Ohio, Chardon High School shooting, 3 dead.

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jojobean
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27 Feb 2012, 8:54 pm

I was actually thinking they would blame it on violent video games.

But the real culprit when you dig down deep enough, is bullying. Of the shooters that are students, many times it turned out the shooter was bullied alot and snapped.

Jojo


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27 Feb 2012, 9:40 pm

jojobean wrote:
I was actually thinking they would blame it on violent video games.

But the real culprit when you dig down deep enough, is bullying. Of the shooters that are students, many times it turned out the shooter was bullied alot and snapped.

Jojo


It definitely was bullying. How else could this happen. Would someone really just want to shoot a gun because of how fun it is in video games?

America's school system needs to completely be redone. I always remembered hearing "tell a teacher or counselor/principle" if you are being bullied. I always remembered getting the message that itsbetter to avoid harm and conflicts at all costs..

Tattling on your classmates is not going to make you any friends, and sticking up for yourself and tackling conflicts is something everybody needs to learn. But they don't teach you any of that in school.

Having the confidence to stand up for yourself, social skills, and self-defense are more important than math, science, and english.

School is a waste of time. The skills you really need to know they dont teach, but the BS you don't need is what they focus on.

Instead of rubbish PE, which is probably the class where the most bullying occurs I would be willing to bet, they should have a watered down martial arts class. Maybe something along the lines of BJJ where there isn't any striking. Just really basic stuff meant for kids, with a very low risk of injury, but I'd bet that if every kid knew how to fight bullying would stop.

It would kill two birds with one stone. It takes care of physical exercise, and it helps learn self-defense.



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28 Feb 2012, 2:48 am

shartora wrote:
So you are 10 times more likely to be murdered with a gun in the US as in the UK. Says a lot for strict gun control.



Ironically enough, the constitution was crafted with defense and militia in mind... to defend agasint threats to country and home... one of which was the UK... odd, isn't it?



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28 Feb 2012, 2:52 am

ProfumoAffair wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
ProfumoAffair wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
shartora wrote:
Probably repeating what's been said lots of times, but it's the price a nation pays for allowing guns to be available generally.

List of countries sorted by gun-related deaths shows the difference in a big way.

To use US and UK as an illustration

US 4.14/100,000 people killed by someone else
UK 0.41/100,000

So you are 10 times more likely to be murdered with a gun in the US as in the UK. Says a lot for strict gun control.


I don't think banning guns would really reduce violent crimes committed with guns...it would just prevent law abiding citizens from purchasing guns but I think violent criminals could find a way around that and still acquire guns to kill people with, but citizens would be left without the option to purchase a gun they could potentially defend them self with if need be. Also, gun free zones to me are just asking for people with mass killing on their mind to go for it.

Also this seems very recent so until there is more information and I can read up on suspected motives, if it actually was a student ect. before I form on opinion on what might have prevented this.

Banning guns means only the outlaws have guns. Not banning guns means there are a lot more outlaws. I guess people just stick wax in their ears when they ignore the murder rate in the USA and its relation to guns.


I don't know...last I checked guns don't make people turn into outlaws. I mean I highly doubt if I was to go out and buy a gun it would make me into a more violent person. I've even shot targets with a gun when I was out with some family like a year ago and it did not give me any violent urges. That said I admit I've broken a law here and there but nothing violent that would hurt people.

Also I don't think I have stuck any wax in my ears, I just think banning guns would pretty much ensure a law abiding citizen when faced with a violent criminal with a gun breaking into their house for instance will get shot. Guns can be used appropriately so they should not be taken from people who use them appropriately that just punishes the ones who do follow the gun rules. I do not think banning guns would reduce the frequency of violent crime. But that is just my opinion based on what I've seen, experianced, information I've looked up ect.
Just your opinion doesn't mean that guns give people power, and power corrupts. Soon as you give a man a gun, you have a problem.


And that guns should be banned is just your opinion. I don't think guns turn people violent......the notion is just ridiculous to me.


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shartora
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28 Feb 2012, 6:15 am

So now we have people rushing to defend a general right to bear arms, can someone please explain the 10 times more likely to die figures? They at least are not in any way an opinion.

If it's nothing to do with gun control then what causes it?


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28 Feb 2012, 8:06 am

I'm in favor of gun control but is certainly not the core issue. There are plenty of people who are capable of handling guns responsibly. As for adults who leave their guns out in their open, well... that is a different story.

The core issues like others have said is most likely bullying. The other issue may be the sensationalization of these crimes. I wish the media would stop making such a big deal out of this stuff. It only reenforces copycat crimes. School shooters are not heroes, they are criminals.

They may be victims as well, but the effort should be focused on preventing bullying, on preventing guns to be allowed in school, on preventing violence in the first place (yes, bullying is violence). The focus should not be on creating a dramatic spectacle for everyone to witness and have a dramatic emotional response.



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28 Feb 2012, 8:17 am

shartora wrote:
So now we have people rushing to defend a general right to bear arms, can someone please explain the 10 times more likely to die figures? They at least are not in any way an opinion.

If it's nothing to do with gun control then what causes it?
BS, like you don't have any explaining to do. Explain Switzerland which has a firearm-related homicide rate of 0.58/100,000. Explain how making guns less legally accessible is going to help when 93% of guns used in crimes have been obtained illegally. Explain how most gun owners are middle class and yet most of the shootings are done by poor criminals. Explain how the average person with a gun is as prone to killing as any other crook when most murders involve criminals killing other criminals. Explain how the states with the most relaxed gun laws aren't the ones with the highest crime. Oh, and explain how legal gun ownership has no correlation to murder at all:

Image

Anyways, what causes the high rate of firearm-related homicides in the US? Crime has many, many causes and gun laws aren't one of them. There are factors like socioeconomic conditions, subcultural influences, and drug prohibition. White middle class folks, who the majority of gun owners are composed of, are obviously not the ones doing most of the shootings. Many black males are brought up without a father in an environment where hypermasculine attitudes are prevalent and enforced by subculture. The states with the most shootings aren't necessarily the ones with the most or least gun control (though coincidentally big cities are usually the ones with the most gun control), but the ones with the most poverty. You are taking a simple minded approach to a complex topic. You need to look at more than just two countries for one, and you need to look at a variety of factors rather than just having tunnel vision about gun policies.

I'm gonna get into some semantics biw. Keep in mind that "firearm-related deaths" has a much broader definition than "firearm-related homicides" since it also includes suicides, accidents, and self-defense killings. Switzerland has about half the gun-related deaths that the US has and yet has about 8x less the firearm-related homicide rate.



Last edited by AceOfSpades on 28 Feb 2012, 8:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

JeremyNJ1984
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28 Feb 2012, 8:31 am

How long before someone asks whether the shooter has Aspergers?



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28 Feb 2012, 8:33 am

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
How long before someone asks whether the shooter has Aspergers?
Doesn't seem like too long since they've already zeroed in on him being a quiet person.



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28 Feb 2012, 11:14 am

AceOfSpades wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
How long before someone asks whether the shooter has Aspergers?
Doesn't seem like too long since they've already zeroed in on him being a quiet person.


They need to quit perpetrating that myth, if that was not such a common myth maybe that chick would not have told me she was suprised I was not the psychopath with the gun when some psycho with a gun came in my school.


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shartora
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28 Feb 2012, 1:04 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
BS, like you don't have any explaining to do.

So I ask for an explanation and you come out guns blazing, wanting me to explain stuff?!?

AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain Switzerland which has a firearm-related homicide rate of 0.58/100,000.

One swallow does not make a summer, just as one country does not make a point.

AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain how making guns less legally accessible is going to help when 93% of guns used in crimes have been obtained illegally.

Well that is too easy, I'm surprised you brought it up. Fewer available guns in a country means there are less guns to be obtained, legally or illegally. It's not rocket science.
AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain how most gun owners are middle class and yet most of the shootings are done by poor criminals. Explain how the average person with a gun is as prone to killing as any other crook when most murders involve criminals killing other criminals.

This rant has what to do with my question?!? Gun availability is involved here as well.
AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain how the states with the most relaxed gun laws aren't the ones with the highest crime.

Most relaxed laws does not necessarily mean they have the most guns per head of population.

AceOfSpades wrote:
Oh, and explain how legal gun ownership has no correlation to murder at all:


Maybe you'd care to explain from where the illegal guns are obtained, unless it's from initially legal sources?

AceOfSpades wrote:
Chart removed to save space, see above.

Anyways, what causes the high rate of firearm-related homicides in the US? Crime has many, many causes and gun laws aren't one of them. There are factors like socioeconomic conditions, subcultural influences, and drug prohibition. White middle class folks, who the majority of gun owners are composed of, are obviously not the ones doing most of the shootings. Many black males are brought up without a father in an environment where hypermasculine attitudes are prevalent and enforced by subculture. The states with the most shootings aren't necessarily the ones with the most or least gun control (though coincidentally big cities are usually the ones with the most gun control), but the ones with the most poverty. You are taking a simple minded approach to a complex topic. You need to look at more than just two countries for one, and you need to look at a variety of factors rather than just having tunnel vision about gun policies.

UK has poverty in the cities, it's not a US problem. We also have gang troubles as well. Also have the young black men problems, just the same as you. In fact: we have all of that stuff you've mentioned.

What we don't have is the ferocious death toll from shootings. We ALSO don't have freely available guns. So as both our nations have the same problems they must cancel out each other from the equation, leaving.....?

AceOfSpades wrote:
I'm gonna get into some semantics biw. Keep in mind that "firearm-related deaths" has a much broader definition than "firearm-related homicides" since it also includes suicides, accidents, and self-defense killings. Switzerland has about half the gun-related deaths that the US has and yet has about 8x less the firearm-related homicide rate.


Still avoiding the point, which is a gun-free country has 10 times less gun-related homicides than a country with freely available guns. You've made no point about this that I can see.

So how about YOU explain how guns could be obtained illegally, in the same volume as the US appears to have them, in a country with no guns? This time don't avoid the issue.


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28 Feb 2012, 9:00 pm

Heavenlyabyss wrote:

Quote:
I'm in favor of gun control but is certainly not the core issue.

Why be in favor of it? Where has gun control actually been effective in practice?
Quote:
They may be victims as well, but the effort should be focused on preventing bullying,

Hard to put a finger on bullying. It has to be legally defined then you’d have to get teachers and other faculty to take a genuine interest in effectively curbing it. Wrong or not, some people secretly (or not so secretly) favor bullies over their victims for the same reason some people like wolves better than sheep. Call it social Darwinism or whatever but it does exist.
I think it would also help a lot for parents to make sure their kids know how to take care of themselves.
Quote:
on preventing guns to be allowed in school,

They are already banned in schools! How much more banned can banned be? Besides, by creating a gun free zone you create a soft target for a massacre to take place un-opposed.



Shartora wrote:
Quote:
Well that is too easy, I'm surprised you brought it up. Fewer available guns in a country means there are less guns to be obtained, legally or illegally. It's not rocket science.

How do you go about this “fewer” thing? This country is almost awash in guns compared to others. Banning them doesn’t magically make them go away it just creates a lucrative black market that will make the illicit drug trade look insignificant by comparison.
On top of that, all the death, suffering, and money wasted on the war on drugs will be multiplied at least a few times over. So now you’ve denied people their rights, created a new class of criminal, created a monstrosity of a black market, tied up law enforcement assets chasing their tails, increased the case burden on the courts, taken up prison space and resources, etc…..
Quote:
Most relaxed laws does not necessarily mean they have the most guns per head of population.

Logic says that relaxed gun laws do mean more guns. This is a good thing because that gives the would be victims a means of protection against the ever-present human predators of society. This is how it actually works in this country and always will.
Quote:
UK has poverty in the cities, it's not a US problem. We also have gang troubles as well. Also have the young black men problems, just the same as you. In fact: we have all of that stuff you've mentioned.
What we don't have is the ferocious death toll from shootings. We ALSO don't have freely available guns. So as both our nations have the same problems they must cancel out each other from the equation, leaving.....?

Comparing the US to the UK is comparing apples to oranges. I’m an American but I’ve been to the UK and it really didn’t take long to notice that there were significant cultural differences.

Also read what I wrote on the first page of this thread.



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28 Feb 2012, 9:12 pm

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain how making guns less legally accessible is going to help when 93% of guns used in crimes have been obtained illegally.

Well that is too easy, I'm surprised you brought it up. Fewer available guns in a country means there are less guns to be obtained, legally or illegally. It's not rocket science.


Not exactly, marijuana is illegal yet if anything the use of it has increased in this country since it was made illegal. Why does this have to do with guns.........because where there is a demand it will be met. That includes illegal things, not to mention then normally law abiding citizens who feel their right to own a gun has been violated will be more likely to purchase guns illegally.

Prohibition fails with drugs, so why wouldn't it fail with guns?

I mean they might even have to make a movie called gun madness, it would be kinda like refeer madness except you would have a perfectly rational person....then he would pick up a gun and turn into a psychopathic serial killer simply because he's been exposed to a gun. kinda ridiculous.


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28 Feb 2012, 9:17 pm

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
BS, like you don't have any explaining to do.

So I ask for an explanation and you come out guns blazing, wanting me to explain stuff?!?
Oh I'm sorry, you're asking the questions here. How dare I question your authority.

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain Switzerland which has a firearm-related homicide rate of 0.58/100,000.

One swallow does not make a summer, just as one country does not make a point.
So I take it you didn't look at my chart which lists 17 countries? Take a good look at North Ireland. It is among some of the lowest rates of gun ownership on the chart and yet it has 5.24/100,000 firearm-related homicides which is even higher than that of the US. Norway is at 0.3/100,000 and yet it has the second highest rate of gun ownership on the chart. That is even lower than the Netherlands at 0.36/100,000 which has the lowest rate of gun ownership on the chart.

Explain that.

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain how making guns less legally accessible is going to help when 93% of guns used in crimes have been obtained illegally.

Well that is too easy, I'm surprised you brought it up. Fewer available guns in a country means there are less guns to be obtained, legally or illegally. It's not rocket science.
Prove it. My chart disagrees.

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain how most gun owners are middle class and yet most of the shootings are done by poor criminals. Explain how the average person with a gun is as prone to killing as any other crook when most murders involve criminals killing other criminals.

This rant has what to do with my question?!? Gun availability is involved here as well.
You asked what causes the US to have 10x more gun-related homicides than the UK if it has nothing to do with gun control. Well there ya go, the black market isn't reliant on legal availability.

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Explain how the states with the most relaxed gun laws aren't the ones with the highest crime.

Most relaxed laws does not necessarily mean they have the most guns per head of population.
You keep going on and on about the correlation between the rates of gun ownership and gun-related homicides as if you're already established the link. Once again, prove it.

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Oh, and explain how legal gun ownership has no correlation to murder at all:


Maybe you'd care to explain from where the illegal guns are obtained, unless it's from initially legal sources?
I see, you can't explain the lack of correlation so you counter with goal post shifting. And you say I'm the one who's avoiding issues. Most guns initially come from Government-licenced factories and circulate their way into the black market. Generally third world countries like Libya and Africa are major sources of illegal guns so it's impossible to trace it back to its entire supply chain, especially when there has been a huge surplus since the Cold War. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics less than 8.5% of crooks in the US obtain their firearms through straw purchases so that isn't a major source of illegal firearms into the black market.

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Chart removed to save space, see above.

Anyways, what causes the high rate of firearm-related homicides in the US? Crime has many, many causes and gun laws aren't one of them. There are factors like socioeconomic conditions, subcultural influences, and drug prohibition. White middle class folks, who the majority of gun owners are composed of, are obviously not the ones doing most of the shootings. Many black males are brought up without a father in an environment where hypermasculine attitudes are prevalent and enforced by subculture. The states with the most shootings aren't necessarily the ones with the most or least gun control (though coincidentally big cities are usually the ones with the most gun control), but the ones with the most poverty. You are taking a simple minded approach to a complex topic. You need to look at more than just two countries for one, and you need to look at a variety of factors rather than just having tunnel vision about gun policies.

UK has poverty in the cities, it's not a US problem. We also have gang troubles as well. Also have the young black men problems, just the same as you. In fact: we have all of that stuff you've mentioned.

What we don't have is the ferocious death toll from shootings. We ALSO don't have freely available guns. So as both our nations have the same problems they must cancel out each other from the equation, leaving.....?
I'm Canadian actually. And none of the UK's worst cities are even close to the conditions of some of the worst cities in the US.

shartora wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
I'm gonna get into some semantics biw. Keep in mind that "firearm-related deaths" has a much broader definition than "firearm-related homicides" since it also includes suicides, accidents, and self-defense killings. Switzerland has about half the gun-related deaths that the US has and yet has about 8x less the firearm-related homicide rate.


Still avoiding the point, which is a gun-free country has 10 times less gun-related homicides than a country with freely available guns. You've made no point about this that I can see.
More like I gave you an answer that wasn't what you wanted. Keep shifting goal posts.

shartora wrote:
So how about YOU explain how guns could be obtained illegally, in the same volume as the US appears to have them, in a country with no guns? This time don't avoid the issue.
You dismiss the Switzerland example because it's just one country while ignoring all the other countries in my chart and in the wiki link you posted. Yet you want me to answer a loaded question as if you've already established a correlation between the rate of legal gun ownership and firearm-related homicides. That's okay, just because you refuse to address one of my points doesn't mean I'll refuse to address yours.

Criminals wouldn't need to bring in a volume of guns that big. They don't need to supply half of the population when they're only selling guns to other thugs who make up much less than half of the population. Now that I've addressed that, maybe you can return the favour and answer a simple non-loaded question.

Is there a correlation between legal gun ownership and firearm-related homicides?



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28 Feb 2012, 9:23 pm

Did anyone notice on the graph that one of the highest homicide rates was in the UK (Scotland) and simultaneously one of the lowest incidents of households with guns?

This seems, at it's core, to disprove the guns make people violent argument.

I honestly think that, in the absence of guns, the people who are going to commit murder, will do so anyway. I live in one of the most violent areas of the world outside of south africa...I live in the 9th ward of New Orleans. I have seen a man murdered, several attempted murders and many violent crimes. Ironically enough... only twice in my life have I seen crime involving guns... one of these was in the UK and one was a "Crooked cop"

Knives, pool cues, a hammer, a car and brass knuckles... but not guns...

Arguably, guns increase the deadliness of any confrontation and crime, but the people that are going to perform these kinds of crimes are going to do it anyway.



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28 Feb 2012, 9:32 pm

FURTHER...

According to the numbers available at www.nationmaster.com the total number of crimes committed in the US and the UK are 11,877,218 (us) and 6,523,706 (uk).

The population of the UK is 62,218,761
The population of the US is 311,591,917

Five times the population but less than twice the crime rate.

That would seem to argue that the prevalence of fire arms is actually a deterrent to crime.

I know that it is in no way correlative evidence, but it does give food for thought. If our gun laws were encouraging crime, it would seem to me that with a population just over 5 times as large, we should have more than 5 times the crime for there to be any supporting evidence to it.