Ohio, Chardon High School shooting, 3 dead.

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Feralucce
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29 Feb 2012, 1:07 pm

jojo: agreed...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol ... r-hit.html in this article, a scottish man who had TWO guns with him, cut off a man's genitals and then used a drill on the man's skull...

kind of puts things in perspective


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AceOfSpades
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29 Feb 2012, 1:32 pm

Dox47 wrote:
@ AoS and Raptor:

Want to know how to really gut a UK based gun control enthusiast? Forget all the other countries, simply graph English violent crime rates over the years as they phased in progressively more stringent gun control and see what the effects of the new laws were. England never really had much of a violent crime rate when you could own a gun there, most if not all of their firearms laws were rammed through by fear-mongering after some high profile shootings rather than as a response to a high crime rate. If gun control really was responsible for lower violent crime rates, you'd expect violence to drop in any country that was enacting more of it while keeping everything else more or less the same, but that's not what you see with England or any other country that has adopted gun control as a crime preventative measure; it simply does not work for that.

Also, knock them off that "gun crime" BS, violence is violence and focusing on the tools is just a smokescreen.

I'm on a WP sabbatical at the moment, but I'm glad to see that the RKBA debate is in good hands in my absence. :D
Yeah, these laws are never enacted because of rising crime rates but because of one goddamn incident.

Keyman wrote:
I don't think people defend the shooter. One has to put things in context. Beat up people and they will return the favor, sometimes without proportion.
No, no, no. It is the people jumping to conclusions that he was being bullied that are putting his actions into the wrong context.

Feralucce wrote:
FURTHER...

According to the numbers available at www.nationmaster.com the total number of crimes committed in the US and the UK are 11,877,218 (us) and 6,523,706 (uk).

The population of the UK is 62,218,761
The population of the US is 311,591,917

Five times the population but less than twice the crime rate.

That would seem to argue that the prevalence of fire arms is actually a deterrent to crime.

I know that it is in no way correlative evidence, but it does give food for thought. If our gun laws were encouraging crime, it would seem to me that with a population just over 5 times as large, we should have more than 5 times the crime for there to be any supporting evidence to it.
Exactly. Although I have seen no correlation with gun laws and murder since it is usually crooks murdering other crooks, I've mostly seen less of other crimes.



Feralucce
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29 Feb 2012, 1:43 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
]Exactly. Although I have seen no correlation with gun laws and murder since it is usually crooks murdering other crooks, I've mostly seen less of other crimes.


That is what the numbers seem to indicate.


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Sylkat
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29 Feb 2012, 2:07 pm

This kid, the 2 Columbine shooters, and most of the workplace shooters were GOING to get a gun(s). Somehow, some way. When someone's got that much focused rage/hate, the school WILL be shot up or blown up. If he/they could not acquire guns, they would have learned to make bombs. And they would have used them.
The late, unlamented Mr. Powell did not need guns to murder his sons (and I believe, his wife) and himself.
The late, unlamented Laurie Dann simply mixed poison in fruit juice and placed it in the refrigerator of a fraternity house where she worked.
The Tylenol poisoner? So simple, so random, so effective....
Neither Jack The Ripper or Belle Gunness or Andrei Chikatilo used guns.
Point being, if someone has determined to kill, they will accomplish it. With or without guns. Guns are merely the first choice.

Sylkat



Feralucce
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29 Feb 2012, 2:23 pm

lizzie borden did it with a hatchet...

julius ceasar was murdered with knives...

Murder existed long before fire arms... Guns just make it easier.


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Sylkat
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29 Feb 2012, 2:44 pm

Dear Feralucce, you are absolutely correct, guns are faster, but these people WILL find a way, have been doing so for thousands of years. Gun control may slow them down, but it's back to explosions, arson,mass poisonings( remember the Sri Rajneesh group in Oregon..his followers poisoned the salad bars in local restaurants!)

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eigerpere
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29 Feb 2012, 3:30 pm

I don't think anyone or everyone is capable of such a crime. Most people probably not or we would have an awful lot of dead people. Just be careful who you bully because you never know if that person is capable of giving it back to you in a very lethal way.



Sweetleaf
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29 Feb 2012, 3:33 pm

Sylkat wrote:
This kid, the 2 Columbine shooters, and most of the workplace shooters were GOING to get a gun(s). Somehow, some way. When someone's got that much focused rage/hate, the school WILL be shot up or blown up. If he/they could not acquire guns, they would have learned to make bombs. And they would have used them.
The late, unlamented Mr. Powell did not need guns to murder his sons (and I believe, his wife) and himself.
The late, unlamented Laurie Dann simply mixed poison in fruit juice and placed it in the refrigerator of a fraternity house where she worked.
The Tylenol poisoner? So simple, so random, so effective....
Neither Jack The Ripper or Belle Gunness or Andrei Chikatilo used guns.
Point being, if someone has determined to kill, they will accomplish it. With or without guns. Guns are merely the first choice.

Sylkat


Exactly.


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Sweetleaf
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29 Feb 2012, 3:34 pm

eigerpere wrote:
I don't think anyone or everyone is capable of such a crime. Most people probably not or we would have an awful lot of dead people. Just be careful who you bully because you never know if that person is capable of giving it back to you in a very lethal way.


I would argue that most people could be pushed to the point they would do horrible things.


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eigerpere
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29 Feb 2012, 3:37 pm

It's the bullies usually too who are the ones capable of it and accounts very much for all the aggression. They can dish it out but they can't take it.



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29 Feb 2012, 3:40 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
I don't think anyone or everyone is capable of such a crime. Most people probably not or we would have an awful lot of dead people. Just be careful who you bully because you never know if that person is capable of giving it back to you in a very lethal way.


I would argue that most people could be pushed to the point they would do horrible things.


Most people feel like it, but no, most people probably aren't capable of going the distance to do something like that. As I said, there would be an awful lot more of these crimes if that were true.



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29 Feb 2012, 3:43 pm

eigerpere wrote:
I don't think anyone or everyone is capable of such a crime. Most people probably not or we would have an awful lot of dead people. Just be careful who you bully because you never know if that person is capable of giving it back to you in a very lethal way.

Everyone is capable of such a crime. All that is required are: (1) The means to commit the crime; (2) Sufficient motivation to commit the crime; (3) The opportunities to commit the crime, or the victims to commit the crime against; and (4) The ability to hold and operate a firearm.

Example: The shooting of Kayla Rolland occurred at Buell Elementary School in Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States on February 29, 2000. Six-year-old Dedric Darnell Owens fatally shot six-year old classmate Kayla Renee Rolland in a stairwell before being taken into police custody. The incident began when 6-year-old Dedric Owens brought his uncle's .32-caliber handgun (The Means) to Buell Elementary School. Owens fatally shot 6-year-old Kayla Rolland (The Victim) in the presence of a teacher and 22 students while they were moving up a floor on the stairs (The Opportunity), saying to her "I don't like you" (The Motivation) before pulling the trigger (The Ability).

Due to Dedric Darnell Owens' age (Born on May 5, 1993) and the legal claim that at that age he would have the lack of ability to form intent, Dedric Darnell Owens got away with the murder. In most U.S. states, six-year-olds are not liable for crimes they commit. In an 1893 ruling, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that "children under the age of 7 years could not be guilty of felony, or punished for any capital offense, for within that age the child is conclusively presumed incapable of committing a crime." This is followed in many U.S. states.

Jamelle James, who owned the .32-caliber semiautomatic pistol, eventually pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter and spent 2 years and 5 months in prison.



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29 Feb 2012, 3:47 pm

eigerpere wrote:
It's the bullies usually too who are the ones capable of it and accounts very much for all the aggression. They can dish it out but they can't take it.


Well I would very much like to think that, but I can understand wanting to take out the pain and frustration of things like being bullied and such on the environment/people they feel is/are causing it. I never resorted to such a thing, but that was more due to wanting to stubberonly stick to my morals of not ending up doing something just as bad or worse than things that have been done to me.......rather then the lack of those sorts of dangerous feelings.

Typically and I really do hate to say it the bullies, are the ones pushing the individuals who take things to far in a lot of instances rather then the outcast being treated like an outcast who eventually has had enough. I mean why do you think that girl in my class told me she was surprised I wasn't the psychopath with the gun during the lockdown at my school? That said in that instance the person was not a student and no one really knows what provoked them or anything...so what I say does not apply to all instances.


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29 Feb 2012, 3:50 pm

eigerpere wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
I don't think anyone or everyone is capable of such a crime. Most people probably not or we would have an awful lot of dead people. Just be careful who you bully because you never know if that person is capable of giving it back to you in a very lethal way.


I would argue that most people could be pushed to the point they would do horrible things.


Most people feel like it, but no, most people probably aren't capable of going the distance to do something like that. As I said, there would be an awful lot more of these crimes if that were true.


I think suicide and homocide are the two things anyone could be pushed to commit for the most part......of course under the right conditions. Some people simply never experience the conditions that allow for it, some people do but for whatever reason have enough control not to act on it some people don't have that control...then of course there are the rare individuals who enjoy causing pain and misery for others, or maybe not so rare who knows.

But there is no way for me to prove it so it certainly remains open to debate.


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eigerpere
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29 Feb 2012, 3:51 pm

Fnord wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
I don't think anyone or everyone is capable of such a crime. Most people probably not or we would have an awful lot of dead people. Just be careful who you bully because you never know if that person is capable of giving it back to you in a very lethal way.

Everyone is capable of such a crime. All that is required are: (1) The means to commit the crime; (2) Sufficient motivation to commit the crime; (3) The opportunities to commit the crime, or the victims to commit the crime against; and (4) The ability to hold and operate a firearm.

Example: The shooting of Kayla Rolland occurred at Buell Elementary School in Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States on February 29, 2000. Six-year-old Dedric Darnell Owens fatally shot six-year old classmate Kayla Renee Rolland in a stairwell before being taken into police custody. The incident began when 6-year-old Dedric Owens brought his uncle's .32-caliber handgun (The Means) to Buell Elementary School. Owens fatally shot 6-year-old Kayla Rolland (The Victim) in the presence of a teacher and 22 students while they were moving up a floor on the stairs (The Opportunity), saying to her "I don't like you" (The Motivation) before pulling the trigger (The Ability).

Due to Dedric Darnell Owens' age (Born on May 5, 1993) and the legal claim that at that age he would have the lack of ability to form intent, Dedric Darnell Owens got away with the murder. In most U.S. states, six-year-olds are not liable for crimes they commit. In an 1893 ruling, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that "children under the age of 7 years could not be guilty of felony, or punished for any capital offense, for within that age the child is conclusively presumed incapable of committing a crime." This is followed in many U.S. states.

Jamelle James, who owned the .32-caliber semiautomatic pistol, eventually pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter and spent 2 years and 5 months in prison.


I used to think everyone was just like me too but it just isn't so. You may be capable of those things but it doesn't mean everyone is. You should speak for yourself more often and not assume the whole world of human beings are just the same as you. I used to think everyone was honest. It actually took a while for me to understand that people actually lie for no reason at all. And they destroy other people's live too for no reason and don't care about it. Guns and physical violence isn't the only way people destroy other people. There are also legal ways.



eigerpere
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29 Feb 2012, 3:54 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
I don't think anyone or everyone is capable of such a crime. Most people probably not or we would have an awful lot of dead people. Just be careful who you bully because you never know if that person is capable of giving it back to you in a very lethal way.


I would argue that most people could be pushed to the point they would do horrible things.


Most people feel like it, but no, most people probably aren't capable of going the distance to do something like that. As I said, there would be an awful lot more of these crimes if that were true.


I think suicide and homocide are the two things anyone could be pushed to commit for the most part......of course under the right conditions. Some people simply never experience the conditions that allow for it, some people do but for whatever reason have enough control not to act on it some people don't have that control...then of course there are the rare individuals who enjoy causing pain and misery for others, or maybe not so rare who knows.

But there is no way for me to prove it so it certainly remains open to debate.


I have experienced the conditions in the worst way, more than once, so I know what I'm talking about. We should just speak for ourselves then and that way there will be no arguments. I'm speaking for myself and based on that your statement isn't true.