, inherently autistic or not, through the avenue of technological innovations resulting in changes of how one perceives and interacts with the world through changes that occur in the brain as a result of the process of neuroplasticity.


Why couldn't he at least hire someone to write a OS kernel and had to buy one from Seattle Computer Company. RDOS wrote his in assembly code. Why did a Windows 95 (Windows being a decade old OS already) need to be rebooted about every 95 minutes?

aghogday wrote:
While it's not currently associated with any actual inherent disorder in the DSM, it's common sense that individuals whom have less access to interaction with electronic devices, whether they live in the US, Africa, Afghanistan, or Pakistan are going to be neurologically wired more in the direction of face to face social interaction, through the process of neuroplasticity, than their electronic device advantaged counterparts, who spend a great deal of their day interfaced with a machine, for an approximated experience of non-face to face social interaction, which for some people consists of interaction with a video game or pornography, in their leisure hours.


It is also commonsense that environment will not change neurotypicals into neurodivergents. There will be some effect though, yes. Only those near the diagnostic threshold need worry.

aghogday wrote:
In what way do African Americans do better in our society when there is dysfunction? That certainly wasn't evident in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. Although, I tend to think the response would have been much different, if a group of individualsm African American or not, with higher socio-economic influence were impacted by the dysfunction.


"New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina" is a no-win situation. In other cases, they can rap about haters and bling if nothing else.

There are many that are now doing well. How they get the money I have no idea.

aghogday wrote:
People that are accustomed to dealing with adversity, tend to deal with it better than those that don't, if that is what you are referring to. A greater percentage of African Americans are economically disadvantaged than other demographics, so technically there is the potential for more adversity, per that factor.


Adversity isn't one monolithic thing.

aghogday wrote:
No doubt that Obama was highly motivated as an individual, in part, through adversity in his life, as self reported, to achieve the most powerful position in the world, from a quick jump from academia, to Senator, to President, without family background of power and influence. He was the only individual that had the inherent qualities to surpass all other democrat nominees; per the discrimination that still exists in the country, the color of his skin was no advantage in obtaining the nomination, except for the African-American demographic support, in the general election.


He worked hierarchical systems.

aghogday wrote:
What is measured in the Aspie Quiz is dependent, in part, on one's environment and circumstances changing across time as one adapts to those factors.


RDOS has stated he minimizes this as much as possible.

aghogday wrote:
It would also be interesting, to test youth and adult twins both diagnosed with autism, with the aspie quiz. An interesting measure in how much environment impacts these traits. A twin raised in the US diagnosed with autism compared to another twin separated diagnosed with Autism, raised in Subsarahan Africa would be interesting as well.


The first order of business is to establish that at least two different species exists in humanity, at least behavior-wise. What we'll probably find is that most "autism" is abuse cases -- most of which are neurodivergents. In Somalia neurodivergents probably don't exist, at least not the type in Europe, Asia, and the New World.

aghogday wrote:
Abuse could play a part as well in severity of symptoms, but there isn't any significant evidence of it, identified in Sweden or the US.


Psychiatrist look for neurological differences, not the family and other social dynamics. The days of Freud are over. It is now all biomedical claptrap.


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aghogday
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04 Jun 2012, 8:10 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
aghogday wrote:
If 30% percent Autistic traits exist in the US and Sweden, it's not reasonable that these same traits would not exist at least at significant levels in every area of the world, considering autistic like traits are seen in the animal kingdom.


Really, where? In 1 out 166 or higher prevelance?





aghogday wrote:
The folks in the middle east, south Asia, and Africa are not killing off their systemizers with autistic like traits; the engineers, tech folks, mechanics, etc.


In two of those areas the killing happened long ago. They have to import their engineers to build their nuclear facilities, etc. You can bet the few engineers and the like they have are lacking in many of the abilities those in more technologically successful counties possess. South Asia is starting to develop after a long period of stagnation. They no doubt have neurodiverse people, just a lower proportion.

aghogday wrote:
However in highly populated areas with low resources in Africa, and South Asia, infanticide is used to control population for survival purposes, including severely disabled children, that might have conditions like regressive autism, but there is no way for sure to understand what those statistics might be, because of lack of diagnostic expertise in those countries.


The first thing they need to do to get out of their hole is stop digging.

aghogday wrote:
There is no evidence that children of somalian natives living in Sweden, with high rates of autism, are being abused. Abuse alone, has not been evidenced to cause the neurodevelopmental disorder of Autism. And, the medical profession in Sweden is as capable as any other geographical area in the world to make proper diagnoses of Autism.


The objective of psychiatry is to ignore abuse and reverse the gains that were starting to be made.

aghogday wrote:
The 1 in 88 individuals actually diagnosed with autism has little to do with what RDOS categorizes as neurotypical vs. aspie like traits (neurodivergent). These are 8 year olds in classes for the developmentally disabled of which about a third are measured with intellectual deficits and another third are measured as having border line intellectual deficits. He is addressing a much larger part of the population, in what he measures as neurodivergent traits; the approximately 30% that function quite well.


It is a bit strange that we didn't see these problems until recently. A better hypothesis is that something is wrong with society and how children are raised.


aghogday wrote:
His quiz doesn't have a category for a person to register whom has classic autism. Culture and neuroplasticity do impact these autistic like traits in the general population, and if anything modern culture is becoming more neurodivergent per work-related systemizing requirements necessary to survive, as opposed to the past.


The skyrocketing rates of classical autism to Asperger's suggest that modern culture is becoming more neuroelitist.

aghogday wrote:
Many people in US culture are busy systemizing throughout the course of the day whether they are connected to a computer, or a handheld device. The modern hive is very much part of neurodivergent inventions, in part, produced by systemizers with autistic like traits. This influences the process of neuroplasticity and the way the general population becomes neurologically wired through the course of a lifetime.


They are busy yapping away on cell phones while driving at the same time.

aghogday wrote:
Individuals in developing countries likely would not show as many neurodiverse traits, that RDOS labels as such, associated with lack of face to face interaction, etc., if they actually could take his quiz, in part, because they are not interfacing with a machine for hours every day, for years.

Instead, they commonly interact with human beings, in face-to-face communication. Modern Cultures, through technological innovation, are becoming more autistic like in nature, rather than less autistic like in nature.


Computers are now used mainly to connect with other neurotypicals through sites like Facebook. I hardly see current popular sites and software as neurodivergent user-friendly.

aghogday wrote:
We can thank the systemizers such as Bill Gates, and Zuckerberg, in part, for this change in culture, for changing the way some of the population's brains are wired, inherently autistic or not, through the avenue of technological innovations resulting in changes of how one perceives and interacts with the world through changes that occur in the brain as a result of the process of neuroplasticity.


Why couldn't he at least hire someone to write a OS kernel and had to buy one from Seattle Computer Company. RDOS wrote his in assembly code. Why did a Windows 95 (Windows being a decade old OS already) need to be rebooted about every 95 minutes?

aghogday wrote:
While it's not currently associated with any actual inherent disorder in the DSM, it's common sense that individuals whom have less access to interaction with electronic devices, whether they live in the US, Africa, Afghanistan, or Pakistan are going to be neurologically wired more in the direction of face to face social interaction, through the process of neuroplasticity, than their electronic device advantaged counterparts, who spend a great deal of their day interfaced with a machine, for an approximated experience of non-face to face social interaction, which for some people consists of interaction with a video game or pornography, in their leisure hours.


It is also commonsense that environment will not change neurotypicals into neurodivergents. There will be some effect though, yes. Only those near the diagnostic threshold need worry.

aghogday wrote:
In what way do African Americans do better in our society when there is dysfunction? That certainly wasn't evident in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. Although, I tend to think the response would have been much different, if a group of individualsm African American or not, with higher socio-economic influence were impacted by the dysfunction.


"New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina" is a no-win situation. In other cases, they can rap about haters and bling if nothing else.

There are many that are now doing well. How they get the money I have no idea.

aghogday wrote:
People that are accustomed to dealing with adversity, tend to deal with it better than those that don't, if that is what you are referring to. A greater percentage of African Americans are economically disadvantaged than other demographics, so technically there is the potential for more adversity, per that factor.


Adversity isn't one monolithic thing.

aghogday wrote:
No doubt that Obama was highly motivated as an individual, in part, through adversity in his life, as self reported, to achieve the most powerful position in the world, from a quick jump from academia, to Senator, to President, without family background of power and influence. He was the only individual that had the inherent qualities to surpass all other democrat nominees; per the discrimination that still exists in the country, the color of his skin was no advantage in obtaining the nomination, except for the African-American demographic support, in the general election.


He worked hierarchical systems.

aghogday wrote:
What is measured in the Aspie Quiz is dependent, in part, on one's environment and circumstances changing across time as one adapts to those factors.


RDOS has stated he minimizes this as much as possible.

aghogday wrote:
It would also be interesting, to test youth and adult twins both diagnosed with autism, with the aspie quiz. An interesting measure in how much environment impacts these traits. A twin raised in the US diagnosed with autism compared to another twin separated diagnosed with Autism, raised in Subsarahan Africa would be interesting as well.


The first order of business is to establish that at least two different species exists in humanity, at least behavior-wise. What we'll probably find is that most "autism" is abuse cases -- most of which are neurodivergents. In Somalia neurodivergents probably don't exist, at least not the type in Europe, Asia, and the New World.

aghogday wrote:
Abuse could play a part as well in severity of symptoms, but there isn't any significant evidence of it, identified in Sweden or the US.


Psychiatrist look for neurological differences, not the family and other social dynamics. The days of Freud are over. It is now all biomedical claptrap.


The thirty percent is the broader autism phenotype and beyond. One does not even have to have a social/communication impairment to have these traits; they can be completely within the criteria of Restrictive Repetitive Behaviors. In fact, in 1994 the DSM, through an editorial mistake, allowed individuals to potentially be diagnosed with RRB's only, and meet an austism spectrum disorder diagnosis with PDD NOS, until the error was corrected in 2000.

Autistic traits are common among systemizers. Systemizers exist throughout the world, wherever there are human beings. While they might not be disabled with a disorder, in part because of the potential activity of actual face to face interaction in their less technologically developed countries, there are still people stronger in empathy and others stronger in systemization.


Information technology is one of the largest industries in India; the largest country in South Asia. There is no way to tell the actual prevalence of autism disorders in those countries per limited diagnostic ability, but for all we know neurodiversity, as measured by RDOS's quiz, if it could be administered in that country, could be as high or higher than it is in the US, among his demographic of caucasians that he measures. One can't judge inherent neurodiversity alone by the products of cultures, however culture as discussed earlier definitely influences neurological changes and behavior.

I'm not sure where you live, but per those Somalians than live in the US, diagnosed with Autism, the US screens for family abuse more than it ever has in the historical past. Psychiatry for the most part is limited to treatment by medicine. Psychologists, psychotherapists, general practioners and Social workers still screen for family abuse, at least, in the US. They greatly out number psychiatrists, and many people either can't afford or don't have access to an actual psychiatrist.

The process of Neuroplasticity changes the wiring of all human beings, depending on environmental influence and genetics. Differences in neurology among many individuals diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders are unremarkable in brain scans. The areas, such as regressive autism are limited areas where inherent differences have been measured, per example of abnormal brain growth.

Whether or not Gates, an extreme systemizer, had the best product or not, it definitely has changed the world, and how people interact in it.

The US, does not have accurate statistics for what the actual rates of Aspergers is, in the general population, because of the restricted methdology, demographic, and results of CDC studies. They have directed their attention to programs for the developmentally disabled, because that is what the government must plan to fund.

I'm not suggesting that is a good thing. Autism Speaks is funding research at this point in time to determine a fuller accounting for the full population, just in time before the DSM5 goes into affect and Aspergers is no longer a part of that diagnostic criteria. They will likely find much higher rates of higher functioning Autism, as in the recent studies done in the adult population in England.

Yes, I agree that RDOS has attempted to account for environmental influence, however it continues across a lifetime. There is no way to predict the impact of environment, the process of neuroplasticity, and the resulting neurological changes in a human being in the future, and there is no way to accurately measure it from the past, as well.

Society has had an incredible change in how children are raised. Many are raised by TV, videogames, computers, etc., in part. Some of these environmental changes, are only several decades old. This is definitely changing the way brains function through neuroplasticity, behavior, as well as social communication. It is almost impossible to determine the effect of it, per those actually diagnosed with autism, because it is so difficult to find a control group that has not been exposed to a lifetime of novel stimulus, in a similar demographic and location.

When I worked with the public exposed to hundreds of individuals a day, for decades, I had no choice but to adapt. When I worked with computers there was no need to adapt. My Aspie score is 195 at this point in my life, per Aspie quiz.

When I was working with people on a continuous basis, I would have likely scored somewhere close to the balanced area. Before I worked with the general public, I likely would have scored close to 190, and in highschool, was fairly balanced through adaptation. I was probably fairly close, in score, to what I am now, in middle school years and earlier if there was a test designed for children.

Most every human being has the ability to adapt to some degree. I was non-verbal and adapted, but I had no choice but to adapt or not survive. I wasn't sure how I adapted like I did, at different times in my life when it was required, but neuroplasticity explains part of the process in detail, per re-wiring of the brain.

Videogames do little for the skills required in face to face interaction, nor do many other areas of modern communication or some other leisure activities. Children isolated from face to face interaction from others, as part of abuse, do exhibit behaviors associated with social communication difficulties, as well as psychological problems. The influence is not the same if one is partially isolated from others through machine interface, but machine interface does not match face to face interaction in humans or other animals.

There is no data for the actual prevalence of autism in somalia, but if there was, and it could actually be proven to be extremely low, like one sees it in areas such as Amish country, where face to face interaction is the main method of communication, it could be food for thought, in overall prevalence levels.

Autism has been measured in Uganda, another Subsarahan country; it exists, but again as in Somalia, the data is not available to determine at what levels it exists. I wouldn't surprised at all if it is at close to the same levels of 1 in 295, as measured in a scan of an entire community. in Amish Country.

That Amish study as opposed to the South Korean study with a statistic of 1 in 38, of an entire school environment, is noteworthy in comparison. Before a community scan was done in Amish country ASD's were studied to exist, per existing diagnoses, at levels of 1 in 15,000. Autism Spectrum Disorders likely exist everywhere, and it appears that some part of modern culture whether toxins, hormones, etc., or the process of neuroplasticity through cultural stimulus, impacts whether or not someone is diagnosed with an actual disorder, above and beyond genetics.

Facebook, overall, is not entirely social friendly, per the actual human need for face to face interaction, touch, etc. It is a "human friendly" computer interface similar to Microsoft and Apple's developed Graphic user interface to anthropomorphize machines to better approximate a virtual human reality, than our old friend DOS. But, it is not the same as the reality that humans have been adapted to through the course of their existance on the planet.

Those machine interfaces have not only become leisure activities, but a requirement in many areas of subsistence gaining activities.

Real live face to face human interaction does not require the systemizing skills that are required to use the interface of facebook. The more humans sytemize the more humans adapt to that skill, as in any other adaptation to a skill. That's not necessarily going to make a social butterfly into a systemizer with lower levels of empathy, but it has already beem studied as not being particularly psychologically healthy, per social interaction, for some.

I think I'm pretty much agreeing with many of your points, I'm moving into different elements of society that are fairly similar to some of your points, per overall societial influence.

In the US though, just the overall requirement for systemization skills whether it is structuring a list of friends in a cell phone, uploading photos onto a facebook page, or using a computer at a register at Walmart, these activities and many others are increasing the time that most human beings spend systemizing through the course of a day.

In fact, over the last several decades, per studies of young adults in the college environment empathy levels as measured on a longitudinal basis have dropped significantly. That's just a correlation, as well as the process of neuroplasticity and the impact of systemization, but it is a dramatic change in culture per what human beings feed their brains on a daily basis. The diet makes a difference in neurology, and behavior. It doesn't appear that society is moving in the empathy direction.

The study by Autism Speaks may provide a better indication in the systemizing area. Not much hard data, in that area to this point, in the general population, in the US.

One of the biased issues with the data from the Aspie quiz, is that it selects for systemization per the avenue it is provided on the internet. Those that use the internet as heavy users, are more likely to be systemizers than those that don't, if not only by influence of the medium and the process of neuroplasticity.

Another issue is that while about 80% of the population has internet access, there are still pockets of ethnic groups like native American Indians that are far behind the curve, living on reservations, where some still don't have access to phones, as well as very low levels of access to broad band internet access.

The Aspie Quiz recorded a greater response from those identifying themselves as American Indians, than the representative population of Indians identified per US Census.

Some people in the general population, in the US, that have tiny amounts of native American Indian blood identify themselves as such by culture, but not necessarily by Census, so per this ethnic sample, self reports are not necessarily representative of actual majority bloodline per individual.

Since the majority of Native American Indians live on reservations, many of whom do not have internet access, it is extremely unlikely that the higher represented interest shown from the Aspie Quiz data, per native American Indians, is accurate.

Similar issues impact other self reports of ethnic groups including African Americans, where lack of interest is correlated to an extremely limited avenue of access through points on the internet where the quiz is linked, that some ethnic groups are more likely to visit than others, depending on subcultural preferences per internet interests. Beyond this not everyone is into taking 150 question tests on the internet, regardless of what they pertain to, because of limited attention spans. Most commercial self-help quizes are no more than 10 questions long.

So basically what one has is those that visit areas on the internet where the Aspie Quiz is linked, individuals that understand what the term Aspie means, and are interested in taking the time to answer 150 questions. The biggest issue is that the term Aspie, is majority limited to online autistic communities, per what it means. If it doesn't mean anything to someone they aren't likely going to take the time to click on the link and answer 150 questions, if they happen to come across it on the points of the internet where it is made available.

I think it is a good screening tool to pursue further investigation of an autism disorder, if one scores highly on it, but it doesn't appear to be a tool as currently provided to be used for an accurate assessment of different ethnic groups. We don't have accurate data for autism prevalence in much of the world, because those individuals cannot be reached, diagnosed, and measured as having the disorder.

The Aspie Quiz, does not appear to accurately break that barrier, per measuring defined neurodiverse traits, through an estimated extrapolation of defined traits from western countries extended to other areas in the world, per limitations as discussed.

Organizations though, are working worldwide to determine Autism Spectrum Disorder prevalences in every country through actual outreach. It's likely going to take decades to get accurate estimates from all countries, but that is currently the goal as expressed by these organizations that are working together to meet it.

The folks from Amish country for the most part are of Northern European descent. The low levels of autism spectrum disorders speaks clearer and louder to me than any other statistic currently available, of just how much environment likely plays a role, specific to Western Developed countries. And I don't suspect it is all about what we are drinking in the water or eating. And morever, I suspect there are as many individuals that are born sitters, rather than wanderers, included somewhere on a broader autism phenotype in Amish Country, as anywhere else in the world.

That's studied at about 20% as a genetic trait, from birth, rather than a trait acquired from post-natal environmental influence across the animal kingdom. Just because there are low levels of diagnosed autism spectrum disorders, even when scanned population wide, does not mean one is not going to find the type of traits measured as neurodiverse ones on the Aspie Quiz.

I would love to see the scores of the Aspie Quiz, provided by a paper version of the test to a High School group of Amish Individuals, and a version translated in paper form for a classroom of Subsarahan Africans. I don't suspect the scores would be that much different on average, per the animal kingdom population wide propensity for genetic sitting and wandering .

And there is probably someone somewhere that would take the effort to do it. That wouldn't cost nearly as much as DNA testing, to settle the question of whom has more of these traits measured on the Aspie Quiz. Amish Country is the closest thing to a US control group, that I can imagine.

Also an opportunity to use the same screening tool for actual autism spectrum disorders on the Ugandan students to compare the 1 in 295 statistic found in Amish Country. At least, an approximation of that effort is already in the works.

With a little tweaking, and the peer review process for the Aspie Quiz, it's more likely that a University research team would pick up that relatively cheap challenge.

But, it's RDOS's special interest and tool, and I understand the reluctance to change any special interest, in this case to potentially sacrifice terms like Aspie and Neurotypical Hunting, and potentially a few questions, for political correctness that might be hard to stomach, but easier for those in the scientific community to accept.

A much bigger incentive though, for someone to pick up the ball, with the resources, and run with it.

He could still have the personal satisfaction of comparing the two cultures by direct means, per his Neanderthal/Defined Neurodiverse traits interest.

There could always be two versions. :) Maybe a Neurodiversity Quiz and an Aspie Quiz.

Boston University already did a peer reviewed study using PPR here on this internet site to study religious beliefs and Autism, I see a comparison of the Amish and Ugandans as opposed to a class room from New Jersey to add the third and final element to, per a measure of a peer reviewed "Neurodiversity" quiz, as much more interesting, and perhaps much more enlightening.

A scan of autism disorders using the same tool, and a scan of "neurodiverse traits" using the same tool among all three demographics would be extremely interesting, and RDOS owns half of the potential tools.

I think he has heard similar suggestions per the peer review process for his quiz that he may not be willing to compromise on, but maybe in light of what his major special interest is, this may be a way to eventually find the information, that he has been looking for on a personal basis, and that you appear to be interested in, too.

The rest of the scientific community is extremely interested in autistic traits per different cultures and environments, so that might not be a hard sale, even if the quiz was labeled as a Neurodiversity Quiz, as long as it met acceptable standards and was published through a peer reviewed journal.

I'm attempting to provide some middle ground, for what I see as valuable potential for the Aspie Quiz to be used in potentially valuable ways in science, if peer reviewed and validated as a scientific tool. I've already provided much of what I sincerely intend as constructive comments in the past to RDOS, per the Neanderthal aspect of his interests, but just thought of this idea through this dialogue and curious what you think about it, as one interested in RDOS' work.



Last edited by aghogday on 05 Jun 2012, 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Jun 2012, 8:38 pm

I just saw a documentary about Neanderthals the other day. Most people with western european genes seem to have some Neanderthal blood in them. The Neanderthal heritage doesn't limit itself to people with autism and there is no specific correlation between Neanderthals and autism.

It was an interesting documentary. I always thought that Neanderthals where not as brainy and developed as homo sapiens but that didn't seem to be the case at all, on the contrary. We homo sapiens seem to think that we are the most magnificent creatures that ever walked on the face of the earth but I always had some serious doubts about that.



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06 Jun 2012, 6:58 am

aghogday wrote:
The thirty percent is the broader autism phenotype and beyond. One does not even have to have a social/communication impairment to have these traits; they can be completely within the criteria of Restrictive Repetitive Behaviors. In fact, in 1994 the DSM, through an editorial mistake, allowed individuals to potentially be diagnosed with RRB's only, and meet an austism spectrum disorder diagnosis with PDD NOS, until the error was corrected in 2000.


So what distinguishes those that supposedly have a social/communication impairment vs the others? Obviously, psychiatrists should stop looking for biomedical explanations and look to sociological explanations.

aghogday wrote:
Autistic traits are common among systemizers. Systemizers exist throughout the world


You can be sure systemizers with autistic traits are rare or non-existant in the Middle East and Sub-Sahara Africa.



aghogday wrote:
Information technology is one of the largest industries in India; the largest country in South Asia.


India has such a large population that their number of neurodivergents could match ours with a 1/4 prevalence rate. Besides neurotypical "leaders" would rather hire 100 neurotypicals than hire a neurodivergent to get a programming task done. Now, from what I hear you can get programmers at minimum wage.

aghogday wrote:
the US screens for family abuse more than it ever has in the historical past.


Politics has taken over and corrupted everything. Most abuse they see doesn't exist in the first place. Most real abuse goes undetected. In order to see the truth you have to want to see it.

aghogday wrote:
The process of Neuroplasticity changes the wiring of all human beings, depending on environmental influence and genetics.


Genetics sets the limits though.

aghogday wrote:
There is no data for the actual prevalence of autism in somalia, but if there was, and it could actually be proven to be extremely low, like one sees it in areas such as Amish country, where face to face interaction is the main method of communication, it could be food for thought, in overall prevalence levels.


The Amish are proof the problem lies in the changes in society they have largely escaped. Autism isn't detected in them because they are doing something right and we are doing something wrong. It isn't technology either. It is most like largely due to attitude toward strangers and difference and the value of life.

aghogday wrote:
That Amish study as opposed to the South Korean study with a statistic of 1 in 38, of an entire school environment, is noteworthy in comparison. Before a community scan was done in Amish country ASD's were studied to exist, per existing diagnoses, at levels of 1 in 15,000. Autism Spectrum Disorders likely exist everywhere, and it appears that some part of modern culture whether toxins, hormones, etc., or the process of neuroplasticity through cultural stimulus, impacts whether or not someone is diagnosed with an actual disorder, above and beyond genetics.


The social toxins in the school environment is the obvious self-evident problem.

aghogday wrote:
In the US though, just the overall requirement for systemization skills whether it is structuring a list of friends in a cell phone, uploading photos onto a facebook page, or using a computer at a register at Walmart, these activities and many others are increasing the time that most human beings spend systemizing through the course of a day.


Despite having to do math, cashiering is hardly a systemizing job. Any needed creativity has to do with handling neurotypical customers.

aghogday wrote:
In fact, over the last several decades, per studies of young adults in the college environment empathy levels as measured on a longitudinal basis have dropped significantly. That's just a correlation, as well as the process of neuroplasticity and the impact of systemization, but it is a dramatic change in culture per what human beings feed their brains on a daily basis. The diet makes a difference in neurology, and behavior. It doesn't appear that society is moving in the empathy direction.


The term "empathy" is being used too broadly. Neurotypicals are hardly "empathetic," they are quite judgmental in nature -- the reason for the bio-"medical" claptrap.

aghogday wrote:
The Aspie Quiz, does not appear to accurately break that barrier, per measuring defined neurodiverse traits, through an estimated extrapolation of defined traits from western countries extended to other areas in the world, per limitations as discussed.


What is obvious from the data available is that we can expect more technologically successful (by relatively modern criteria) civilizations to have higher rates of neurodivergents. Less successful ones would have a need for fewer. If fewer are needed the civilization is unlikely to support as many. They can't exist if they don't have roles.

aghogday wrote:
Organizations though, are working worldwide to determine Autism Spectrum Disorder prevalences in every country through actual outreach. It's likely going to take decades to get accurate estimates from all countries, but that is currently the goal as expressed by these organizations that are working together to meet it.


At the rate we are going civilization will suffer a train-wreck long before then.

aghogday wrote:
I would love to see the scores of the Aspie Quiz, provided by a paper version of the test to a High School group of Amish Individuals, and a version translated in paper form for a classroom of Subsarahan Africans. I don't suspect the scores would be that much different on average, per the animal kingdom population wide propensity for genetic sitting and wandering .


Well, at this point, I don't care if you think the Earth is flat too. It just isn't plausible.

aghogday wrote:
And there is probably someone somewhere that would take the effort to do it. That wouldn't cost nearly as much as DNA testing, to settle the question of whom has more of these traits measured on the Aspie Quiz. Amish Country is the closest thing to a US control group, that I can imagine.


Because they've avoided the toxic changes in society over the last 150 or so years.

aghogday wrote:
Also an opportunity to use the same screening tool for actual autism spectrum disorders on the Ugandan students to compare the 1 in 295 statistic found in Amish Country. At least, an approximation of that effort is already in the works.


The Neuroelitists Shrieks study is far more dependent on environmental influences than the Aspie-Quiz you keep knocking. They will get results that fog the issue.

aghogday wrote:
With a little tweaking, and the peer review process for the Aspie Quiz, it's more likely that a University research team would pick up that relatively cheap challenge.


It is unlikely that a university would take this up. Such multiculturalists do not want to accept diversity, they deny it even exists.

aghogday wrote:
But, it's RDOS's special interest and tool, and I understand the reluctance to change any special interest, in this case to potentially sacrifice terms like Aspie and Neurotypical Hunting, and potentially a few questions, for political correctness that might be hard to stomach, but easier for those in the scientific community to accept.


He is not going to bend the truth to just to make his theories more appealing.

aghogday wrote:
There could always be two versions. :) Maybe a Neurodiversity Quiz and an Aspie Quiz.


Hardly. There are only two neurologies identified so far.

aghogday wrote:
I think he has heard similar suggestions per the peer review process for his quiz that he may not be willing to compromise on, but maybe in light of what his major special interest is, this may be a way to eventually find the information, that he has been looking for on a personal basis, and that you appear to be interested in, too.


The priority is that there are at least two different races or species at the behavioral level and gaining acceptance of an ethical and moral approach to difference.

aghogday wrote:
The rest of the scientific community is extremely interested in autistic traits per different cultures and environments, so that might not be a hard sale, even if the quiz was labeled as a Neurodiversity Quiz, as long as it met acceptable standards and was published through a peer reviewed journal.


They are interested in pathologizing because they are biased and not being scientific. It is a new variant of racist research -- internal racism.


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07 Jun 2012, 9:59 pm

Fnord wrote:
wogaboo wrote:
Are autistics part Neanderthal?

No more so than non-autistics. Nearly everyone who is descended from European stock may have as much as 4% of their genome in common with Neanderthal Man.

If a person's Neanderthal ancestry makes them autistic, then every single European alive today would have autism.


Actually, you need to check your assumptions. Just because 3%-5% of our DNA (assuming you are not from sub-Saharan Africa) comes from Neanderthal does not mean that we all get the same genes. For example, the Chinese have roughly the same percentage as the French, but the composition of that genetic inheritance is different.

More to the point, though, among the genes identified by Svante Paabo's team at the Max Planck Institute to be inherited from Neanderthal, there were genes strongly correlated with schizophrenia and Autism, as well as metabolic disorders and some other things. At this point, it is no longer viable to deny the connection between Autism and our Neanderthal hybrid ancestry.



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07 Jun 2012, 10:34 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
aghogday wrote:
The thirty percent is the broader autism phenotype and beyond. One does not even have to have a social/communication impairment to have these traits; they can be completely within the criteria of Restrictive Repetitive Behaviors. In fact, in 1994 the DSM, through an editorial mistake, allowed individuals to potentially be diagnosed with RRB's only, and meet an austism spectrum disorder diagnosis with PDD NOS, until the error was corrected in 2000.


So what distinguishes those that supposedly have a social/communication impairment vs the others? Obviously, psychiatrists should stop looking for biomedical explanations and look to sociological explanations.

aghogday wrote:
Autistic traits are common among systemizers. Systemizers exist throughout the world


You can be sure systemizers with autistic traits are rare or non-existant in the Middle East and Sub-Sahara Africa.



aghogday wrote:
Information technology is one of the largest industries in India; the largest country in South Asia.


India has such a large population that their number of neurodivergents could match ours with a 1/4 prevalence rate. Besides neurotypical "leaders" would rather hire 100 neurotypicals than hire a neurodivergent to get a programming task done. Now, from what I hear you can get programmers at minimum wage.

aghogday wrote:
the US screens for family abuse more than it ever has in the historical past.


Politics has taken over and corrupted everything. Most abuse they see doesn't exist in the first place. Most real abuse goes undetected. In order to see the truth you have to want to see it.

aghogday wrote:
The process of Neuroplasticity changes the wiring of all human beings, depending on environmental influence and genetics.


Genetics sets the limits though.

aghogday wrote:
There is no data for the actual prevalence of autism in somalia, but if there was, and it could actually be proven to be extremely low, like one sees it in areas such as Amish country, where face to face interaction is the main method of communication, it could be food for thought, in overall prevalence levels.


The Amish are proof the problem lies in the changes in society they have largely escaped. Autism isn't detected in them because they are doing something right and we are doing something wrong. It isn't technology either. It is most like largely due to attitude toward strangers and difference and the value of life.

aghogday wrote:
That Amish study as opposed to the South Korean study with a statistic of 1 in 38, of an entire school environment, is noteworthy in comparison. Before a community scan was done in Amish country ASD's were studied to exist, per existing diagnoses, at levels of 1 in 15,000. Autism Spectrum Disorders likely exist everywhere, and it appears that some part of modern culture whether toxins, hormones, etc., or the process of neuroplasticity through cultural stimulus, impacts whether or not someone is diagnosed with an actual disorder, above and beyond genetics.


The social toxins in the school environment is the obvious self-evident problem.

aghogday wrote:
In the US though, just the overall requirement for systemization skills whether it is structuring a list of friends in a cell phone, uploading photos onto a facebook page, or using a computer at a register at Walmart, these activities and many others are increasing the time that most human beings spend systemizing through the course of a day.


Despite having to do math, cashiering is hardly a systemizing job. Any needed creativity has to do with handling neurotypical customers.

aghogday wrote:
In fact, over the last several decades, per studies of young adults in the college environment empathy levels as measured on a longitudinal basis have dropped significantly. That's just a correlation, as well as the process of neuroplasticity and the impact of systemization, but it is a dramatic change in culture per what human beings feed their brains on a daily basis. The diet makes a difference in neurology, and behavior. It doesn't appear that society is moving in the empathy direction.


The term "empathy" is being used too broadly. Neurotypicals are hardly "empathetic," they are quite judgmental in nature -- the reason for the bio-"medical" claptrap.

aghogday wrote:
The Aspie Quiz, does not appear to accurately break that barrier, per measuring defined neurodiverse traits, through an estimated extrapolation of defined traits from western countries extended to other areas in the world, per limitations as discussed.


What is obvious from the data available is that we can expect more technologically successful (by relatively modern criteria) civilizations to have higher rates of neurodivergents. Less successful ones would have a need for fewer. If fewer are needed the civilization is unlikely to support as many. They can't exist if they don't have roles.

aghogday wrote:
Organizations though, are working worldwide to determine Autism Spectrum Disorder prevalences in every country through actual outreach. It's likely going to take decades to get accurate estimates from all countries, but that is currently the goal as expressed by these organizations that are working together to meet it.


At the rate we are going civilization will suffer a train-wreck long before then.

aghogday wrote:
I would love to see the scores of the Aspie Quiz, provided by a paper version of the test to a High School group of Amish Individuals, and a version translated in paper form for a classroom of Subsarahan Africans. I don't suspect the scores would be that much different on average, per the animal kingdom population wide propensity for genetic sitting and wandering .


Well, at this point, I don't care if you think the Earth is flat too. It just isn't plausible.

aghogday wrote:
And there is probably someone somewhere that would take the effort to do it. That wouldn't cost nearly as much as DNA testing, to settle the question of whom has more of these traits measured on the Aspie Quiz. Amish Country is the closest thing to a US control group, that I can imagine.


Because they've avoided the toxic changes in society over the last 150 or so years.

aghogday wrote:
Also an opportunity to use the same screening tool for actual autism spectrum disorders on the Ugandan students to compare the 1 in 295 statistic found in Amish Country. At least, an approximation of that effort is already in the works.


The Neuroelitists Shrieks study is far more dependent on environmental influences than the Aspie-Quiz you keep knocking. They will get results that fog the issue.

aghogday wrote:
With a little tweaking, and the peer review process for the Aspie Quiz, it's more likely that a University research team would pick up that relatively cheap challenge.


It is unlikely that a university would take this up. Such multiculturalists do not want to accept diversity, they deny it even exists.

aghogday wrote:
But, it's RDOS's special interest and tool, and I understand the reluctance to change any special interest, in this case to potentially sacrifice terms like Aspie and Neurotypical Hunting, and potentially a few questions, for political correctness that might be hard to stomach, but easier for those in the scientific community to accept.


He is not going to bend the truth to just to make his theories more appealing.

aghogday wrote:
There could always be two versions. :) Maybe a Neurodiversity Quiz and an Aspie Quiz.


Hardly. There are only two neurologies identified so far.

aghogday wrote:
I think he has heard similar suggestions per the peer review process for his quiz that he may not be willing to compromise on, but maybe in light of what his major special interest is, this may be a way to eventually find the information, that he has been looking for on a personal basis, and that you appear to be interested in, too.


The priority is that there are at least two different races or species at the behavioral level and gaining acceptance of an ethical and moral approach to difference.

aghogday wrote:
The rest of the scientific community is extremely interested in autistic traits per different cultures and environments, so that might not be a hard sale, even if the quiz was labeled as a Neurodiversity Quiz, as long as it met acceptable standards and was published through a peer reviewed journal.


They are interested in pathologizing because they are biased and not being scientific. It is a new variant of racist research -- internal racism.


Per current revision of the DSM5 there will be no individuals without RRB's diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Currently, with a PDD NOS diagnosis there are individuals not identified with RRB's with an Autism Spectrum disorder diagnosis. And as stated in the previous post per an editorial error in the DSMIV there was the potential that individuals were diagnosed without any social/communication impairments, in the period of 1994 through 2000.

Autism Spectrum Disorders is a term invented to describe behaviors and symptoms in human beings. The criteria and definition of the disorders has changed greatly over the last few decades as those that determine that human construct have defined and described it differently over that period of time.

Autism will no longer be identified the same way next year as it is this year. RRB's are a criteria of autism, existing in some individuals in the population that do no meet the other criteria that make an actual diagnosis of an Autism Spectrum Disorder. These folks are not considered significantly impaired in social communication. But, never the less, they are among those identified as having autistic traits per the studies done in the US and Sweden, that show these traits exist out into thirty percent of the population.

There are hundreds of types of neurologies identified in human beings, through brain scans that indicate remarkable results, many of which are associated with behavior. The Aspie quiz identifies behaviors as does the DSMIV. That is not actual identification of the physiology associated with neurology in either measure of behavior. Individuals diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders are identified as having varying neurology per behavioral observation. But there is no way to measure it, per actual brain scans, in most individuals.

The term neurotypical is only useful to distinguish actual autism diagnosed individuals and individuals that are not diagnosed with autism; it is a limited subcultural term, that has no actual definition in a dictionary. There is no evidence of typical neurology among human beings, only unremarkable findings on brain scans, that are are also evident in many individuals with autism spectrum disorders.

The ideology that there are two human species has no evidentiary support anywhere in science. In fact, the issue is not even debated in science. There are thousands of disorders that exist, many personality differences, as well as physical differences, but at the end of the day there is proven reproductive compatibility among all groups of human beings existing on the planet.

If you are hoping a correlation is shown with neanderthal DNA and what the Aspie Quiz measures as neurodiversity, I'm not sure why you bring up the Middle East. It is an area where the admixture event is most likely evidenced as occuring. Archaic Neanderthal DNA is measured among individuals in those middle eastern countries per close to the same levels as it is measured anywhere in Northern Europe.

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/may/25-homo-sapiens-meet-new-astounding-family/article_view?b_start:int=3&-C=

Quote:
The likeliest place for human-Neanderthal romance was the Middle East, where bones of both humans and Neanderthals have been found. “Modern humans appeared in the Middle East before 100,000 years ago, and Neanderthals were there at least 60,000 years ago—providing a likely 30,000-year window of opportunity for interbreeding before Neanderthals disappeared,” Pääbo says.


The Aspie quiz is a great tool for measuring what it defines, but it has measured nothing of significance in any middle eastern country or in any African Subsarahan country because the test cannot be used there without a language translation.

So, at this point there is no evidence that those populations would score significantly different than any other defined population group, anywhere else in the world. A suggestion that they would score significantly differently is only a hypothesis, without actual testing of that hypothesis.

An attempt of an extrapolation from the different self-reporting identifying ethnic groups in other English speaking countries through limited internet access provides no evidence of significance among what individuals in the middle east and Subsarahan African countries might score if actually provided the opportunity to take a quiz that was translated in their language.

If there is no actual attempt to translate and actually administer the quiz in those countries, there is no potential that any information regarding results from the quiz in those countries will ever be determined.

And, if there is no interest to adapt to the standards of the peer review process, there is little potential that the hypothesis will ever be tested among those with the potential resources to test it. There might not be a good chance that someone would fund the research but some chance is better than little chance.


I like to keep an open mind and usually check facts before I present them. In checking the statement on the 2 species of humans, I ran across a Department head, from the University of Florida that has written a couple novels expressing his ideology that there are two distinct species of man, one of whom which has unusual systemization, creative, organizational, and out of the box thinking abilities. He relates that species as 2 percent of the population.

Some of his ideology sounds similar to some of the ideology that you have expressed in the discussion. And, reminiscent of the ideologies of RDOS's Neanderthal theory of Autism.

Interestingly though, this ideology and an actual society that has been formed associated with it, has nothing to specific to do with any of the terms used in this discussion, per Autism, Neurodiversity, Neanderthals, or National/geographical Origin.

This individual would likely not stay employed at UF, if he presented anything negative associated with advantage per race, gender, disability or national origin in his publications.

The quote linked below, focuses on the skills associated with systemization, creativity, organization, and out of the box thinking, in describing the two species theory. I never heard of the author before, but he seems to have a similar view expressed in the Neanderthal Theory of Autism, in a completely different context, with similar described characteristics of human beings. He restricts his ideology to a genetic perspective rather than a cultural one, like RDOS is attempting to do.

Quote:
Now, there’s another important distinction to make here. A3 is NOT the same as high IQ. A high IQ means that people are able to remember a lot of facts. People who can remember a lot of facts are considered SMART. Society believes that anyone who is quote ‘smart’, must be able to understand systems. They think that given enough schooling, ANYONE can learn to understand systems. It’s a LIE. And because of society’s blindness to this principle and unwillingness to deal with it, our culture is set up to fail. Our whole process of government get’s this wrong. Elections are set up as competitions. This favors strong A2 people who are street smart, who can manipulate Single Sentence Logic and emotion. When they get elected and need to organize things, they don’t even know where to begin. People appointed to leadership positions are also selected because they are loyal and can keep others in line. It’s all A2. A3 in our society usually comes with statements like creativity, organized, and ‘out of the box thinker’.


http://a3society.org/Two%20Human%20Species



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07 Jun 2012, 11:48 pm

applebiter wrote:
Fnord wrote:
wogaboo wrote:
Are autistics part Neanderthal?

No more so than non-autistics. Nearly everyone who is descended from European stock may have as much as 4% of their genome in common with Neanderthal Man.

If a person's Neanderthal ancestry makes them autistic, then every single European alive today would have autism.


Actually, you need to check your assumptions. Just because 3%-5% of our DNA (assuming you are not from sub-Saharan Africa) comes from Neanderthal does not mean that we all get the same genes. For example, the Chinese have roughly the same percentage as the French, but the composition of that genetic inheritance is different.

More to the point, though, among the genes identified by Svante Paabo's team at the Max Planck Institute to be inherited from Neanderthal, there were genes strongly correlated with schizophrenia and Autism, as well as metabolic disorders and some other things. At this point, it is no longer viable to deny the connection between Autism and our Neanderthal hybrid ancestry.


http://www.wikigenes.org/e/ref/e/12160723.html

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/38620

Per links above the CADPS2 and AUTS2 gene mutations associated with autism have an extremely low correlation with Autism if any.

The AUTS2 mutation has been identified associated with only 1 group of twins, and is not considered an autism succeptibility gene.

The CADPS2 mutation was found inclusive as associated with autism in the most recent study and per that study the mutation is not considered an autism succeptibility gene.

The normal expression of these genes are common in human beings as well as other animals. The normal genes are what is associated with archaic Neanderthal gene variants. Neither of these two mutations are seen in Archaic Neanderthal DNA.

There is no direct evidenced connection between Autism and archaic neanderthal DNA.

The only current suggested connection between archaic Neanderthal DNA/Denosivan DNA is possible immune system advantage. However, there is no definitive link.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/international/study-sex-with-neanderthals-likely-strengthened-human-immune-system/



DemocraticSocialistHun
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08 Jun 2012, 8:52 am

aghogday wrote:
Autism Spectrum Disorders is a term invented to describe behaviors and symptoms in human beings. The criteria and definition of the disorders has changed greatly over the last few decades as those that determine that human construct have defined and described it differently over that period of time.


"Autism Spectrum Disorder" is a term invented by confused people who further confuse issues. Their constantly changing definitions are all unmoored concepts as bizarre as believing in changlings.

aghogday wrote:
There are hundreds of types of neurologies identified in human beings


Aspie Quiz has only identified two species of humans -- neurodivergent and neurotypical.

aghogday wrote:
That is not actual identification of the physiology associated with neurology in either measure of behavior.


I don't know where you get this. It is contrary to almost if not every study -- although it is true that scans are done only on a minority of patients.

aghogday wrote:
The term neurotypical is only useful to distinguish actual autism diagnosed individuals and individuals that are not diagnosed with autism; it is a limited subcultural term, that has no actual definition in a dictionary. There is no evidence of typical neurology among human beings, only unremarkable findings on brain scans, that are are also evident in many individuals with autism spectrum disorders.


I use RDOS's definition.

aghogday wrote:
The ideology that there are two human species has no evidentiary support anywhere in science. In fact, the issue is not even debated in science. There are thousands of disorders that exist, many personality differences, as well as physical differences, but at the end of the day there is proven reproductive compatibility among all groups of human beings existing on the planet.


See Aspie-Quiz

aghogday wrote:
If you are hoping a correlation is shown with neanderthal DNA and what the Aspie Quiz measures as neurodiversity, I'm not sure why you bring up the Middle East. It is an area where the admixture event is most likely evidenced as occuring. Archaic Neanderthal DNA is measured among individuals in those middle eastern countries per close to the same levels as it is measured anywhere in Northern Europe.

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/may/25-homo-sapiens-meet-new-astounding-family/article_view?b_start:int=3&-C=

Quote:
The likeliest place for human-Neanderthal romance was the Middle East, where bones of both humans and Neanderthals have been found. “Modern humans appeared in the Middle East before 100,000 years ago, and Neanderthals were there at least 60,000 years ago—providing a likely 30,000-year window of opportunity for interbreeding before Neanderthals disappeared,” Pääbo says.


Except the genes for neanderthal-type behaviors has been stamped out over the last few hundred years.

aghogday wrote:
The Aspie quiz is a great tool for measuring what it defines, but it has measured nothing of significance in any middle eastern country or in any African Subsarahan country because the test cannot be used there without a language translation.

An attempt of an extrapolation from the different self-reporting identifying ethnic groups in other English speaking countries through limited internet access provides no evidence of significance among what individuals in the middle east and Subsarahan African countries might score if actually provided the opportunity to take a quiz that was translated in their language.

If there is no actual attempt to translate and actually administer the quiz in those countries, there is no potential that any information regarding results from the quiz in those countries will ever be determined.


The is no translation because interest is lacking, indicating that there probably isn't anything to measure. Plus it should be self-evident that Islamofascists are even less tolerant of neurodiversity than western psychiatry.

aghogday wrote:
And, if there is no interest to adapt to the standards of the peer review process, there is little potential that the hypothesis will ever be tested among those with the potential resources to test it. There might not be a good chance that someone would fund the research but some chance is better than little chance.


Adaptation that requires academic dishonesty (political correctness) isn't an option.


aghogday wrote:
I like to keep an open mind and usually check facts before I present them. In checking the statement on the 2 species of humans, I ran across a Department head, from the University of Florida that has written a couple novels expressing his ideology that there are two distinct species of man, one of whom which has unusual systemization, creative, organizational, and out of the box thinking abilities. He relates that species as 2 percent of the population.

Some of his ideology sounds similar to some of the ideology that you have expressed in the discussion. And, reminiscent of the ideologies of RDOS's Neanderthal theory of Autism.


No doubt those who would get high neurodivergent scores on Aspie-Quiz.



aghogday wrote:
The quote linked below, focuses on the skills associated with systemization, creativity, organization, and out of the box thinking, in describing the two species theory. I never heard of the author before, but he seems to have a similar view expressed in the Neanderthal Theory of Autism, in a completely different context, with similar described characteristics of human beings. He restricts his ideology to a genetic perspective rather than a cultural one, like RDOS is attempting to do.

Quote:
Now, there’s another important distinction to make here. A3 is NOT the same as high IQ. A high IQ means that people are able to remember a lot of facts. People who can remember a lot of facts are considered SMART. Society believes that anyone who is quote ‘smart’, must be able to understand systems. They think that given enough schooling, ANYONE can learn to understand systems. It’s a LIE. And because of society’s blindness to this principle and unwillingness to deal with it, our culture is set up to fail. Our whole process of government get’s this wrong. Elections are set up as competitions. This favors strong A2 people who are street smart, who can manipulate Single Sentence Logic and emotion. When they get elected and need to organize things, they don’t even know where to begin. People appointed to leadership positions are also selected because they are loyal and can keep others in line. It’s all A2. A3 in our society usually comes with statements like creativity, organized, and ‘out of the box thinker’.


http://a3society.org/Two%20Human%20Species
[/quote]

No doubt Aspie (neurodivergent) talents, although RDOS doesn't try to measure these hard-to-measure talents.


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08 Jun 2012, 1:18 pm

aghogday wrote:


A mix of truth and fiction. The A2 is assumed to be less developed than A3. Actually, A2 (neurotypical, eusocial) developed after A3. In order to gain eusociality and the ability to learn from and teach others much has been lost, like the ability to invent solutions in the first place. A2 spreads inventions (and rather reluctantly, at least at first), not create them.

John Hawks, Gregory Cochran, Henry Harpending, and many others point out that human evolution is accelerating.

Apparently the evolutionary path may turn out to be a dead-end. A2s (neurotypicals) are destroying the environment. What humans are doing now will only work in the short-run. Hopefully the crises will trigger an evolutionary change that saves humanity. Odds are even if humanity doesn't destroy itself, the hierarchies will destroy themselves (and probably take most people with them).

Eugenicists aren't going to identify A3s and promote them, they will pathologize them as autistics and try to turn them into A2s. The best thing they can do is find another line of work where they will not engage in any form of meddling or hubris.


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08 Jun 2012, 7:34 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
aghogday wrote:
That is not actual identification of the physiology associated with neurology in either measure of behavior.


I don't know where you get this. It is contrary to almost if not every study -- although it is true that scans are done only on a minority of patients.

aghogday wrote:
If you are hoping a correlation is shown with neanderthal DNA and what the Aspie Quiz measures as neurodiversity, I'm not sure why you bring up the Middle East. It is an area where the admixture event is most likely evidenced as occuring. Archaic Neanderthal DNA is measured among individuals in those middle eastern countries per close to the same levels as it is measured anywhere in Northern Europe.

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/may/25-homo-sapiens-meet-new-astounding-family/article_view?b_start:int=3&-C=

Quote:
The likeliest place for human-Neanderthal romance was the Middle East, where bones of both humans and Neanderthals have been found. “Modern humans appeared in the Middle East before 100,000 years ago, and Neanderthals were there at least 60,000 years ago—providing a likely 30,000-year window of opportunity for interbreeding before Neanderthals disappeared,” Pääbo says.


Except the genes for neanderthal-type behaviors has been stamped out over the last few hundred years.

aghogday wrote:
The Aspie quiz is a great tool for measuring what it defines, but it has measured nothing of significance in any middle eastern country or in any African Subsarahan country because the test cannot be used there without a language translation.

An attempt of an extrapolation from the different self-reporting identifying ethnic groups in other English speaking countries through limited internet access provides no evidence of significance among what individuals in the middle east and Subsarahan African countries might score if actually provided the opportunity to take a quiz that was translated in their language.

If there is no actual attempt to translate and actually administer the quiz in those countries, there is no potential that any information regarding results from the quiz in those countries will ever be determined.


The is no translation because interest is lacking, indicating that there probably isn't anything to measure. Plus it should be self-evident that Islamofascists are even less tolerant of neurodiversity than western psychiatry.

aghogday wrote:
And, if there is no interest to adapt to the standards of the peer review process, there is little potential that the hypothesis will ever be tested among those with the potential resources to test it. There might not be a good chance that someone would fund the research but some chance is better than little chance.


Adaptation that requires academic dishonesty (political correctness) isn't an option.


There are definitely brains scans that show a number of differences among some individuals with autism spectrum disorders, but not consistently and in some cases the scans are completely unremarkable, particularly among males with Aspergers syndrome.

Interestingly the extreme male brain does not show up on MRI Scans for males, with aspergers, but it does for females. The brains of males with aspergers are actually similiar as compared to control groups of non-aspergers males. The brains of Asperger males and females are similiar, per the study.

There we have an actual research study that provides evidence for the results in behavioral measures of Brain Sex ID provided in informal poll results from testing here, that showed much of the same results with neutral results for both females and males overall, in the behavioral tests.

http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/in-brief/2012/cognition-and-behavior-asperger-brains-similar-across-sexes

It would be interesting to see a similiar study between male and female individuals with autism disorder. Brain scans already show abnormal brain growth among males with regressive autism that it is not measured significantly in females with regressive autism.

There was no significant difference in abnormal brain growth among individuals with Autism disorder/aspergers syndrome, without regressive autism.

Psychology attempts to provide consistent measurement of behavior, but biology doesn't play by consistent rules.

There is evidence that archaic neanderthal DNA exists in individuals in Middle east at close to the same levels that it is exists in Northern Europe. There is no empirical evidence, that any of it has been stamped out in the last several hundred years. If one wants to get empirical data from the Aspie Quiz, in that area of the world, it is going to require concerted effort for change, to administer the test in that area.

The idea that a culture in the middle east that has a great deal of disadain for the West, hasn't asked for a translation of the aspie quiz, is nothing more than a potential indication that they have never heard about it, or would not consider delving into something promoted by the west, and certainly wouldn't know what the heck the word "Aspie" meant, considering the general cultural divide, and difference in language. No language translation of the word Aspie, means for all practical intents and purposes, that it is not a part of the reality of that culture.

The Aspie quiz relies on data from the aspie quiz for what is and what isn't defined as neurodiversity. And what is suggested to be related to neanderthal behavior.

The lack of interest idea has no empirical basis for different ethnic groups, because the quiz is provided in limited areas of the internet, applicable to different interests among different demographics.

If one does not come across the quiz, on the internet, or doesn't know what it means, it never was a part of an individual's reality. That's not a lack of interest, it's a lack of knowledge that the aspie quiz exists. And of course, there are a thousand other reasons, why a person might decide not to take the test if they came across it, other than what would necessarily be reflective of what their results on the test might be.

The only way someone could even work interest into the equation is if someone were to approach an actual group of individuals, fully explain the test to all of the individuals in a manner that they could understand, and then get a response of interest as to whether or not someone wanted to take the test.

But even at that point, all one would have is evidence of lack of interest in taking the test, not evidence of anything associated with potential test results. The only way to arrive at that empirical data is for someone to actually take the test.

The data based on interest, would have to be thrown out, if there was any hope of it passing through the peer review process, because it is not empirically based data. The geographic data, based on extrapolation from other countries, is not empircal based data, as well, because in part it is based on this notion of interest as directly associated with potential results of the test, which, again is not empirically based methodology.

When I was suggesting two forms of the test, I was suggesting that he keep his special interest in this test as is, called the Aspie Quiz, and develop a similar test, perhaps called the neurodiversity quiz, that would be acceptable for the peer review process. All that would mean is deleting anything that is not empirically based in nature. I can only offer limited suggestions; I'm sure there are others familar with the peer review process, that could look at the test and the methodology, and provide specific reccommendations, within a day or two.

Most of the questions would likely meet that standard, but it is not reasonable that the stuff based on opinion, like this interest idea, would meet peer review process. I'm no expert, or a scientist, but there are gaping holes, that can be found per the interest aspect of the test, simply because of the limitations in the availability and accessibility of the test.

The quiz overall is a good measure, it wouldn't hurt to move in a more empirically based direction, through the peer review process, to actually potentially find out what individuals in areas like Amish Country and Uganda might score. Sometimes thinking out of the box can restrict one from getting results from within the box. Both areas have their merit. Moreever, it can be very difficult for some individuals with autism spectrum disorders, to move out of their own box, whether it is generally out of the box or in their box thinking. My suggestions come from another box.

I'm not a creative person, I just move from different parts of the hive mixing honey, to get different results. I couldn't do that without the accommodative assistance provided by the hive, in computer technology, and tools like google. Not all individuals diagnosed with autism are inherently creative.

Some are great systemizers that are terrible in some areas of organization and planning. Some are not creative at all and rarely think out of the box. Some are more likely to notice details. And some others appear to live completely within a world of their own, that is dramatically different from any world that one has heard described. And some are certainly part of a specialized aspect of the hive.

The internet provides a rare opportunity for those different minds to meet. It is not particualrly advantageous to discount any input, there are always potential jewels to be found within the rough of minds.

The A3's as identified from the post I provided before, sounds like the type of strengths in autism that you and RDOS describe, but it has never been the type that I as an individual have lived. Systemization, patterns, sensory experience, and details is my way of thinking.

Organization, creativity, and thinking out of the box, have never been strengths for me. There would likely be no roads or bridges, if my type of thinking was prevalent in society, or those animal housings that temple grandhin designs. Fortunately my wife has the organization, planning, and thinking out of the box abilities. But, I can fill out the paper work. If someone can read my handwriting. :)

The so called A3's and/or the systemizers are as much to blame in the grandscheme of culure for the benefits and the problems of culture as anyone else. Nuclear technology did not come from a non-systemizing mind, nor did many of the technological innovations that are destroying the environment. Culture has long past reached the point where humans in any identified group were actually measured signifcantly in control of it.

Most everyone autistic or non-autistic is part of a cultural hive, either wittingly or unwittingly. The global hive has no intended purpose or soul; it exists. It is much like nature, and that's not surpising, because it is an extension of it. From a distance from the planet it looks like organization, and even a hive of lights, but the reality is a spreading wave. Culture is evolving rapidly, in it's many complex parts, and humans, in part, are keeping up with it, through the process of neuroplasticity.

Humans, overall, are evolving in one lifetime through the process of neuroplasticity, much more than any inherent tweak from environment.

That in part is why heterogenous societies have so much conflict. In essence while connected to a hive in so many cultural ways, overall, humans are still tribal animals. This definitely applies to individuals self-reported as autistic, as evidenced on this internet site; it might not be a football team that subgroups align themselves for a tribal/territorial cause, but certainly seen in aspects like "NT", Autism Supremacy,"Evil" Autism Speaks, Neurodiversity, and even an attempt to separate some into another species, which doesn't appear to be as much a concern in the US, as it does in Europe, where homogenity is losing it's hold.

The likelyhood is that general human nature, and that inherent tribal/territorial aspect that really hasn't changed much for anyone, that competes for resources, would be the bear swatting at the hive, that eventually causes a hive, that humans are not inherently evolved for well, to lose the illusion of organization, that is transient, at most.

It doesn't take much. The US is probably under the greatest of illusions of countries. 9/11 was just a tickle of the effect of the bear. It's been over 10 years, and mostly forgotten, because some don't have much of a memory of that type of conflict on our soil, or anywhere else, for that matter.

There are too many destructive elements in the world, among those attractive elements in the honey comb, to keep the bear from swatting harder at the hive. Whether or not the bear has mostly "neurodiverse" traits from the aspie quiz, is not going to make much difference, when tribe, territory, and resources are at stake.

Considering there are 7 Billion humans not all connected to the hive, they are likely going to be around quite a bit longer, barring a bear whose influence moves well past the hive.

The ones that are currently the least advantaged through the cultural by-products of the hive, may be the ones most likely to adapt. Places where there is less perceived honey for bears.

Those whom are rovers are more likely to migrate than those whom are sitters. Overall we can probably thank the Rovers more for the hive than the sitters. But there is an overall advantage for both natures, seen throughout the animal kingdom. Sometimes it's hard to know in the long term whether it was the right decision to stay and go. Sitters and Rovers provide alternative scenarios.

Hard to say whether the indigenous Subsarahan folks that made the decision to stay made the best choice overall in the long-term, per the scale of tribe. On the scale of species both choices were likely the best. On the scale of nature, many species no longer exist, in part, because of the decision to go, including Neanderthals, from the evidence as it exists.



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09 Jun 2012, 12:56 pm

aghogday wrote:
There is evidence that archaic neanderthal DNA exists in individuals in Middle east at close to the same levels that it is exists in Northern Europe. There is no empirical evidence, that any of it has been stamped out in the last several hundred years. If one wants to get empirical data from the Aspie Quiz, in that area of the world, it is going to require concerted effort for change, to administer the test in that area.


It is unlikely the genes for Aspie communication and courtship rituals has survived in (at least most of) the Middle East. Granted hard evidence may be absent, other than the fact that the Middle East is a place of social turmoil and few economic successes, despite rich supplies of valuable economic resources.

aghogday wrote:
The quiz overall is a good measure, it wouldn't hurt to move in a more empirically based direction, through the peer review process, to actually potentially find out what individuals in areas like Amish Country and Uganda might score. Sometimes thinking out of the box can restrict one from getting results from within the box. Both areas have their merit. Moreever, it can be very difficult for some individuals with autism spectrum disorders, to move out of their own box, whether it is generally out of the box or in their box thinking. My suggestions come from another box.


It would be nice to have data on the Amish and Sub-Sahara Africa, but the available information seems fairly solid already.

aghogday wrote:
Some are great systemizers that are terrible in some areas of organization and planning. Some are not creative at all and rarely think out of the box. Some are more likely to notice details. And some others appear to live completely within a world of their own, that is dramatically different from any world that one has heard described. And some are certainly part of a specialized aspect of the hive.


A lot of the trouble is from following bad advice of biased race hygiene researchers and their ilk and/or the parents' innate intolerance for neurodiversity.

aghogday wrote:
The so called A3's and/or the systemizers are as much to blame in the grandscheme of culure for the benefits and the problems of culture as anyone else. Nuclear technology did not come from a non-systemizing mind, nor did many of the technological innovations that are destroying the environment. Culture has long past reached the point where humans in any identified group were actually measured signifcantly in control of it.


It is the overbreeding of A2s and their misuse of A3 inventions that are the problem.

aghogday wrote:
That in part is why heterogenous societies have so much conflict. In essence while connected to a hive in so many cultural ways, overall, humans are still tribal animals. This definitely applies to individuals self-reported as autistic, as evidenced on this internet site; it might not be a football team that subgroups align themselves for a tribal/territorial cause, but certainly seen in aspects like "NT", Autism Supremacy,"Evil" Autism Speaks, Neurodiversity, and even an attempt to separate some into another species, which doesn't appear to be as much a concern in the US, as it does in Europe, where homogenity is losing it's hold.


Neurodivergents are not tribal by nature, at least like NTs anyway. That doesn't mean that some don't occasionally gain awareness of what is going on and being done to them.

aghogday wrote:
There are too many destructive elements in the world, among those attractive elements in the honey comb, to keep the bear from swatting harder at the hive. Whether or not the bear has mostly "neurodiverse" traits from the aspie quiz, is not going to make much difference, when tribe, territory, and resources are at stake.


NTs did 9/11. Neurodivergents are too marginalized and I doubt have the innate qualities that would enable them to gain the skills to engage in terrorism.


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09 Jun 2012, 11:02 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
aghogday wrote:
There is evidence that archaic neanderthal DNA exists in individuals in Middle east at close to the same levels that it is exists in Northern Europe. There is no empirical evidence, that any of it has been stamped out in the last several hundred years. If one wants to get empirical data from the Aspie Quiz, in that area of the world, it is going to require concerted effort for change, to administer the test in that area.


It is unlikely the genes for Aspie communication and courtship rituals has survived in (at least most of) the Middle East. Granted hard evidence may be absent, other than the fact that the Middle East is a place of social turmoil and few economic successes, despite rich supplies of valuable economic resources.

aghogday wrote:
The quiz overall is a good measure, it wouldn't hurt to move in a more empirically based direction, through the peer review process, to actually potentially find out what individuals in areas like Amish Country and Uganda might score. Sometimes thinking out of the box can restrict one from getting results from within the box. Both areas have their merit. Moreever, it can be very difficult for some individuals with autism spectrum disorders, to move out of their own box, whether it is generally out of the box or in their box thinking. My suggestions come from another box.


It would be nice to have data on the Amish and Sub-Sahara Africa, but the available information seems fairly solid already.

aghogday wrote:
Some are great systemizers that are terrible in some areas of organization and planning. Some are not creative at all and rarely think out of the box. Some are more likely to notice details. And some others appear to live completely within a world of their own, that is dramatically different from any world that one has heard described. And some are certainly part of a specialized aspect of the hive.


A lot of the trouble is from following bad advice of biased race hygiene researchers and their ilk and/or the parents' innate intolerance for neurodiversity.

aghogday wrote:
The so called A3's and/or the systemizers are as much to blame in the grandscheme of culure for the benefits and the problems of culture as anyone else. Nuclear technology did not come from a non-systemizing mind, nor did many of the technological innovations that are destroying the environment. Culture has long past reached the point where humans in any identified group were actually measured signifcantly in control of it.


It is the overbreeding of A2s and their misuse of A3 inventions that are the problem.

aghogday wrote:
That in part is why heterogenous societies have so much conflict. In essence while connected to a hive in so many cultural ways, overall, humans are still tribal animals. This definitely applies to individuals self-reported as autistic, as evidenced on this internet site; it might not be a football team that subgroups align themselves for a tribal/territorial cause, but certainly seen in aspects like "NT", Autism Supremacy,"Evil" Autism Speaks, Neurodiversity, and even an attempt to separate some into another species, which doesn't appear to be as much a concern in the US, as it does in Europe, where homogenity is losing it's hold.


Neurodivergents are not tribal by nature, at least like NTs anyway. That doesn't mean that some don't occasionally gain awareness of what is going on and being done to them.

aghogday wrote:
There are too many destructive elements in the world, among those attractive elements in the honey comb, to keep the bear from swatting harder at the hive. Whether or not the bear has mostly "neurodiverse" traits from the aspie quiz, is not going to make much difference, when tribe, territory, and resources are at stake.


NTs did 9/11. Neurodivergents are too marginalized and I doubt have the innate qualities that would enable them to gain the skills to engage in terrorism.


There is no reliable information per any Neurodiveristy traits as defined in the Aspie Quiz, in the middle east or Subsarahan Africa, per the fact that the interest element in the Aspie Quiz cannot be reliably measured per anything associated specific to the scores of the test, per limited accessibility of the online quiz. And moreover, due to the fact that the test is not made available per translation or accessibility in those actual indigenous populations.

At this point in time there is only evidence that refutes a Neanderthal Theory of Autism, per the actual hard data that exists per the Children of Indigenous Somalians diagnosed at high rates of autism in the US and Sweden, as related to the current data that there is little Neanderthal archaic DNA that exists in the populations of the Subsarahan.

So the data as it exists indicates there is no specific relationship between archaic Neanderthal DNA and autism disorder, that does not exist anywhere else in the world, given the control group of children of Indigenous Somalians already available in the US and Sweden.

If one is going to suggest that it was neurodiversity that was being measured and not autism disorder, there is no indication of that in the actual title of the theory. At this point it is a commonly known fact that children of Indigenous Somalians born in the US and Sweden have high rates of Autism.

Basically it boils down to one statement that solidly refutes the genetic aspect of the theory, per the scientific data as it currently exists, in relation to the title of the theory.

Children of Indigenous Somalians, a demographic of Subsarahan Africans measured as having little to no Archaic Neanderthal DNA are diagnosed with Autism at high levels both in the US and Sweden.

There is no evidence of abuse, nor is there evidence that abuse causes autism disorder, so the data stands solidly as is.

There is the potential though, to move in another direction to obtain valuable information on potential cultural differences and the level of neurodiversity traits defined and measured in the Aspie Quiz, among the different cultures.

Right now the results of the test are extremely limited in reach to actual populations beyond online autistic communities. That is likely where most people first hear about it, since doctors don't use it as a screening tool, and the term Aspie is an invention of the online autistic community. Autistic online communties are an extremely limited demographic, among those that exist in the world.

Overall while internet access is available per many western developed countries, the current accessible avenue for the aspie quiz, the language translations are limited almost entirely to Northern Europe and the US, which represents only a small limited sample of the heterogenity of peoples and cultures across the world.

If the quiz was peer reviewed as a scientific screening tool, to identify a new measure of human traits associated with neurodiversity, those limitations could change, through the multitude of additional resources that would become available.

The world of research science is certainly not limited to those limited in traits currently defined as neurodiverse in the Aspie Quiz. And there are individuals diagnosed with autism in those fields that might be interested in using the quiz for research, that have specifically made it known that they are behind the ideology of neurodiveristy

I'm not knocking the potential that Neanderthals have contributed to the human condition as it currenly stands, perhaps some of the behavioral traits measured in the aspie quiz, but there is too much evidence against the notion that it is specific to autism, that is a term for a diagnosed disorder noted in all populations, studied so far.

The only way to find any association of the traits per individuals in areas with low to no measured archaic DNA, is to actually test those individuals. It's been done per actual autism disorder, and the results are confirmed as positive, but it hasn't been done for the traits measured in the Aspie quiz. Sorry for the redundancy, but I sincerely think there is the real potential that could change in the future, if the quiz was tweaked and peer reviewed. :)

I've already found that there are many who don't have much faith in research science, but I keep in mind that it is a field that is one of those niche's for individuals that are likely of what the aspies quiz defines as neurodiverse in inclination. That's another demographic that could be measured by the reseach itself, if the quiz was peer reviewed.



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10 Jun 2012, 5:10 am

i always end up thinking what if....
so here i go,
what if "part neanderthals" are always atracted by others with neanderthal traits?
what if by cross breeding between part neanderthals you could get almost full neanderthals?
what if those "crosbreds with high neanderthal percentage" are known as aspergers because their parents where atrected to each other through these special neanderthal traits (like innovativity, not caring for what the majority thinks, or feeling like you're on the wrong planet)

i myself come from a long lineage of "other worldly people" who end up getting themselves in trouble by doing things that are either socially uneccapteble or became acceptable after their time,
all of my family also matures rather late (in their twenty's) and never get verry tall....
i am a descent of irish, english, dutch, friesian, polish, russian, and basque origin with some yewish and romani/ traveller genes although there might be some i do not yet know about.
these are (almost) all types of people that have high percentages of neanderthal genes (according to some genetic discovery's).
theres also a lot of fysical traits in my family that point towards neanderthal heritage,
like red hair, short and broad appearance, weighing more than docters estimate (like me i am at a healthy weight and skinny looking at 80 kilo's wich is strange since i am only 1.68 meters tall)
we also share a family dental problem being an overbite of te upper jaw making oure chins verry small, this upperbite normally is only on the front teeth with us the whole upper jaw is bigger than the lower jaw.making oure chins rather small
we also all share (at least some) autistic traits with some officially diagnosed with add and or aspergers.
then theres hair, we are rather hairy, wich is not always good when you're a female,
i am going to use myself as an example my hair (yes the stuff on my head not going in detail on the rest) is completly un handelable and i have to choose short or dreadlocks or will have a giant birdsnest on my head i chose dreadlocks, ending up with 85 rather thick dreadlocks and a lot off people asking is that all you're own hair and yes it is, before dreadlocks i had to get horse combs because they were the only ones that would not break...

so here i go again,
what if my verry great great grand parent (about 30-500000 years ago) where neanderthal hybrids lets say 50/50 percent human/ neanderthal and they had kids one of these kids met a 75 percent neanderthal because he was atraccted to his neanderthal traits, and so on, can it be that in some familys and or tribes who only breed with others with neanderthal traits the percentage of neanderthal genes could be way higher then test results so far show?

if i had the money i would get my own dna tested straight away.

and just for the record, i see being catagorized as a neanderthal as a compliment and do not want to hurt any ones feelings,
also my english is not perfect (i myself am dutch) but its worth the try and i think that if you read the misspelled words out loud you should be able to understand.