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SteveK
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29 Oct 2006, 4:50 pm

OH STINKY! **I** get it! you want to use hugs as PUNISHMENT!! !! ! Well, that isn't a good idea. And you must think little of AS people. I once saw a seemingly NT person do that in someone else home ON PURPOSE! He LATER claimed he was asleep. I always doubted that. HECK, look at seinfeld or "big daddy"!

Anyway, it takes more than LOVE to stop that! They give you the idea ALL males are like that. I EVEN hate those stupid "SECRET" commercials! I have known women that were NOT nearly that putoff by that, and most men I know don't seem to be NEARLY that bad!

And they UNDERSTAND the connection. They just don't appreciate it if you FORCE them into it! Ever see charles addams comic strip, aptly called "The addams family"? One thing they did was cut those "ugly" flowers off the stems! If a womans fiance clipped the flowers off, KNOWING FULL WELL SHE LIKED THEM, would it be pleasing to her JUST because he said that showed his love for her?

What if she was ALLERGIC to roses, and he KNEW it, and sent her roses ANYWAY, with the flowers intact?

You are talking like a psychiatrist, but NOT like someone that truly wants to solve anything.

Steve



Stinkypuppy
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29 Oct 2006, 5:00 pm

SteveK wrote:
And you must think little of AS people.


I am self-diagnosed with AS and currently seeing a psychiatrist to get a diagnosis.

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You are talking like a psychiatrist, but NOT like someone that truly wants to solve anything.


I'm sorry that you feel that way.



tigerlily
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29 Oct 2006, 5:44 pm

i think it might be worth considering why you need your son to regularly be physically affectionate towards you when you are aware that its not a pleasant experience for him. there is no love,only proof of love and he demonstrates his love to you often in his own way and in a way he feels comfortable with. maybe you need to respect his right to be an unusual individual and treat him accordingly. you maybe need also to stop comparing him to his sister.his relationship with you is different not less. personally i feel that i am not aware of boundaries between me and everything and everyone else.its like having a very thin skin.i can easily feel threatened with invasion when people are physically affectionate towards me. its a physical and emotional intrusion. why dont you ask him if he would prefer it if you asked him to hold your hand when you are feeling affectionate .maybe ask him what you can do to make him feel happy and show him that you love him .there are lots of ways of showing that you care and it would be great if you could open up a line of communication regarding this with your son. interestingly in my family i am the one who struggles with impromptu hugs and kisses from my 8yr old son ..we talk about it and he understands that i am just different i think. he absolutely feels loved by me he says .hugs and kisses can feel like they get inside your skin.does that sound like a nice feeling. also they can make me feel like there is no air for me to breathe,like my breath is being taken by the other person and that their aura is invading mine. hugging someone who feels this way isnt showing them that you care its showing a lack of understanding and sensitivity. sometimes it can almost feel like its an attempt to steal your soul. it all sounds a bit heavy.sorry. i dont mean to criticise or condemn. i just thought seeing things from a different viewpoint might help. wishing you lots of happy times together.



walk-in-the-rain
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29 Oct 2006, 5:49 pm

Stinkypuppy wrote:
SteveK,

I'm well aware that touch sensitivity is one of the symptoms of AS. However, it is possible to overcome touch sensitivity if one actually wants to do it. It's easier to want to overcome touch sensitivity if he himself wants to show affection in that way. For example, I like hugging people that are really really close to me, because I make that association in my mind.

Sure, in the end one can say that there is nothing wrong with the way that the son expresses emotion, but the standard is kind of arbitrary. Some aptitude in social skills is required to deal with other people, NT and AS alike. Yeah, there is nothing wrong necessarily with a person not wanting to learn social skills perceived as strictly suiting NTs, as long as that person understands and accepts the result of such actions.


I might add that some kids with AS do not necessarily make the connection unless it is spelled out for them. That is why so many kids who were not diagnosed were bullied or thought of as odd because they didn't know what the "rules" were because it was just thought to be something that everyone understands. Making your kids do something they don't want to do (like forced hugging) and explaining to them what is considered social behavior are two entirely DIFFERENT things. For example - I do not like to shake hands mostly because of OCD and sensory issues. Now do I just ignore someone who has their hand stretched out? If I do that then I should know that I can appear to be unfriendly. So I have learned to put out little signals ahead of time to indicate that I don't want to shake hands - like having your arm crossed in front of you - or trying to avoid eye contact which will make someone hesitate to initiate a handshake. (I did shake hands with someone about two weeks ago and I find it still to be unpleasant to think about but I was distracted and acted like a deer in the headlights.)


Now a 5 yr old child is not going to need to learn all that yet - but showing how the social skills work actually empowers the person with AS to be able to try and choose alternatives - even if it would be to give them the OK to say I don't like to hug please don't take it personally. If you do not know what is supposed to be reciprical behaviors than you are often left looking odd or silly. I was bullied in school because I was oblivious and I became very anxious and shy. So teaching a child that certain people want hugs at certain times lets them know that this is what people do and may spare them some embarrassment which could lead to wanting to avoid certain social situations. That doesn't have anything to do with forcing someone to hug or using hugs as punishment.



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29 Oct 2006, 5:59 pm

Many people with AS have difficulty with showing their emotions. Although I do have emotions, I am never quite sure of what they are or how to express them so that other people would understand, so I rarely do.

As for the hugging, it could be a physical or sensory problem. There is also the possibility of it being an emotional problem (though with your son, it seems it is the former case, rather than the latter). Hugging is a very emotional gesture and some people do not want others to get that close to them. As for a sensory problem, some people have problems when others touch them and hugging is being touched.

There are other ways to say "I love you" other than giving hugs and saying those words. You can study love languages and each person has his or her own love language, though the way it manifests in different people will vary. Your way of saying "I love you" might be giving hugs (I know someone like that and it drives me crazy!). You might have a friend who loves giving gifts to people. Or a co-worker who enjoys coming into the office early and placing encouraging notes and muffins on everyone's desks. (My way is more duty/service oriented.)

My point is that you know that your son loves you, whether he says those particular words or not. This is something that all parents and families of people with AS or autism should know. Just because someone cannot express their love or does not show it in the same way as most other people do, does not mean that they do not love. Quite the contrary.


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29 Oct 2006, 6:04 pm

SteveK wrote:
you want to use hugs as PUNISHMENT!! !! !


My grandmother used to punish me by rubbing her arms.


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tigerlily
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29 Oct 2006, 6:10 pm

i just want to say that i can totally relate to the deer caught in headlights analogy.very good.also how the unpleasant feeling can last for ages,i can feel like i have been poisoned.in fact sometimes when i am struggling i will say that i am suffering from people poisoning and i need to detox.i do believe its not all about showing aspies how to pretend that they are not but educating nts to be respectful of others individuality.do you think sometimes that nts feel threatened somehow by aspies and is it because of their different social behaviour.so part of the strong drive to normalise kids is to make them less scarey.



walk-in-the-rain
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29 Oct 2006, 7:15 pm

I'm all for trying to get others to respect boundaries because it is such a huge issue for me. And sometimes the boundaries that others know I like are deliberately intruded upon to bother me.
I also think that NTs are not necessarily threatened by AS behavior but that it is such a different way of doing things that it is very hard for many to understand. I used to think that if you simply explained things like how a meltdown feels than someone who was NT would understand. But I have seen that regardless of how much they nod and agree they will turn around and STILL think it is due to misbehavior or manipulation because they relate it to a tantrum. Of course there is a spectrum of NTs also - so some are more keenly aware of stuff like this. The ones who do not have a clue I think are more likely to try and normalize as much as possible. However, I have seen a couple of people saying they thought their parents were AS and that they were very rigid in social conformity. So I'm not sure what to think about that. I guess if someone on the spectrum was raised with alot of strict social conforming rules they AGREED with they might insist on strict adherence to those rules for everyone also.



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29 Oct 2006, 8:44 pm

walk-in-the-rain wrote:
I might add that some kids with AS do not necessarily make the connection unless it is spelled out for them. That is why so many kids who were not diagnosed were bullied or thought of as odd because they didn't know what the "rules" were because it was just thought to be something that everyone understands. Making your kids do something they don't want to do (like forced hugging) and explaining to them what is considered social behavior are two entirely DIFFERENT things. For example - I do not like to shake hands mostly because of OCD and sensory issues. Now do I just ignore someone who has their hand stretched out? If I do that then I should know that I can appear to be unfriendly. So I have learned to put out little signals ahead of time to indicate that I don't want to shake hands - like having your arm crossed in front of you - or trying to avoid eye contact which will make someone hesitate to initiate a handshake. (I did shake hands with someone about two weeks ago and I find it still to be unpleasant to think about but I was distracted and acted like a deer in the headlights.)

Now a 5 yr old child is not going to need to learn all that yet - but showing how the social skills work actually empowers the person with AS to be able to try and choose alternatives - even if it would be to give them the OK to say I don't like to hug please don't take it personally. If you do not know what is supposed to be reciprical behaviors than you are often left looking odd or silly. I was bullied in school because I was oblivious and I became very anxious and shy. So teaching a child that certain people want hugs at certain times lets them know that this is what people do and may spare them some embarrassment which could lead to wanting to avoid certain social situations. That doesn't have anything to do with forcing someone to hug or using hugs as punishment.


100% agree with you! 8) Teaching a child what the social norms are will help the child deal with preliminary socializations with other children. I wanted to make sure that people understood what I was trying to say, that I'm not suggesting that Nina force her son to think that hugging is the only way to convey the emotion of love, and most definitely hugging should NOT be used as a punishment. Teaching the child the social norms is just raising a child, the child is not born with preconceived notions of what is socially acceptable behavior. It's a totally different story when the child becomes a teenager and begins to take on an identity of his own, but as for the matter at hand, Nina's son is still very young.

Maybe I do sound like a psychiatrist, because I try to be analytical and emotionally neutral... just like AS. 8)



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29 Oct 2006, 8:59 pm

tigerlily wrote:
i just want to say that i can totally relate to the deer caught in headlights analogy.very good.also how the unpleasant feeling can last for ages,i can feel like i have been poisoned.in fact sometimes when i am struggling i will say that i am suffering from people poisoning and i need to detox.i do believe its not all about showing aspies how to pretend that they are not but educating nts to be respectful of others individuality.do you think sometimes that nts feel threatened somehow by aspies and is it because of their different social behaviour.so part of the strong drive to normalise kids is to make them less scarey.


Some NTs are very respectful of people's individuality, and others are not. A lot of the NT acquaintances I have in graduate school are very very accepting of people's idiosyncrasies; you see quite a few eccentric students and professors at university! 8) But yeah, other NTs are very closed-minded. It's sad.

As for threats: I think that some NTs could view very severe meltdowns (kicking and screaming, or even grabbing people and trying to do physical harm) as very threatening, and if I saw this behavior in an adult in public, I would not blame them for feeling threatened. Something to keep in mind would probably be that if a meltdown occurred, it's quite possible that the AS person could go after another person with AS, depending on how the situation started. After all, many of us have difficulties understanding other people face-to-face. So we probably should be careful to not look like hypocrites, expecting NTs to act in certain ways but not following the same expectations ourselves.



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29 Oct 2006, 9:10 pm

walk-in-the-rain wrote:
I also think that NTs are not necessarily threatened by AS behavior but that it is such a different way of doing things that it is very hard for many to understand. I used to think that if you simply explained things like how a meltdown feels than someone who was NT would understand. But I have seen that regardless of how much they nod and agree they will turn around and STILL think it is due to misbehavior or manipulation because they relate it to a tantrum. Of course there is a spectrum of NTs also - so some are more keenly aware of stuff like this. The ones who do not have a clue I think are more likely to try and normalize as much as possible.


I agree with you here as well. I tend to think of the set of AS behavioral traits like a separate, distinct culture, just like there is an "American culture" or "Australian culture" or "Japanese culture" or "French culture." There is an "AS culture" with its own set of social norms and expectations, all of which are based on wiring of the brain or whatever you'd like to call it. A lot of NT-AS friction basically comes from culture clash. We are all raised with various mixtures of AS culture and some other NT-based culture, and not only do we have to reconcile these cultures in our own minds and behaviors, but also we must deal with people of other cultures who do not understand or are unfamiliar with AS culture. Some people will be very open-minded and accepting of AS culture, just as they might accept Swedish culture if they were visiting Sweden. Or... they could be closed-minded and think, "No way! German culture is the best way!" And those are the people who will scoff at you or be stubbornly adherent to that culture.

P.S. Please note that I mention countries as examples of geographical locations only, and is not to imply anything social about those countries at all! 8)



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29 Oct 2006, 9:43 pm

Stinky puppy,

I made a BIG mistake. I wrote a long informative post, with the hope of sending it. My cut got wiped out along with the process. Anyway, I'll just leave you with this. 8-(

Anyway, the idea of an aversion to things like hugs is NOT due to him thinking it is wrong. It is due to his emotions and senses making it UNCOMFORTABLE for him. I've been there, and it is LITERALLY TEXTBOOK!

Steve



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29 Oct 2006, 9:44 pm

Disclaimer: I'm offering this post in the hopes that you'll find it helpful. It isn't in any way designed to make you feel bad or to tell you off - so please don't feel put off or offended when reading it.

nina wrote:
My son is 8. For as long as I can remember he has never, EVER said he loves me without me saying it to him first (which I do several times a day). He has NEVER come up to me to hug or kiss me and when I give him a kiss he wipes it off and if I hug him his arms fall to his side and it looks like I'm hurting him. [...] I treat them both the same with my affection and even though he doesn't show it I still give him the hugs and kisses.


My first question, is why you keep hugging and kissing him if he seems to dislike it? Or saying to him that you love him several times a day - even once a day, to me, would feel very repetitive. If my mum had said it every day I'd wonder if she thought I had a bad memory, and had forgotten the last time that she said it.

I'd ask him what he thinks about being regularly told - does he like it, or find it strange/annoying? (Note - finding a behaviour or habit of yours annoying does _not_ mean that he does not love you - just that he dislikes the behaviour or habit. I find that I have to remind my parents of this, or they end up feeling hurt when I ask them to not do something, or to do it less.) The same for hugging and kissing - ask him how he feels about it, and tell him it's ok to be honest, you won't be offended, but you want to make sure you're showing that you love him the most efficient way possible. Tell him you need to know if he dislikes something, so you'll know to not do it. (You could ask him if he can think of something to suggest instead, in the same conversation.)


nina wrote:

Does he understand what it means when I tell him I love him?

Ask him. I don't know how verbal he is, but a lot of aspergics have good communication skills - do you find that he talks to you often, using complex sentences and conveying intelligent thoughts, or does he have trouble expressing himself? If it's the latter I hope you can find a way to communicate effectively with each other regardless - as his mother you probably have figured out how to have a conversation with him already. ;) (Although haing said that, apparently my mother underetimated my intelligence for several years - might be an idea to make sure you've not assumed anything about him simply due to his age.)

nina wrote:
Does he understand that when my daughter hugs and kisses me and says I love you to me all the time that we all love him just as much?

Thanks!


Actually, when your daughter hugs and kisses you and says that she loves you, she is conveying that _she_ loves _you_. To his mind, this probably has nothing to do with whether _you_ love _him_. (I was certainly briefly confused by the question, anyway. At eight I'd possibly have been baffled.)

Anyway, I'd recommend having a talk with him about it. I find it strange and annoying when people do the whole 'what should I do about the situation with X?' conversation whilst never thinking to consult X about it. I realise in some cases consulting X would be impractical, but I would imagine your son would be able to tell you what he wants and does not want.

I hope that was helpful, and made some sort of sense. :? :)



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29 Oct 2006, 9:58 pm

SteveK wrote:
Anyway, the idea of an aversion to things like hugs is NOT due to him thinking it is wrong. It is due to his emotions and senses making it UNCOMFORTABLE for him. I've been there, and it is LITERALLY TEXTBOOK!


I know exactly what you mean here. I still have extreme difficulty hugging my brother, even though he understands me the best out of anybody out there, I absolutely trust his judgment, and I love him. It's just that we don't hug. It feels very weird to do it with him, I tense up and my hands get cold; it's a very physical reaction. It's uncomfortable. But when I feel extremely inclined to do it, I have no problems doing it. Although it might be uncomfortable, I am now never averse to receiving a hug. Why? Because I have chosen to focus more on the feeling that the other person is trying to convey, and not so much on the action itself. When I think of things like this in such a way, it makes it easier for me to accept what other people do. If I want people to accept my preferences, I have to be willing to accept other people's preferences. Otherwise it will only look like I'm being unfair and wanting everything "my way or the highway," so to speak. I made the conscious decision to accept hugging for myself, much in the same way that I made a decision to work on my small talk skills (which was a seriously difficult thing for me to work on).



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30 Oct 2006, 1:15 am

SteveK, you are coming off very aggressively with your capped words and your confrontational approach. Just sayin'. You are one person and you can not speak for all others concerning sensory integration and social skills.
Many/most autistic people have some tactile issues, eg hugs/affection. That doesn't mean that every autistic person doesn't want to be hugged or that those that resist hugging will never like it. People have different reasons for resistance. My son didn't want to be controlled. He learned at a very early age to ask for hugs, to resist in a clear way when he didn't want a hug and to ask if he can touch. For him, he needs to know ahead of time that someone wants a hug. He is very affectionate and sometimes needs to be discouraged from touching too much. He has taught NT's to hug at school.
Temple Grandin, PhD, created a squeeze machine so she can "hug herself". It too, is about control. She realized that deep tissue pressure made her calmer, happier. But she couldn't stand hugs from family members.

My point (and many others) are to show Nina that there are many answers to her son's hug issue.
He may want very much to hug, but lacks the ability to convey that. He may not want to hug ever. It's worth investigating.



SteveK
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30 Oct 2006, 7:32 am

KimJ,

Funny thing about my capped words. I used to write everything in caps! I eventually changed, but then got yelled at for yelling! Why? Because I got an Apple II+. It didn't have lower case! OK, so I got a lower case adapter, and the world seemed ok. I emphasive, and people accuse me of yelling.

As for claiming to speak for all, I have never done that. I wouldn't presume to. However, her son did make his wishes known, and I had the same problem. Will he ever hug of his own accord? Probably. Aspergers people can change. That is not only an implied aspect, but one that has happened many times. All I am saying is that I am sure forcing it is bad advice.

BTW back to the speaking for all topic. I happen to fit into a lot of groups someway, and outsiders misunderstand us. HECK, I am white male. Some may consider me a geek or nerd. I am middle aged. I am a programmer I don't like sports. I come off as confrontational and arrogant, but am actually nice and modest. I even ask my employers to turn down the praise. If you would only think of the steriotypes there, you could see what I mean.

And now I find that there is a diagnoses that explains it all! It is a curse and a blessing though. The only real benefits I see is that I am not alone, and more people have a CHANCE to understand me. Heck, I told my mother about how this even explains how I apparantly never learned to speak. She never heard me utter a word, just complete sentences, and she marveled about how I only made one mistake she ever knew of. IT was so slight she may only have misheard. Anyway, even THAT is on wikipedia!

When It comes right down to it, I guess you are right. It is opinion. I just think mine(and that of many others given here) should trump others, because WE have been there!(sorry for emphasis, but I feel it should stay). I think HIS feelings should trump any others because doing otherwise is just not right IMHO.(akronym)

Anyway, I have sanitized most of the emphasis here. Sorry for "yelling".

Steve