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rdos
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19 Feb 2012, 5:08 am

Not yet done with the detailed description, but here is a prerequisite to understanding it:
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/NeanderthalParadigm.html

Note that this is published in the peer-reviewed literature in the 70s already.

This blog entry I made a year ago is a good starting point: http://blog.rdos.net/?p=61



nemorosa
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19 Feb 2012, 5:51 am

Well, like I've already said in the other thread pretty much all the hunting skills (tracking, sneaking, trapping etc) apply to all hunters whether Neanderthal or not, and are not unique in any way. The other points you raise - jumping, spinning and hanging upside down are just plain silly.



rdos
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19 Feb 2012, 6:45 am

nemorosa wrote:
Well, like I've already said in the other thread pretty much all the hunting skills (tracking, sneaking, trapping etc) apply to all hunters whether Neanderthal or not, and are not unique in any way.


Not so. As Valerius points out, modern humans are "the desert people", and have adapted a hunting tactic that works on open plains. Sneaking doesn't work on an open plain, and neither does trapping. These are not adaptations in modern humans, as they had no value in their habitat.

Then you make the common mistake to assume that any type of traits we see in modern hunters are human universals that evolved with modern humans, which is just faulty logic on your part, It does not follow that because modern hunters use all type of tactics that these are universals, or evolved in our species. We expect those traits to be part of today's hunting activities because we are a Neanderthal hybrid.

Additionally, these traits today are only losely coupled with neurodiversity, and have deluted more into the general population than many other neurodiversity traits. Still, they are correlated with each others and with neurodiversity, which proves the point they are not "human universals".

nemorosa wrote:
The other points you raise - jumping, spinning and hanging upside down are just plain silly.


It is not silly since they are correlated. Additionally, many sensory issues and stims are correlated to Aspie hunting traits. The different hunting technique that developped in Neanderthal in fact can explain the more acute senses of autistics, just as it can explain stims and differences in communication. There exists no other credible evolutionary explanation for this.

It is also important to note that these traits are no loss of function, but gain of function, which is important. Gain of function cannot be a dysfunction, but must be some kind of adaptation. The traits in the Aspie hunting group, hypersensitive senses and stims are adaptations, and cannot be dysfunctions.



TechnoDog
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19 Feb 2012, 9:00 am

Quote:
Sneaking doesn't work on an open plain, and neither does trapping. These are not adaptations in modern humans, as they had no value in their habitat.


Since when does trapping on a open plain not work? Do you have any skills in survival techniques? And if they were intelligent I would know how to build a pit for people to drop into with spikes in it. I would provoke the person to chase me.

Your theory sounds a bit far fetched to me, when most human history is based on very thin, none factual info. How can you build any info from a body.

You do know that sensory issues can be caused by brain defects & none fully developed parts. also depends what freq your ear might not block or none fade over time And how does a Aspie hunt? where do I read about Aspie hunting techniques. Sure every different type of person has different hunting techniques.

I picture myself as a archer, mainly because I like archery.



TechnoDog
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19 Feb 2012, 10:41 am

Also got another question, when you collected this hunting information.

Did you actually get a group of 200 or so people. & observed they hunting behaviour, or just ask someone to fill in a quiz, as I see you excluded any projectile weapons. That means you presume that your factually right & your excluding choice of choosing projectiles.

As I am sure I read 1 theory that Neanderthal were exterminated with bows.



Joe90
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19 Feb 2012, 12:31 pm

Hunting for food, or for a job?


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nemorosa
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19 Feb 2012, 1:13 pm

rdos wrote:
nemorosa wrote:
Well, like I've already said in the other thread pretty much all the hunting skills (tracking, sneaking, trapping etc) apply to all hunters whether Neanderthal or not, and are not unique in any way.


Not so. As Valerius points out, modern humans are "the desert people", and have adapted a hunting tactic that works on open plains. Sneaking doesn't work on an open plain, and neither does trapping. These are not adaptations in modern humans, as they had no value in their habitat.

Then you make the common mistake to assume that any type of traits we see in modern hunters are human universals that evolved with modern humans, which is just faulty logic on your part, It does not follow that because modern hunters use all type of tactics that these are universals, or evolved in our species. We expect those traits to be part of today's hunting activities because we are a Neanderthal hybrid.

Additionally, these traits today are only losely coupled with neurodiversity, and have deluted more into the general population than many other neurodiversity traits. Still, they are correlated with each others and with neurodiversity, which proves the point they are not "human universals".

nemorosa wrote:
The other points you raise - jumping, spinning and hanging upside down are just plain silly.


It is not silly since they are correlated. Additionally, many sensory issues and stims are correlated to Aspie hunting traits. The different hunting technique that developped in Neanderthal in fact can explain the more acute senses of autistics, just as it can explain stims and differences in communication. There exists no other credible evolutionary explanation for this.

It is also important to note that these traits are no loss of function, but gain of function, which is important. Gain of function cannot be a dysfunction, but must be some kind of adaptation. The traits in the Aspie hunting group, hypersensitive senses and stims are adaptations, and cannot be dysfunctions.


What a load of old guff from beginning to end. All modern humans have tracked, sneaked and trapped. It's a fact. And they've lived and hunted in forests, plains and mountains. Doubtless the techniques varied and had to be adapted to habitat but there is no doubt that those were vital survival skills just as they were for Neanderthals.

You appear to use language in a way that you think gives a sense of credibility to your ideas, hence entirely invented concepts such as "aspie hunting traits". It won't make anything you say any more convincing I'm afraid. The only person making any correlation is yourself.

It is so laughably unrealistic to expect wrestling with animals 30,000 years ago to be the reason that some autistic people report a liking for spinning. I've got just as valid a suggestion for you - Neanderthals were so into doing it 'doggy style' that that's the reason autistic people don't like looking people in the eye. What do you think?



Ellendra
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19 Feb 2012, 3:13 pm

rdos wrote:
Sneaking doesn't work on an open plain, and neither does trapping.



It depends. There are some sneaking techniques that work quite well in flat open areas that wouldn't work so well in a wooded or uneven area, and vice-versa. But trapping works everywhere, provided the trap is matched to the terrain.



rdos
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19 Feb 2012, 4:17 pm

The idea that hunting adaptations cannot be seen as odd playful behavior in young individuals is laughable. It is a fact that virtually every predator as a youngster train its hunting skills with various types of play. These plays are not random, but the way the young learns to become competent hunters. And these plays are similar within the same species, simply because of inherited preferences. Neurotypical humans has these as well, and they usually involve ball sports which are their way of training cooperative hunting. Given how popular totally useless football playing is, it is ridiculous to propose it has no function. Nobody in their right mind would play football just for fun if it wasn't for inherited preferences.

I had many of these odd preferences as a youngster, but they are not so strong anymore. For instance, I was fascinated with water. I practised throwing small objects a lot, and mostly used small stones, which irritated some people. I jumped over fences just for the fun of it. And most importantly, I had no idea why I had these strange preferences, but they make sense as adaptations for close-combat hunting. They practically makes no sense for anything else.

And if nemorosa doesn't believe in correlation analysis, that's not my problem. Much of ASD research builds on that so I guess that would not be credible either. As I wrote before about the DSM-bible, it is possible to claim that ASDs is what is in the DSM bible, but then most tests are invalid, as well as much of the research done.



rdos
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19 Feb 2012, 4:21 pm

nemorosa wrote:
Neanderthals were so into doing it 'doggy style' that that's the reason autistic people don't like looking people in the eye. What do you think?


No reason why this should be so. A better reason why autistics don't like direct eye contact is that most species regard it as a threat. That is a valid explanation, while your is not.



rdos
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19 Feb 2012, 4:29 pm

TechnoDog wrote:
Also got another question, when you collected this hunting information.

Did you actually get a group of 200 or so people. & observed they hunting behaviour, or just ask someone to fill in a quiz, as I see you excluded any projectile weapons. That means you presume that your factually right & your excluding choice of choosing projectiles.


The research was done with the scientific method. First a few testable predictions was formulated based on Valerius Geists idea. These were then added as extra questions in Aspie Quiz, mixed up with the ordinary questions, to see if they correlated with scores (and with themselves). The aspects tested are listed in the blog entry I linked to. It turned out that all the traits was most correlated to themselves (which we expect if they are related), and also that they correlated to Aspie score. And this was no data-mining project as Valerius Geist had clearly provided clues as to what we would expect, and it all was confirmed. After these traits were added, it also turned out that this was related to some other traits that were not linked with much else before (the preferences for water, mist and woods). The Aspie hunting group did not exist prior to checking Geist hypothesis, but was possible to construct after testing it.



nemorosa
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19 Feb 2012, 6:36 pm

rdos wrote:
The idea that hunting adaptations cannot be seen as odd playful behavior in young individuals is laughable. It is a fact that virtually every predator as a youngster train its hunting skills with various types of play. These plays are not random, but the way the young learns to become competent hunters. And these plays are similar within the same species, simply because of inherited preferences. Neurotypical humans has these as well, and they usually involve ball sports which are their way of training cooperative hunting. Given how popular totally useless football playing is, it is ridiculous to propose it has no function. Nobody in their right mind would play football just for fun if it wasn't for inherited preferences.


Yes, yes, yes. We get it. Social bonding, competitiveness and sexual display are what sports are all about, and yes there are inherited behavioural drivers for this.

A "fancy" for spinning doesn't serve any purpose here, except to disorientate the spinner.

rdos wrote:
I jumped over fences just for the fun of it. And most importantly, I had no idea why I had these strange preferences, but they make sense as adaptations for close-combat hunting. They practically makes no sense for anything else.


But you are making a case for these traits coming from Neanderthals. It wasn't just Neanderthals who hunted at close quarters as you seem to keep forgetting.

I see young children do pointless things such as leap over stuff all the time. It is all part of developing physical prowess, fine tuning co-ordination and building skeletal strength at a time when their bodies are undergoing constant change. Yes it is fun, because such behaviour gives a selective advantage (or did when life was more physical).

rdos wrote:
And if nemorosa doesn't believe in correlation analysis, that's not my problem. Much of ASD research builds on that so I guess that would not be credible either. As I wrote before about the DSM-bible, it is possible to claim that ASDs is what is in the DSM bible, but then most tests are invalid, as well as much of the research done.


If you can't see the problems in your methodology, that's not my problem.



nemorosa
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19 Feb 2012, 6:41 pm

rdos wrote:
nemorosa wrote:
Neanderthals were so into doing it 'doggy style' that that's the reason autistic people don't like looking people in the eye. What do you think?


No reason why this should be so. A better reason why autistics don't like direct eye contact is that most species regard it as a threat. That is a valid explanation, while your is not.


You really don't get whimsical do you?



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19 Feb 2012, 6:51 pm

rdos wrote:
nemorosa wrote:
Well, like I've already said in the other thread pretty much all the hunting skills (tracking, sneaking, trapping etc) apply to all hunters whether Neanderthal or not, and are not unique in any way.


Not so. As Valerius points out, modern humans are "the desert people", and have adapted a hunting tactic that works on open plains. Sneaking doesn't work on an open plain, and neither does trapping. These are not adaptations in modern humans, as they had no value in their habitat.
...


Bushmen sneak up on their prey, as do leopards in the African plains. And I read that Homo erectus already used pitfalls to trap large animals. Our African H. sapiens ancestors, being descendants of H. erectus, would have done the same.

Btw, H. sapiens started using atlatls (spearthrowers) about 30,000 years ago. An atlatl can cast a spear over a distance of 100 meters at a speed of 150 km/h, so there is no need to sneak up close. H. sapiens were vastly superior hunters compared to H. neanderthalensis and had nothing to gain from them in terms of hunting skills. The only real benefit of interbreeding was a stronger immune system.

rdos wrote:
nemorosa wrote:
The other points you raise - jumping, spinning and hanging upside down are just plain silly.


It is not silly since they are correlated. Additionally, many sensory issues and stims are correlated to Aspie hunting traits. The different hunting technique that developped in Neanderthal in fact can explain the more acute senses of autistics, just as it can explain stims and differences in communication. There exists no other credible evolutionary explanation for this.

It is also important to note that these traits are no loss of function, but gain of function, which is important. Gain of function cannot be a dysfunction, but must be some kind of adaptation. The traits in the Aspie hunting group, hypersensitive senses and stims are adaptations, and cannot be dysfunctions.


There is definitely a loss of function. Quote from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... brain.html

Quote:
In children with the gene (a gene that has been linked to autism and AS), the brain's frontal lobe, which plays a key role in learning, is poorly linked to the rest of the brain, the journal Science Translational Medicine reports.
Researcher Ashley Scott-Van Zeeland said: 'In children who carry the risk gene, the front of the brain seems to mainly talk to itself.
'It doesn't communicate as much with other parts of the brain and lacks long-range connections to the back of the brain.'
There were also fewer connections between the frontal lobe and the left side of the brain, which is key to speech and understanding language.


Besides, common symptoms of AS include clumsiness, problems with hand-eye coordination, and balance problems. This also indicates a loss of function and is certainly not very advantageous for a hunter.



lightening020
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20 Feb 2012, 1:10 am

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Besides, common symptoms of AS include clumsiness, problems with hand-eye coordination, and balance problems. This also indicates a loss of function and is certainly not very advantageous for a hunter.


How do you define clumsiness? If you compare it to NT's, it is clumsiness. If you think about the implications of the theory that this guy has proposed, a whole new level of possibilities in understanding change.

What if all of the traditional ways in which sports and PE are taught don't have the same effect on kids on the spectrum? What if the everything in school is meant towards NT kids, but just doesn't help with kids on the spectrum in the way that it is supposed to?

What if kids on the spectrum could be just as strong or even stronger if things like PE sports and weightlifting were done in a different way?

What if people on the spectrum actually turned out to be kickass hunters if they learned how and got the chance? I'm willing to bet most people on this board live in suburban or urban areas, not the traditional south or midwest or even northern USA where hunting is prevalent.



rdos
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20 Feb 2012, 3:06 am

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Bushmen sneak up on their prey, as do leopards in the African plains. And I read that Homo erectus already used pitfalls to trap large animals. Our African H. sapiens ancestors, being descendants of H. erectus, would have done the same.


Quite beside the point. First, I propose the divergence of neurodiversity and neurotypical traits happened as Homo erectus formed (which means we expect such evidence in Eurasia in Homo erectus). Second, trapping was not proposed by Geist, but it correlates with the other traits, and thus have a common origin (Neanderthal). Third, Bush men hunt in the traditional way (I know since I read a book about them).

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Btw, H. sapiens started using atlatls (spearthrowers) about 30,000 years ago. An atlatl can cast a spear over a distance of 100 meters at a speed of 150 km/h,


The hybrid population invented this, not modern humans. I also know about atlatls, as I have one myself and can throw about 100 meters with it.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
so there is no need to sneak up close. H. sapiens were vastly superior hunters compared to H. neanderthalensis and had nothing to gain from them in terms of hunting skills. The only real benefit of interbreeding was a stronger immune system.


You'd wish.

CrazyCatLord wrote:
There is definitely a loss of function. Quote from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... brain.html

Quote:
In children with the gene (a gene that has been linked to autism and AS), the brain's frontal lobe, which plays a key role in learning, is poorly linked to the rest of the brain, the journal Science Translational Medicine reports.
Researcher Ashley Scott-Van Zeeland said: 'In children who carry the risk gene, the front of the brain seems to mainly talk to itself.
'It doesn't communicate as much with other parts of the brain and lacks long-range connections to the back of the brain.'
There were also fewer connections between the frontal lobe and the left side of the brain, which is key to speech and understanding language.


Besides, common symptoms of AS include clumsiness, problems with hand-eye coordination, and balance problems. This also indicates a loss of function and is certainly not very advantageous for a hunter.


These are not loss of function. They are lack of neurotypical function. OTOH, you didn't read well. The argument about not being loss of function related to stims, hunting traits and sensory issues, not to Dyspraxia.

Additionally, Dyspraxia is not related to Aspie hunting (as we expect), but to neurotypical perception. Perception since we are talking about traits that are necesary for distance hunting. All these can be summarized as: Ability to judge distance, speed and acceleration. They have nothing to do with motor problems, they are perception issues.