Ohio, Chardon High School shooting, 3 dead.

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Feralucce
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28 Feb 2012, 9:32 pm

FURTHER...

According to the numbers available at www.nationmaster.com the total number of crimes committed in the US and the UK are 11,877,218 (us) and 6,523,706 (uk).

The population of the UK is 62,218,761
The population of the US is 311,591,917

Five times the population but less than twice the crime rate.

That would seem to argue that the prevalence of fire arms is actually a deterrent to crime.

I know that it is in no way correlative evidence, but it does give food for thought. If our gun laws were encouraging crime, it would seem to me that with a population just over 5 times as large, we should have more than 5 times the crime for there to be any supporting evidence to it.



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28 Feb 2012, 9:34 pm

Raptor wrote:
Heavenlyabyss wrote:
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I'm in favor of gun control but is certainly not the core issue.

Why be in favor of it? Where has gun control actually been effective in practice?
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They may be victims as well, but the effort should be focused on preventing bullying,

Hard to put a finger on bullying. It has to be legally defined then you’d have to get teachers and other faculty to take a genuine interest in effectively curbing it. Wrong or not, some people secretly (or not so secretly) favor bullies over their victims for the same reason some people like wolves better than sheep. Call it social Darwinism or whatever but it does exist.
I think it would also help a lot for parents to make sure their kids know how to take care of themselves.
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on preventing guns to be allowed in school,

They are already banned in schools! How much more banned can banned be? Besides, by creating a gun free zone you create a soft target for a massacre to take place un-opposed.



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Well that is too easy, I'm surprised you brought it up. Fewer available guns in a country means there are less guns to be obtained, legally or illegally. It's not rocket science.

How do you go about this “fewer” thing? This country is almost awash in guns compared to others. Banning them doesn’t magically make them go away it just creates a lucrative black market that will make the illicit drug trade look insignificant by comparison.
On top of that, all the death, suffering, and money wasted on the war on drugs will be multiplied at least a few times over. So now you’ve denied people their rights, created a new class of criminal, created a monstrosity of a black market, tied up law enforcement assets chasing their tails, increased the case burden on the courts, taken up prison space and resources, etc…..
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Most relaxed laws does not necessarily mean they have the most guns per head of population.

Logic says that relaxed gun laws do mean more guns. This is a good thing because that gives the would be victims a means of protection against the ever-present human predators of society. This is how it actually works in this country and always will.
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UK has poverty in the cities, it's not a US problem. We also have gang troubles as well. Also have the young black men problems, just the same as you. In fact: we have all of that stuff you've mentioned.
What we don't have is the ferocious death toll from shootings. We ALSO don't have freely available guns. So as both our nations have the same problems they must cancel out each other from the equation, leaving.....?

Comparing the US to the UK is comparing apples to oranges. I’m an American but I’ve been to the UK and it really didn’t take long to notice that there were significant cultural differences.

Also read what I wrote on the first page of this thread.


I really don't give a damn about gun control laws. I just don't care about defending guns. I just don't give a damn so I am not going to give a logical thought-out response to the gun control argument.

As for bullying, it appears I misread. This case seems to have nothing at all to do with bullying so it's not the key point here.

The key point is that this kid has psychological problems unrecognized. Who really knows why he did what he did. Perhaps he is just a sociopath. Nobody really knows but himself.

And if guns are banned in schools, then how did he get in with one? I'm asking an obvious question, the fact is it probably is not very difficult to get a gun into school if one really wanted to. It is one thing to say guns are banned, it is another thing to enforce the rules.

And I'm not a big fan of this wild-wild west phenomenon where everyone needs a gun to defend themselves. I get your point, but it just seems a little absurd to me. Maybe the adults should have access to guns (I don't know, I'm going out on a limb), but certainly not the students.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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29 Feb 2012, 1:03 am

I just read TJ Lane is not a victim of bullying, has friends, makes good grades and this shooting rampage may have been over a girl.



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29 Feb 2012, 2:51 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I just read TJ Lane is not a victim of bullying, has friends, makes good grades and this shooting rampage may have been over a girl.


8O, now that's unusual.


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shartora
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29 Feb 2012, 3:51 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I just read TJ Lane is not a victim of bullying, has friends, makes good grades and this shooting rampage may have been over a girl.


8O, now that's unusual.


Yeah, it's usually just a smack in the mouth.


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29 Feb 2012, 4:38 am

Dailymail: Dressed in a bulletproof vest: Ohio school 'outcast gunman' in first court appearance as THIRD classmate dies of wounds

Short story: Bullied outcast looses it and shoots tormentors.

No surprise for me at least. Why has so little been learned from the WP: Columbine High School massacre in 1999 ..??



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29 Feb 2012, 4:42 am

Good for him. Bullies are as*holes. :lol:


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29 Feb 2012, 4:50 am

That is sad. Its also sad how bullying is ignored in schools.


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Keyman
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29 Feb 2012, 5:00 am

Just keep thinking that if he resolved the issue differently. He would not have to sit in jail for the rest of his life. Which I presume is the legal response.

The actions so far will only result in regular shootings, nothing else. Those that do not learn from history will repeat it.



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29 Feb 2012, 6:07 am

Keyman wrote:
Just keep thinking that if he resolved the issue differently. He would not have to sit in jail for the rest of his life. Which I presume is the legal response. The actions so far will only result in regular shootings, nothing else. Those that do not learn from history will repeat it.

history may not exactly repeat itself, but it surely rhymes. :idea:



shartora
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29 Feb 2012, 6:20 am

Does the US recognise temporary insanity as a plea, because it sounds like that's what it was?

So 3rd bully dies? One less a***hole to waste oxygen. Hope he doesn't waste too many years locked up.


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29 Feb 2012, 7:21 am

Is it just me or are people actually defending the shooter? 8O



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29 Feb 2012, 7:26 am

donnie_darko wrote:
Is it just me or are people actually defending the shooter? 8O


Looks like it. Violence is overrated, but glorified in the US. So what do you expect?



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29 Feb 2012, 7:26 am

@ AoS and Raptor:

Want to know how to really gut a UK based gun control enthusiast? Forget all the other countries, simply graph English violent crime rates over the years as they phased in progressively more stringent gun control and see what the effects of the new laws were. England never really had much of a violent crime rate when you could own a gun there, most if not all of their firearms laws were rammed through by fear-mongering after some high profile shootings rather than as a response to a high crime rate. If gun control really was responsible for lower violent crime rates, you'd expect violence to drop in any country that was enacting more of it while keeping everything else more or less the same, but that's not what you see with England or any other country that has adopted gun control as a crime preventative measure; it simply does not work for that.

Also, knock them off that "gun crime" BS, violence is violence and focusing on the tools is just a smokescreen.

I'm on a WP sabbatical at the moment, but I'm glad to see that the RKBA debate is in good hands in my absence. :D


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Dox47
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29 Feb 2012, 7:29 am

donnie_darko wrote:
Is it just me or are people actually defending the shooter? 8O


It's this forum; label someone a "bully" and half the board will start calling for blood. For the real calls for violence though, there needs to be some animal abuse involved; human life isn't as passionately valued around here.


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eigerpere
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29 Feb 2012, 7:35 am

And why should human life be passionately valued?