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rdos
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20 Feb 2012, 3:06 am

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Bushmen sneak up on their prey, as do leopards in the African plains. And I read that Homo erectus already used pitfalls to trap large animals. Our African H. sapiens ancestors, being descendants of H. erectus, would have done the same.


Quite beside the point. First, I propose the divergence of neurodiversity and neurotypical traits happened as Homo erectus formed (which means we expect such evidence in Eurasia in Homo erectus). Second, trapping was not proposed by Geist, but it correlates with the other traits, and thus have a common origin (Neanderthal). Third, Bush men hunt in the traditional way (I know since I read a book about them).

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Btw, H. sapiens started using atlatls (spearthrowers) about 30,000 years ago. An atlatl can cast a spear over a distance of 100 meters at a speed of 150 km/h,


The hybrid population invented this, not modern humans. I also know about atlatls, as I have one myself and can throw about 100 meters with it.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
so there is no need to sneak up close. H. sapiens were vastly superior hunters compared to H. neanderthalensis and had nothing to gain from them in terms of hunting skills. The only real benefit of interbreeding was a stronger immune system.


You'd wish.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
There is definitely a loss of function. Quote from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... brain.html

Quote:
In children with the gene (a gene that has been linked to autism and AS), the brain's frontal lobe, which plays a key role in learning, is poorly linked to the rest of the brain, the journal Science Translational Medicine reports.
Researcher Ashley Scott-Van Zeeland said: 'In children who carry the risk gene, the front of the brain seems to mainly talk to itself.
'It doesn't communicate as much with other parts of the brain and lacks long-range connections to the back of the brain.'
There were also fewer connections between the frontal lobe and the left side of the brain, which is key to speech and understanding language.


Besides, common symptoms of AS include clumsiness, problems with hand-eye coordination, and balance problems. This also indicates a loss of function and is certainly not very advantageous for a hunter.


These are not loss of function. They are lack of neurotypical function. OTOH, you didn't read well. The argument about not being loss of function related to stims, hunting traits and sensory issues, not to Dyspraxia.

Additionally, Dyspraxia is not related to Aspie hunting (as we expect), but to neurotypical perception. Perception since we are talking about traits that are necesary for distance hunting. All these can be summarized as: Ability to judge distance, speed and acceleration. They have nothing to do with motor problems, they are perception issues.



Dillogic
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20 Feb 2012, 3:24 am

I like hunting. I practice my stalking skills by trying to sneak up on the wallabies that live in the hills here (I used to practice on my old horse). It's very, very and very hard to get within arm distance, even with all the trees.

I hunt the occasional feral animal that moves through the property, though with a firearm (albeit, I limit myself to a short ranged shotgun slug to make it a little more fair in comparison to a scoped bolt-rifle). Pretty easy to get within 50 meters, even against wild dogs.

Just an anecdote (there's people with an ASD out there that hunt).



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20 Feb 2012, 4:07 am

I built a bow and arrows as a very small child without knowledge specifically how to do so. I just had seen them somewhere and became obsessed with duplicating it, and used only materials found in my backyard, of natural formation. Ie. Tree, plant, rock, etc. It took some time, but the final product was most certainly lethal, and rather accurate. This constituted my typical idea of "play" as a child. I was either attempting to build things, or tearing things apart to learn how they were built.

On the elementary school playground, the only "social" game I played was tetherball, and only because maintaining the ball in a perfect spin so as to be impossible for my opponent to even touch it was rather fun. But I almost exclusively sat right outside the class doorway with a book and read. Oh, and there was a bit of a stint were I was breaking open rocks I suspected to be geodes. (I even found a few) I felt the activities of the other kids to be pointless and perplexing.

Whether this has anything to do with Autism, Neanderthals, or anything else, I'm unsure. Just anecdotal.


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CrazyCatLord
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20 Feb 2012, 4:49 am

rdos wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Bushmen sneak up on their prey, as do leopards in the African plains. And I read that Homo erectus already used pitfalls to trap large animals. Our African H. sapiens ancestors, being descendants of H. erectus, would have done the same.


Quite beside the point. First, I propose the divergence of neurodiversity and neurotypical traits happened as Homo erectus formed (which means we expect such evidence in Eurasia in Homo erectus). Second, trapping was not proposed by Geist, but it correlates with the other traits, and thus have a common origin (Neanderthal). Third, Bush men hunt in the traditional way (I know since I read a book about them).


African Homo erectus trapped elephants in pitfalls. Eurasian populations might have perfected this technique -- a little too much, seeing that elephants were wiped out in the Middle East 400k years ago -- but they did not invent trapping.

Bushmen use hills and tall grass in the African savannah as cover when creeping up on prey animals (see "Bushmen in a Victorian world" by Andrew Bank). Your previous statement "Sneaking doesn't work on an open plain, and neither does trapping" was patently wrong. The African plains are not just scorched earth, as you can see in the photo below. There is enough cover to stalk prey, and digging pitfalls should be a lot easier than in densely rooted forest soil.

Image

Quote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Btw, H. sapiens started using atlatls (spearthrowers) about 30,000 years ago. An atlatl can cast a spear over a distance of 100 meters at a speed of 150 km/h,


The hybrid population invented this, not modern humans. I also know about atlatls, as I have one myself and can throw about 100 meters with it.


I concede on this point. 30k years ago, Neanderthals were already extinct, so you are correct that there would have been an Eurasian hybrid population at that point.

Quote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
so there is no need to sneak up close. H. sapiens were vastly superior hunters compared to H. neanderthalensis and had nothing to gain from them in terms of hunting skills. The only real benefit of interbreeding was a stronger immune system.


You'd wish.


That's not what I wish but what I read in all articles about sapiens-Neanderthal hybridization that I've come across. None of them mentioned any benefits for modern humans beyond greater resistance to Eurasian diseases. But of course you know better.

Quote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
There is definitely a loss of function. Quote from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... brain.html

Quote:
In children with the gene (a gene that has been linked to autism and AS), the brain's frontal lobe, which plays a key role in learning, is poorly linked to the rest of the brain, the journal Science Translational Medicine reports.
Researcher Ashley Scott-Van Zeeland said: 'In children who carry the risk gene, the front of the brain seems to mainly talk to itself.
'It doesn't communicate as much with other parts of the brain and lacks long-range connections to the back of the brain.'
There were also fewer connections between the frontal lobe and the left side of the brain, which is key to speech and understanding language.


Besides, common symptoms of AS include clumsiness, problems with hand-eye coordination, and balance problems. This also indicates a loss of function and is certainly not very advantageous for a hunter.


These are not loss of function. They are lack of neurotypical function. OTOH, you didn't read well. The argument about not being loss of function related to stims, hunting traits and sensory issues, not to Dyspraxia.

Additionally, Dyspraxia is not related to Aspie hunting (as we expect), but to neurotypical perception. Perception since we are talking about traits that are necesary for distance hunting. All these can be summarized as: Ability to judge distance, speed and acceleration. They have nothing to do with motor problems, they are perception issues.


Dyspraxia also affects coordination of movements. Autistics often have difficulties tying shoelaces and executing other simple motor tasks. Heck, I have problems walking in a straight line or pouring myself a cup of coffee. I would make an awful hunter :)

Besides, the Eurasian H. sapiens was a distance hunter, as evidenced by the use of atlatls. Which means that autistic traits would have been a disadvantage even if it was just a perception issue.



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20 Feb 2012, 4:58 am

lightening020 wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Besides, common symptoms of AS include clumsiness, problems with hand-eye coordination, and balance problems. This also indicates a loss of function and is certainly not very advantageous for a hunter.


How do you define clumsiness? If you compare it to NT's, it is clumsiness. If you think about the implications of the theory that this guy has proposed, a whole new level of possibilities in understanding change.

What if all of the traditional ways in which sports and PE are taught don't have the same effect on kids on the spectrum? What if the everything in school is meant towards NT kids, but just doesn't help with kids on the spectrum in the way that it is supposed to?

What if kids on the spectrum could be just as strong or even stronger if things like PE sports and weightlifting were done in a different way?

What if people on the spectrum actually turned out to be kickass hunters if they learned how and got the chance? I'm willing to bet most people on this board live in suburban or urban areas, not the traditional south or midwest or even northern USA where hunting is prevalent.


Clumsiness = poor motor coordination. When I'm walking, I sometimes concentrate so much on my feet that I drop the things that I'm carrying. I can't drive a car because I can't coordinate my hands and feet, and I have a tendency to run into things and knock things over. I also have a very slow reaction speed. I doubt that this would be different if I had any special kind of training.



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20 Feb 2012, 6:12 am

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Clumsiness = poor motor coordination. When I'm walking, I sometimes concentrate so much on my feet that I drop the things that I'm carrying. I can't drive a car because I can't coordinate my hands and feet, and I have a tendency to run into things and knock things over. I also have a very slow reaction speed. I doubt that this would be different if I had any special kind of training.


I have naturally poor coordination. Quite bad, really. Most any attempt I've made to do some form of physical activity or maneuver for the first time, or to do so in a dynamic fashion is met with horrible disaster.

BUT, when my movements are static, and can be rehearsed, I am incredibly agile. I use a host of preprogrammed maneuvers to interact and move throughout the day to day activities required of me. Words used by observers to describe my movements have included; graceful, precise, efficient, robotic, preternatural, agile, calculated, conscious. But I'm often described while doing dynamic motions as; clumsy, uncoordinated, slow, etc. I don't have an in between.

I've speculated that others on the spectrum may be similar, but that has no basis in reality, as I've not really discussed this topic before, and haven't met anyone I've known to be on the spectrum in person.

My point though, is that in my own experience, I am only clumsy when I cannot train for the motion in advance. So specialized training in this regard helps me immensely, and it might help you as well.


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rdos
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20 Feb 2012, 7:43 am

CrazyCatLord wrote:
That's not what I wish but what I read in all articles about sapiens-Neanderthal hybridization that I've come across. None of them mentioned any benefits for modern humans beyond greater resistance to Eurasian diseases. But of course you know better.


That's because this is the current state of findings. Nobody has examined anything outside of that domain, and thus nobody can find it either.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Dyspraxia also affects coordination of movements. Autistics often have difficulties tying shoelaces and executing other simple motor tasks.


Yes, the necesary coordination for throwing things with precision. This was not required in the Neanderthal version of hunting, so either devolved or was not present to begin with.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Heck, I have problems walking in a straight line or pouring myself a cup of coffee. I would make an awful hunter :)


As I've already pointed out, close combat hunting didn't require those traits. It doesn't require throwing things with precision. It doesn't need coordinating different parts of the body.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Besides, the Eurasian H. sapiens was a distance hunter, as evidenced by the use of atlatls. Which means that autistic traits would have been a disadvantage even if it was just a perception issue.


Not before modern humans. There is no evidence of atlatls or spears for throwing in the Neanderthal context.



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20 Feb 2012, 9:08 am

rdos wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
"]Dyspraxia also affects coordination of movements. Autistics often have difficulties tying shoelaces and executing other simple motor tasks.


Yes, the necesary coordination for throwing things with precision. This was not required in the Neanderthal version of hunting, so either devolved or was not present to begin with.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Heck, I have problems walking in a straight line or pouring myself a cup of coffee. I would make an awful hunter :)


As I've already pointed out, close combat hunting didn't require those traits. It doesn't require throwing things with precision. It doesn't need coordinating different parts of the body.


Of course Neanderthals were hopelessly clumsy :roll:

Totally flawed logic.

Cats, for instance, do not throw spears and do do close combat hunting yet one could hardly claim they are clumsy creatures, so why Neanderthals?



rdos
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20 Feb 2012, 10:02 am

nemorosa wrote:
Cats, for instance, do not throw spears and do do close combat hunting yet one could hardly claim they are clumsy creatures, so why Neanderthals?


Cats are clumsy according to the human norm because they cannot throw spears. :roll:



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20 Feb 2012, 11:26 am

rdos wrote:
nemorosa wrote:
Cats, for instance, do not throw spears and do do close combat hunting yet one could hardly claim they are clumsy creatures, so why Neanderthals?


Cats are clumsy according to the human norm because they cannot throw spears. :roll:


So you're redefined clumsy to mean "unable to throw a spear"? Incredible. Good luck getting that into the Oxford English.

It is baffling that you cannot admit when you have made obvious errors. You cling on to the most tenuous links in the face of all evidence and reason because you are so enamoured with your theory.

1. The "aspie hunter" doesn't hold any water because all modern humans and Neanderthals hunt(ed), using tracking, sneaking and traps.

2. All children leap over things.

3. Spinning just makes you dizzy.

4. Neanderthals needn't have been clumsy and uncoordinated. You think it was handy being clumsy whilst attempting to skewer a deer or wild boar with your mates? "Oh, sorry Stig just took out your eye, better luck next time?"



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20 Feb 2012, 4:10 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Clumsiness = poor motor coordination. When I'm walking, I sometimes concentrate so much on my feet that I drop the things that I'm carrying. I can't drive a car because I can't coordinate my hands and feet, and I have a tendency to run into things and knock things over. I also have a very slow reaction speed. I doubt that this would be different if I had any special kind of training.


Again this is all from NT perception. You me and everyone else here has tried moving, talking, and behaving based on what other people are doing. Not because it is natural.

Cars were invented some 30,000 years after the Neanders went, so it wouldn't be a natural skillset. I think alot of it has to with anxiety, I wasn't a very good driver when I first started. The motor skills I had to work for a long time, and I'm still not the best driver.



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20 Feb 2012, 4:34 pm

lightening020 wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Clumsiness = poor motor coordination. When I'm walking, I sometimes concentrate so much on my feet that I drop the things that I'm carrying. I can't drive a car because I can't coordinate my hands and feet, and I have a tendency to run into things and knock things over. I also have a very slow reaction speed. I doubt that this would be different if I had any special kind of training.


Again this is all from NT perception. You me and everyone else here has tried moving, talking, and behaving based on what other people are doing. Not because it is natural.


I didn't learn to do dishes by observing others. I did what feels natural. I actually was never taught this skill growing up.

That doesn't change that I'll at times literally drop a knife onto myself. This not just holding a knife and something I'm cutting wrong and hitting my finger.

I have a very weak propioceptive sense. I don't know how my muscles are moving or where I am in space. Rather than just my body working different, this is actually a hyposensitivity in me.

Also the descriptions of dyspraxia in here aren't very accurate. Dyspraxia isn't a perception issue (though not being able to identify distances makes it worse). Dyspraxia is your body not doing what you'd expect the mind to be doing so. I logically can say all of how to go through a complicated series of events, and my body won't follow my directions.

(As for spinning, it has been theorized that people who enjoy spinning do it because they want vestibular input)



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20 Feb 2012, 4:37 pm

nemorosa wrote:
rdos wrote:
nemorosa wrote:
Cats, for instance, do not throw spears and do do close combat hunting yet one could hardly claim they are clumsy creatures, so why Neanderthals?


Cats are clumsy according to the human norm because they cannot throw spears. :roll:


So you're redefined clumsy to mean "unable to throw a spear"? Incredible. Good luck getting that into the Oxford English.

It is baffling that you cannot admit when you have made obvious errors. You cling on to the most tenuous links in the face of all evidence and reason because you are so enamoured with your theory.

1. The "aspie hunter" doesn't hold any water because all modern humans and Neanderthals hunt(ed), using tracking, sneaking and traps.

2. All children leap over things.

3. Spinning just makes you dizzy.

4. Neanderthals needn't have been clumsy and uncoordinated. You think it was handy being clumsy whilst attempting to skewer a deer or wild boar with your mates? "Oh, sorry Stig just took out your eye, better luck next time?"



It's OK, mate - we are just as human as NTs are. I don't believe a word of this Neanderthal BS and I'm getting sick of these stupid threads keep popping up every week.


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20 Feb 2012, 5:14 pm

Let's see.......

Since being DXed with AS and joining this forum I've been an Indigo Child, a "fox spirit," and now, a caveman.

What next?

*sigh*


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20 Feb 2012, 6:08 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Let's see.......

Since being DXed with AS and joining this forum I've been an Indigo Child, a "fox spirit," and now, a caveman.

What next?

*sigh*


Hey, I hadn't heard about the "fox spirit" one. Sounds.....interesting :lol:



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20 Feb 2012, 7:31 pm

rdos wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Dyspraxia also affects coordination of movements. Autistics often have difficulties tying shoelaces and executing other simple motor tasks.


Yes, the necesary coordination for throwing things with precision. This was not required in the Neanderthal version of hunting, so either devolved or was not present to begin with.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Heck, I have problems walking in a straight line or pouring myself a cup of coffee. I would make an awful hunter :)


As I've already pointed out, close combat hunting didn't require those traits. It doesn't require throwing things with precision. It doesn't need coordinating different parts of the body.


They still had to be able to charge without accidentally dropping their spear or bumping into trees, and to thrust a spear without losing their balance.

All of that would be quite a challenge for me. I might even hold the spear the wrong way around :) But that might be just me. What I'm trying to say is that all of these things require motor coordination of all extremities, as well as accurate depth perception (at least on a short distance).

Quote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Besides, the Eurasian H. sapiens was a distance hunter, as evidenced by the use of atlatls. Which means that autistic traits would have been a disadvantage even if it was just a perception issue.


Not before modern humans. There is no evidence of atlatls or spears for throwing in the Neanderthal context.


So if Neanderthals were clumsy close combat hunters, and pre-hybridization H. sapiens weren't distance hunters either, how did the Neanderthal genome turn Eurasian H. sapiens populations into skilled distance hunters with outstanding hand-eye coordination?