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Mr_Nice
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12 Aug 2013, 6:08 am

There is a correlation between IQ and salary, higher the IQ, higher the salary. Just the way it should be.



rdos
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12 Aug 2013, 6:29 am

paxfilosoof wrote:
He claims that the brains are wired different which make it difficult to interpret nonverbal, eye-contact, and misses unspoken social norms at the same time which is true.
He also claim that aspergians communicate verbal which is the case. He also explain what you call neurodiversity nonverbal (something you recognize in 10 seconds when you meeting someone new, the feeling of "insane" and "sane")


It seems to me that he reasons as a solitary neurodiverse individual in a neurotypical society. However, my experience as a neurodiverse individual is completely different. I live in an neurodiverse-only family, I was brought up (in a rural area) in a neurodiverse-only family. Sure, I've had to live with a neurotypical majority, but that is more like an foreigner that can blend in than as a member of that society. My perspective allows me to know how neurodiverse people behave naturally, and I can study things in a natural setting more or less unaffected by the neurotypical majority society. My children have been allowed to act naturally at home from birth, and also have managed to learn how to behave in a neurotypical society. They are essentially "bilingual" just like I am. This is the outcome we should strive for. Neurodiverse people that can act naturally in neurodiverse groups and can pass for neurotypical when required only.

So, no, I cannot identify with that way of spotting neurodiverse people. That is solely described from a neurotypical perspective, using people that haven't adapted well to neurotypical standards, not from a neurodiverse perspective. I can often very quickly spot a neurodiverse person just by looking at body cues. Cues that I'm sure neurotypical people miss all together.

paxfilosoof wrote:
So let me sum up:

1. He indeed claims aspergian people communicate primarily verbally. And this is the case.
He claims that people with dyslexia (sometimes aspergian sometimes neurotypical) are sometimes people with aspergian traits (majority aspergian traits) and neurotypical language trait (mixed genes). So he explains that you could have neurotypical traits but be aspergian if the majority of traits are aspergian (look at table end of his book)


That's not true. Dyslexia is linked to the scientific neurodiversity definition. The reason that isolated neurodiverse people primarily communicate verbally is because that is the only way they can get understood by neurotypicals. It's neither their preferred nor their natural way of communicating.

paxfilosoof wrote:
table:
Image


That table is the primary reason why I had to invent the scientific neurodiversity definition. Not even half of these traits are related to neurodiversity, and if I were to rely on such people's opinions of neurodiversity I would get nothing published. In fact, this is just as bad as the labels themselves. You don't just put all your preferred / disliked traits into a collection and label them something. That's the logic behind discrimination and group-think. You need to prove that the traits are related with some objective method before you create labels.

paxfilosoof wrote:
Here he explains in a couple of pages what an aspergian is without going into the neurology and genetics:
http://web.archive.org/web/200810152110 ... ights.org/


I liked that a lot better, but ADHD not related to autism? Is he serious?



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12 Aug 2013, 6:52 am

rdos wrote:
paxfilosoof wrote:
He claims that the brains are wired different which make it difficult to interpret nonverbal, eye-contact, and misses unspoken social norms at the same time which is true.
He also claim that aspergians communicate verbal which is the case. He also explain what you call neurodiversity nonverbal (something you recognize in 10 seconds when you meeting someone new, the feeling of "insane" and "sane")


It seems to me that he reasons as a solitary neurodiverse individual in a neurotypical society. However, my experience as a neurodiverse individual is completely different. I live in an neurodiverse-only family, I was brought up (in a rural area) in a neurodiverse-only family. Sure, I've had to live with a neurotypical majority, but that is more like an foreigner that can blend in than as a member of that society. My perspective allows me to know how neurodiverse people behave naturally, and I can study things in a natural setting more or less unaffected by the neurotypical majority society. My children have been allowed to act naturally at home from birth, and also have managed to learn how to behave in a neurotypical society. They are essentially "bilingual" just like I am. This is the outcome we should strive for. Neurodiverse people that can act naturally in neurodiverse groups and can pass for neurotypical when required only.

So, no, I cannot identify with that way of spotting neurodiverse people. That is solely described from a neurotypical perspective, using people that haven't adapted well to neurotypical standards, not from a neurodiverse perspective. I can often very quickly spot a neurodiverse person just by looking at body cues. Cues that I'm sure neurotypical people miss all together.

paxfilosoof wrote:
So let me sum up:

1. He indeed claims aspergian people communicate primarily verbally. And this is the case.
He claims that people with dyslexia (sometimes aspergian sometimes neurotypical) are sometimes people with aspergian traits (majority aspergian traits) and neurotypical language trait (mixed genes). So he explains that you could have neurotypical traits but be aspergian if the majority of traits are aspergian (look at table end of his book)


That's not true. Dyslexia is linked to the scientific neurodiversity definition. The reason that isolated neurodiverse people primarily communicate verbally is because that is the only way they can get understood by neurotypicals. It's neither their preferred nor their natural way of communicating.

paxfilosoof wrote:
table:
Image


That table is the primary reason why I had to invent the scientific neurodiversity definition. Not even half of these traits are related to neurodiversity, and if I were to rely on such people's opinions of neurodiversity I would get nothing published. In fact, this is just as bad as the labels themselves. You don't just put all your preferred / disliked traits into a collection and label them something. That's the logic behind discrimination and group-think. You need to prove that the traits are related with some objective method before you create labels.

paxfilosoof wrote:
Here he explains in a couple of pages what an aspergian is without going into the neurology and genetics:
http://web.archive.org/web/200810152110 ... ights.org/


I liked that a lot better, but ADHD not related to autism? Is he serious?


I think he mean ADHD causes by alcohol. What ADHD in your neurodiverse definition means is actually just an aspergian individual but wrong diagnosed.
For example: I was diagnosed as having dyslexia and ADHD and later I was diagnosed as having ASS.

I also grow up in a neurodiverse family, rural. I have 3 sisters all in my opinion aspergian but not diagnosed + my twin brother also not diagnosed but definitely aspergian at heart. But my family is for sure very very very verbal. My mother played language games when we were very young. We are for sure verbal in communication but I know what you mean with the neurodiverse nonverbal.

I think you could say that aspergian almost is the same meaning as neurodiverse.

The reason why drew macpherson made a table is to distinguish between an aspergian and a neurotypical person. He made the book for neurotypicals,
and it's written in a way that neurotypicals could understand it. He observed each single thing in isolation and he described it as either aspergian or neurotypical, but in almost all people they're mixed.

It's like this: Homo Sapiens -- Neanderthaler
Large group -- small group
ectomorph -- Mesomorph
eyes closed parthway -- open wide (a trait still sen in the aspergian population today)



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12 Aug 2013, 7:10 am

I'm going to make Drew macpherson's idea easier to understand because I see where everyone is getting trouble in understanding it.
I've studied he's book for over 2 years now, and even looked for the evidence he said in the autism literature.
for example:

Monotropism
psychological - biological spectrum (genetic and the behavioral spectrum)
sensitive environment (which is studied by henry markram, intense world theory 2010)
encompassing and rapid brain development (courshesne or something)
...

I'll post the link soon and I'll explain each single thing he said in different ways so people actually could understand it.



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12 Aug 2013, 7:19 am

I'm going to write the entire book of drew macpherson the way I understand it and I'm sure you'll see what's beautiful in it.
I've read the book now more than 10 times and the first time I really hated the book because it seems to delete a lot of obvious evidence in a neurodiverse perspective.
He has written it for the majority of people because he's trying to defeat the capitalistic society and change it to equilism.
He's now what we call neurotypical psychopath, extremely charming, manipulative, very persistence etc.



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12 Aug 2013, 7:31 am

Let's take each of the claims in the table and analyse them more in depth:

Gluten / Casein sensitivity - TRUE
Social prowess in typical settings - TRUE
Social prowess in geeky settings - TRUE
Number of friends - TRUE (we are more attached to a few people)
Desire for social power - FALSE (the aim of special interest projects are related to reproduction and social "status")
Voice inflection / tonal variance - TRUE (because it describes a neurotypical preference)
Susceptibility of being taken advantage of - TRUE
Gullibility - probably FALSE (have no data on that though)
Literal interpretation, semantics - TRUE
Honesty - FALSE (and proved to be as well)
Childhood / workplace bullying - TRUE
Political interest - FALSE (neurodiverse people tend to be left, neurotypical right wing)
Logical reasoning abilities - FALSE
Verbal communication - partly FALSE
Answering questions - FALSE
Charm - possibly TRUE
Body Type - TRUE
Relative body temperature preference - TRUE
Dwelling preference - TRUE
Metaphore use - possibly TRUE (unresearched)
Engineering skills - FALSE
Physical laziness - FALSE (neurodiverse people require more motivation, ADHD)
Selfishness - TRUE
Eyes - have no idea
Feeling about socially adept people - probably TRUE
Written communication - FALSE (see Dyslexia)
Nonverbal communication - FALSE
Social tendencies - FALSE (neurodiverse people generally prefer to socialize in small groups of known people unless they lack such a group and instead try to socialize with everybody)



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12 Aug 2013, 7:56 am

rdos wrote:
Let's take each of the claims in the table and analyse them more in depth:
Desire for social power - FALSE (the aim of special interest projects are related to reproduction and social "status")
Gullibility - probably FALSE (have no data on that though)
Honesty - FALSE (and proved to be as well)
Political interest - FALSE (neurodiverse people tend to be left, neurotypical right wing)
Logical reasoning abilities - FALSE
Verbal communication - partly FALSE
Answering questions - FALSE
Engineering skills - FALSE
Physical laziness - FALSE (neurodiverse people require more motivation, ADHD)
Eyes - have no idea
Written communication - FALSE (see Dyslexia)
Nonverbal communication - FALSE
Social tendencies - FALSE (neurodiverse people generally prefer to socialize in small groups of known people unless they lack such a group and instead try to socialize with everybody)


1. Desire for social power
With this thread I think he mean this:
No need in having a group of friends but fine with 1-1 communication. It's really best explained by saying that aspergians have no real desire for social power.

2. Gullibility
I think this is obvious in my opinion. That aspergian people are easier deceived or duped. I'm a good example and my aspie friends aswell.

3. Honesty
Very young aspies tend to be very honest. Later they learn to lie and in many cases they become excessive liars (like me).

4. Political interest
What you say is true. But left is unpolitical ;D
Which sounds like a paradox. Left parties are less political in the sense that they don't discriminate, don't try to manipulate (also interpret as political), etc.

5. Logical reasoning abilities
This is associated with political interest, less propaganda etc and more honest logical reasoning. To me it's obvious that aspergians have the typical fair-play mentality (interpret by the author as honest logical reasoning abilities)

6. Verbal communication
What is false about this?

7. Answering questions
What is false about this?

8. Engineering skills
I see a lot that architects, engineers, mechanics, as aspergian.
Good example is Ludwig wittgenstein, was first an engineer, and later a logician.

9. Physical laziness
No, I don't agree. Many sporters have aspergian traits.
They may have problems in group sports, which maybe it the reason why they maybe have more motivation.
But I don't believe that.

10. Eyes
I think this is very recognizable, for example my girlfriend has creepy eyes like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V3M-onCbcc

neanderthaler association:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... hal-brain/
read this article.

11. Written communication

I think this is not false, i'm bad at written communication, but my brother and 3 sisters, mother, father, all are very good in written communication.
Drew macpherson who write the book is insane good in language.

12. Nonverbal communication

I think this is correct in my family and people I know, not sure.

13. Social tendencies
This is definitely an aspergian trait, when 2 people meet for the first time an neurotypical is usually unfriendly, etc.

example:

Consider the following two stereotypical extremes: The first is an upstanding businessman, always well dressed and very keenly versed in etiquette (political). This person exhibits traits of selfishness, greed, jealousy, and an unhealthy need for pride, all with serious repercussions for those around him. He is basically a con artist, a thief, a liar, yet he is very charming and people seem to like and trust him instantly (charming correlates with political). He doesn’t care about other people beyond what they can offer him and he would seriously consider robbing his own mother if she had something he really wanted. He is the perfect salesman. This is an example of a neurotypical psychopath.

The second stereotype doesn’t fit in to society quite as well. He is a strange man who wanders around wearing colours that clash and clothes that look like they are from the 50’s. He has strange mannerisms and speaks in monotone most of the time. He acts friendly enough and graciously raises his porkpie hat to every passer by, saying “Good day to you fine sir”. Most people find him far too creepy and weird to even respond to his pleasantries. He may have genuine goodwill towards others, yet few would invite him over for dinner. Most people don’t trust him and wouldn’t even buy a newspaper from him. If you got to know him, however, you’d realize that he is so generous that he would give you the shirt off his back if he thought it would help you, even to his own detriment. He is willing to sacrifice immediate pain and suffering, his own and others, for what he views as the greater good. This is a problem because not everyone agrees on what is the greater good. Another big problem with him, is that he often says things which, while true and accurate, are hurtful to the feelings of others. He fails to see how white lies are any better than blatant ones. He has no recognition of the reality of how his words affect the emotional suffering of others, and quite possibly doesn’t even care. He is tactless and impolite. He is an autistic psychopath.



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12 Aug 2013, 8:35 am

paxfilosoof wrote:
1. Desire for social power
With this thread I think he mean this:
No need in having a group of friends but fine with 1-1 communication. It's really best explained by saying that aspergians have no real desire for social power.


If he had written it as "dislike hierarchy" or "dislike authority" I'd say TRUE, but it is not true in the context presented. Most of social status in humans and other animals is related to reproduction and males usually want to impress females in order to be able to reproduce, and this is not something that is missing in neurodiverse people. IMHO, special interests have exactly this evolutionary function.

paxfilosoof wrote:
2. Gullibility
I think this is obvious in my opinion. That aspergian people are easier deceived or duped. I'm a good example and my aspie friends aswell.


OK. I wasn't sure about what that meant, but that makes sense. So change that to TRUE

paxfilosoof wrote:
3. Honesty
Very young aspies tend to be very honest. Later they learn to lie and in many cases they become excessive liars (like me).


I happen to be married to a compulsive liar, so I don't accept this as true. :wink:

The lies are usually rather harmless, but that doesn't change the fact that they are lies.

paxfilosoof wrote:
4. Political interest
What you say is true. But left is unpolitical ;D
Which sounds like a paradox. Left parties are less political in the sense that they don't discriminate, don't try to manipulate (also interpret as political), etc.


The left wing seems to appeal to neurodiverse people, but it is rather maladaptive. We should remember that many of the assaults on neurodiverse people have been perpetrated by socialists that don't believe in biological difference between humans. That's why I no longer want to have anything to do with the left wing anymore.

paxfilosoof wrote:
5. Logical reasoning abilities
This is associated with political interest, less propaganda etc and more honest logical reasoning. To me it's obvious that aspergians have the typical fair-play mentality (interpret by the author as honest logical reasoning abilities)


I dismissed this in Attwoods "Aspie criteria" a while back. It is not correlated to neurodiversity to any meaningful extent.

paxfilosoof wrote:
6. Verbal communication
What is false about this?


In short: Dyslexia. Dyslexia is more common in neurodiverse people than in neurotypical. Even if I don't have any Dyslexia diagnosis (neither any other), I identify as partly dyslectic. When Dyslexia is positively correlated to neurodiversity it cannot be true that perfect grammar is also correlated to neurodiversity. And just because pedantic traits are related to neurodiversity, doesn't need to mean that everything neurodiverse people do is pedantic and perfectly done. There is a big difference between intent and actual ability.

paxfilosoof wrote:

7. Answering questions
What is false about this?


The claim about semantic literal and true response. As for myself, I often can answer such questions with totally false explanations because I enjoy checking if people are alert. I only tend to do that with other neurodiverse people, and not with neurotypical. If they happen to not understand that I gave them the wrong answer, I'll point it out. So, no, that definitely doesn't match my experience.

paxfilosoof wrote:
8. Engineering skills
I see a lot that architects, engineers, mechanics, as aspergian.
Good example is Ludwig wittgenstein, was first an engineer, and later a logician.


Yes, but these are related to splinter-skills that aren't universals. But it is correct that this is more common in neurodiversity, so with that definition, OK, make that TRUE.

paxfilosoof wrote:
9. Physical laziness
No, I don't agree. Many sporters have aspergian traits.
They may have problems in group sports, which maybe it the reason why they maybe have more motivation.
But I don't believe that.


The thing is that this only applies to strong interests. It doesn't apply to boring things we have no interest in, like tidying up and things like that. So, no, this is definitely FALSE in the broader context.

paxfilosoof wrote:

11. Written communication

I think this is not false, i'm bad at written communication, but my brother and 3 sisters, mother, father, all are very good in written communication.
Drew macpherson who write the book is insane good in language.



For the same reason above about Dyslexia, this cannot be positively correlated to neurodiversity. In fact, the native rules of language and grammar are neurotypical in nature, and this is the reason why some LFA children cannot acquire language at all.


paxfilosoof wrote:

12. Nonverbal communication

I think this is correct in my family and people I know, not sure.


It is only correct if the claim is changed to specifically refer to neurotypical nonverbal communication. Otherwise it is FALSE.

paxfilosoof wrote:

13. Social tendencies
This is definitely an aspergian trait, when 2 people meet for the first time an neurotypical is usually unfriendly, etc.


Yes, I agree with that observation, but I fear it might be tainted with the neurodiverse person not understanding how to make initial contact. In fact, as I've learned how to "blend-in", I also tend to mostly meet friendly neurotypical people. So I think it is FALSE.



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12 Aug 2013, 8:47 am

rdos wrote:
paxfilosoof wrote:
1. Desire for social power
With this thread I think he mean this:
No need in having a group of friends but fine with 1-1 communication. It's really best explained by saying that aspergians have no real desire for social power.


If he had written it as "dislike hierarchy" or "dislike authority" I'd say TRUE, but it is not true in the context presented. Most of social status in humans and other animals is related to reproduction and males usually want to impress females in order to be able to reproduce, and this is not something that is missing in neurodiverse people. IMHO, special interests have exactly this evolutionary function.

paxfilosoof wrote:
2. Gullibility
I think this is obvious in my opinion. That aspergian people are easier deceived or duped. I'm a good example and my aspie friends aswell.


OK. I wasn't sure about what that meant, but that makes sense. So change that to TRUE

paxfilosoof wrote:
3. Honesty
Very young aspies tend to be very honest. Later they learn to lie and in many cases they become excessive liars (like me).


I happen to be married to a compulsive liar, so I don't accept this as true. :wink:

The lies are usually rather harmless, but that doesn't change the fact that they are lies.

paxfilosoof wrote:
4. Political interest
What you say is true. But left is unpolitical ;D
Which sounds like a paradox. Left parties are less political in the sense that they don't discriminate, don't try to manipulate (also interpret as political), etc.


The left wing seems to appeal to neurodiverse people, but it is rather maladaptive. We should remember that many of the assaults on neurodiverse people have been perpetrated by socialists that don't believe in biological difference between humans. That's why I no longer want to have anything to do with the left wing anymore.

paxfilosoof wrote:
5. Logical reasoning abilities
This is associated with political interest, less propaganda etc and more honest logical reasoning. To me it's obvious that aspergians have the typical fair-play mentality (interpret by the author as honest logical reasoning abilities)


I dismissed this in Attwoods "Aspie criteria" a while back. It is not correlated to neurodiversity to any meaningful extent.

paxfilosoof wrote:
6. Verbal communication
What is false about this?


In short: Dyslexia. Dyslexia is more common in neurodiverse people than in neurotypical. Even if I don't have any Dyslexia diagnosis (neither any other), I identify as partly dyslectic. When Dyslexia is positively correlated to neurodiversity it cannot be true that perfect grammar is also correlated to neurodiversity. And just because pedantic traits are related to neurodiversity, doesn't need to mean that everything neurodiverse people do is pedantic and perfectly done. There is a big difference between intent and actual ability.

paxfilosoof wrote:

7. Answering questions
What is false about this?


The claim about semantic literal and true response. As for myself, I often can answer such questions with totally false explanations because I enjoy checking if people are alert. I only tend to do that with other neurodiverse people, and not with neurotypical. If they happen to not understand that I gave them the wrong answer, I'll point it out. So, no, that definitely doesn't match my experience.

paxfilosoof wrote:
8. Engineering skills
I see a lot that architects, engineers, mechanics, as aspergian.
Good example is Ludwig wittgenstein, was first an engineer, and later a logician.


Yes, but these are related to splinter-skills that aren't universals. But it is correct that this is more common in neurodiversity, so with that definition, OK, make that TRUE.

paxfilosoof wrote:
9. Physical laziness
No, I don't agree. Many sporters have aspergian traits.
They may have problems in group sports, which maybe it the reason why they maybe have more motivation.
But I don't believe that.


The thing is that this only applies to strong interests. It doesn't apply to boring things we have no interest in, like tidying up and things like that. So, no, this is definitely FALSE in the broader context.

paxfilosoof wrote:

11. Written communication

I think this is not false, i'm bad at written communication, but my brother and 3 sisters, mother, father, all are very good in written communication.
Drew macpherson who write the book is insane good in language.



For the same reason above about Dyslexia, this cannot be positively correlated to neurodiversity. In fact, the native rules of language and grammar are neurotypical in nature, and this is the reason why some LFA children cannot acquire language at all.


paxfilosoof wrote:

12. Nonverbal communication

I think this is correct in my family and people I know, not sure.


It is only correct if the claim is changed to specifically refer to neurotypical nonverbal communication. Otherwise it is FALSE.

paxfilosoof wrote:

13. Social tendencies
This is definitely an aspergian trait, when 2 people meet for the first time an neurotypical is usually unfriendly, etc.


Yes, I agree with that observation, but I fear it might be tainted with the neurodiverse person not understanding how to make initial contact. In fact, as I've learned how to "blend-in", I also tend to mostly meet friendly neurotypical people. So I think it is FALSE.


Very interesting.
I want to explain something about lies.
Many aspies tend to be very naïve, and honest at a young age (biological spectrum, genetics) and later compulsive liar (psychological spectrum).
So it may can look like that aspergian trait a neurotypical when in fact it's a aspergian DNA trait. That's why I think Drew macpherson introduced a biological and psychological spectrum:

Biological Spectrum Value (Position): A loosely-defined quantitative measure of where on the psychological spectrum a person falls at birth. Psychological spectrum value can change throughout a person’s life, particularly during childhood, as a result of social conditioning. The biological spectrum value is dictated by genetic inheritance. By looking at the bloodlines of relatives, or better yet at a newborn child’s behaviour can help to gauge an individual’s biological spectrum value.

For example: As a child I was very interested in sports like tennis, football, basketball, running, making traps, but when I grow older I became a computer nerd and science nerd because of bullying and problems with other people at sports. But like the mesomorphic body type is more build for sports and industrious activities I think their is no doubt about it that aspergers are less lazy.



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12 Aug 2013, 9:29 am

paxfilosoof wrote:
I want to explain something about lies.
Many aspies tend to be very naïve, and honest at a young age (biological spectrum, genetics) and later compulsive liar (psychological spectrum).
So it may can look like that aspergian trait a neurotypical when in fact it's a aspergian DNA trait. That's why I think Drew macpherson introduced a biological and psychological spectrum:


I think it might be realistic that compulsive liars could be the effect of social conditioning, but seeing how it is obviously inherited in one of my children but not the other, I have my doubts. In this study with n=4 it is more related to ADHD-traits.

paxfilosoof wrote:
For example: As a child I was very interested in sports like tennis, football, basketball, running, making traps, but when I grow older I became a computer nerd and science nerd because of bullying and problems with other people at sports. But like the mesomorphic body type is more build for sports and industrious activities I think their is no doubt about it that aspergers are less lazy.


I'm like you. I like to be active and always do things, and I also know other neurodiverse people that are the same. However, I also know neurodiverse people that would rather take the car and drive 50 metres than to walk. So, in my observation it is not clean-cut how this actually works. It would need further research with a larger sample. Incidentally, with my sample of n=4 this issue is also related to ADHD-traits.



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12 Aug 2013, 9:46 am

rdos wrote:
paxfilosoof wrote:
I want to explain something about lies.
Many aspies tend to be very naïve, and honest at a young age (biological spectrum, genetics) and later compulsive liar (psychological spectrum).
So it may can look like that aspergian trait a neurotypical when in fact it's a aspergian DNA trait. That's why I think Drew macpherson introduced a biological and psychological spectrum:


I think it might be realistic that compulsive liars could be the effect of social conditioning, but seeing how it is obviously inherited in one of my children but not the other, I have my doubts. In this study with n=4 it is more related to ADHD-traits.

paxfilosoof wrote:
For example: As a child I was very interested in sports like tennis, football, basketball, running, making traps, but when I grow older I became a computer nerd and science nerd because of bullying and problems with other people at sports. But like the mesomorphic body type is more build for sports and industrious activities I think their is no doubt about it that aspergers are less lazy.


I'm like you. I like to be active and always do things, and I also know other neurodiverse people that are the same. However, I also know neurodiverse people that would rather take the car and drive 50 metres than to walk. So, in my observation it is not clean-cut how this actually works. It would need further research with a larger sample. Incidentally, with my sample of n=4 this issue is also related to ADHD-traits.


Yes I see. Let me explain it a little bit better and I think you can understand my point easier.

Let me introduce the concept of imbalance:


Control Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to control a situation. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to survive life threatening situations by stimulating the mind and body to act quickly and powerfully.

Deprivation Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to consume. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to correct dietary deficiencies in order to avoid malnutrition and survive.

Escape Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to escape from a situation. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to create a fantasy world in order to mentally survive intolerably painful situations which cannot be escaped physically at the time and must be endured.

Image

My father is like me. He was good at sports, active, mesomorphic. Because of work problems (stress), he developed control imbalance.
and deprivation imbalance. He started to eat more for stress reasons and drinking alcohol for coping with his control imbalance.
But still I consider him more active as neurotypicals because he developped easier deprivation imbalance.

Sorry it's hard to explain. I'm going to re-write the book of Drew macpherson and I'll send you the link.



rdos
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12 Aug 2013, 11:59 am

paxfilosoof wrote:
Control Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to control a situation. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to survive life threatening situations by stimulating the mind and body to act quickly and powerfully.

Deprivation Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to consume. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to correct dietary deficiencies in order to avoid malnutrition and survive.

Escape Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to escape from a situation. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to create a fantasy world in order to mentally survive intolerably painful situations which cannot be escaped physically at the time and must be endured.


Yes, but these are environmental issues unrelated to neurodiversity. One of the goals in Aspie Quiz was to eliminate all of these as they are not neurodiversity-traits, although some of them are correlated anyhow because of a bad environment.

For instance, I'm sure that deprivation balance is fairly common in neurodiversity just because of deprivation, which is a good term that explains depression in a much better way. I'm sure that obsessive traits are also partly environmental, but that is harder to show.



paxfilosoof
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12 Aug 2013, 2:13 pm

rdos wrote:
paxfilosoof wrote:
Control Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to control a situation. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to survive life threatening situations by stimulating the mind and body to act quickly and powerfully.

Deprivation Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to consume. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to correct dietary deficiencies in order to avoid malnutrition and survive.

Escape Imbalance: Arises from a stimulus that triggers a powerful instinctual reaction resulting in an obsessive need to escape from a situation. The evolutionary reason for this type of imbalance is to create a fantasy world in order to mentally survive intolerably painful situations which cannot be escaped physically at the time and must be endured.


Yes, but these are environmental issues unrelated to neurodiversity. One of the goals in Aspie Quiz was to eliminate all of these as they are not neurodiversity-traits, although some of them are correlated anyhow because of a bad environment.

For instance, I'm sure that deprivation balance is fairly common in neurodiversity just because of deprivation, which is a good term that explains depression in a much better way. I'm sure that obsessive traits are also partly environmental, but that is harder to show.


Indeed they are meant environmental, they are as common in neurotypical as in aspergians. For example deprivation imbalance is common in obese people (and in many more people). The reason is because our genome is not adapted to refrigerators. And recent studies shows that fasting for a couple of days [not too long ;)] can be healthy and you feel that it is naturally. I stopped eating a week ago for 2 days, it was difficult but it felt good :D
You start to understand why deprivation is associated with greed :P
after 1 day of eating nothing everything you see in the environment is danger, because your instincs are so strong to just grap some food here and there.

Small correlations could exist but it's not important anyway. It's really individually, I have deprivation imbalances, 1 sister of me has control imbalance, and my brother has escape imbalance (addicted to manga etc).

I post on this as soon as I write the book in a more new light.



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08 Oct 2013, 3:37 pm

Rdo,
to the creator of this post, i really do not understand why people like you accept the fact that you is smarter than neuro-average-typical people and don't accept the fact that other people like subsaharian africans TEND TO BE les smart than other people. Other observation, moral observation that i make about your text. The people that investigated about the obviously racial discrepances in intelligence, personality and civilizational achievments during the XIX and XX centuries, wasn't dumb or politically motivated, only scientifically motivated. The ''father'' of human rights, the american president Benjamin Franklin and one of the most important scientist ever, Charles Darwin, the both would be labelled racist accord actual social rules.
I believe that science can be divided an two types, investigation of obvious things and discover or invent new things. Is very old the observations of human biology and their differences and not only the europeans that observe that some people are less capable to create civilization like other. This is very old.
The amazing discovery about the neanderthal genetics and your geographic distribution is a new evidence suggest many ''politically incorrect'' things like, existence of ''races'' or human groups (sub species), the existence of their personality and intelligence differences and the biological explanations about the poverty in Africa, civilization achievments in Europe and higher general intelligence of northern asians. Explain all facts, why africans was enslaved by europeans and arabs and not the contrary, why blacks tend to be more agressive and less smart than other races, why in my country, the rich and smart people tend to be light skinned and the ''favelas'' people tend to be darker.
The ''racist'' people like you say probably also are belong to neurodiversity, not only in non-neurotypicals that there is, but so also in a neurotypical population. Many people dislike other people that aren't their own races, is necessary respect the choices and thoughts about this people. But many of them are very rational. Actually, the ''white nations'' are change to melting pot of races and cultures and it is not good because also, white people have very low fertility and many are mixed with other races. Even this, there a media culture based in white guilty and ''celebrate the diversity'', but can't celebrate your own heritages and can't disprove the immigration politics, like in Sweden, that impose to own people, massive immigration that turn this norse country in a land with higher rape rates, violence against native people and growing hostility of the immigrants immigrants. The Sweden is one of the most socialist and culturally marxist country and your way of life will change if they continue to accept many immigrants. The liberalism is the opposite of islam and the traditional third world cultures.
White supremacists are part of great human fauna like us, neurodiverse people, they also belong. I will be happy if white nationalists can have your country and the asperger and people biologically correlated also can your space in a true democratic and progressive society.
Rushton was dead, was one of the most important scientist at end of XX century and beggin of this. Please, more respect by scientist that in the future will be your Nobel prize.
You need change your strategy and accept the true. Only with true we will can resolve all problems of humanity. When we deny the reality of races and their cognitive differences, we sign the death sentence to millions and millions of african, asian and latin american childrens.



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08 Oct 2013, 4:18 pm

:roll:

The history of science is rife with cases of people who tried to force their prejudices into the data to make the world fit the theory.

People who believe in race are idiots who seize on tiny fragments of data to help shore up their fantasies about other people while willfully ignoring the vast oceans of data that disprove their sad, stupid theories.

It isn't worth discussing points with such people because they are willfully blind to all inconvenient evidence. I do sometimes find myself having eugenicist fantasies about them, though--maybe if we could just sterilize and liquidate all the racists, the world would be a better place... Perhaps the salafists and tea party nitwits and aryan nations nincompoops and their ilk are the product of some ghastly mutation we could test for and then cleanse away--and then I realize that idea is as silly as all the drivel these people trade in.



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15 Oct 2013, 1:05 pm

Adamantium wrote:
:roll:

The history of science is rife with cases of people who tried to force their prejudices into the data to make the world fit the theory.

People who believe in race are idiots who seize on tiny fragments of data to help shore up their fantasies about other people while willfully ignoring the vast oceans of data that disprove their sad, stupid theories.

It isn't worth discussing points with such people because they are willfully blind to all inconvenient evidence. I do sometimes find myself having eugenicist fantasies about them, though--maybe if we could just sterilize and liquidate all the racists, the world would be a better place... Perhaps the salafists and tea party nitwits and aryan nations nincompoops and their ilk are the product of some ghastly mutation we could test for and then cleanse away--and then I realize that idea is as silly as all the drivel these people trade in.


Stupid people will are the only survivors in the near future, while the abstract morally superior as you will be blotted out of the map, good for the earth, good for the Africans, good for Asians, sorry dear. Good for all the people who can not feel their emotions Abstract cheap.
For people racist , no matter if you guys had supposedly gotten any evidence to support its theory false because they just do not want to live with people who are racially different from them . You , as a person supposed to be democratic as it says , should understand that not only aspies needing respect of society , but also those who aspire to maintain your lifestyle. Pushing mass immigration from third world that I live every day, for all the people of the U.S. and Europe, is the most vile action that i see in the end of the century , especially when those people are not asked if they would like it. Are being exposed to all sorts of social chaos and conflict. Especially aspies , who are extremely vulnerable .
While you supposedly advocates for the cause aspie , you 're blatantly lying , first , by its intransigence towards people who think differently from you ( denying the very central main of the autism cause that is the difference ) and second , by simply denying that people within the autism spectrum , much more exposed to all sorts of hostile behavior , especially originated by low IQS third world .
I agree with you that problematic people should be sterilized , when I refer to issues I speak of bad people, regardless of race. This includes the useful idiots like you.
I do no understand why you use the example of salafist, you believe in CNN???
The unique only problem of peace in Middle Eastern called Israel.