Shoot first law: What could possibly go wrong?

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John_Browning
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12 Mar 2012, 6:08 pm

--- Kids on the bus were pushing the fight. Both were heard saying they didnt want to fight. Sounds like the crowd, or his buddies, pushed the fight.

He may have said he didn't want to fight but he did follow someone off the bus to start crap.

--- Both were of similar size and weight.

I'm fairly close to the height and weight of Randy Coture but I'd be afraid to fight him.

--- Both dated the same girl at one point.

What does that have to do with a physical threat?

--- Showed the knife to two boys on the bus, not the first time he carried one.

He played show and tell, he didn't brandish it. Haven't you ever showed something off?

---The kid stabbed him 12x after taking a single hit, without punching back. He pushed back once and was stepping back (not fleeing exactly), then stabbed him 12x.

I've pushed people back before and they didn't go away. When they didn't go away I have won with a single decisive hit without getting hit back. I'm too slow to run away.

Up until the killing, it sounds like the kind of routine kid fight that happens anywhere in the world. There is no reason to tell kids they can legally start butchering each other. Crazy.[/quote]

What's crazy is the court of public opinion. There are a lot of factors that could have made the self defense legit, and neither of us have enough evidence to convict or acquit.


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Tadzio
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12 Mar 2012, 6:17 pm

Raptor wrote:
"over 300,000 homicides"

Yeah, might be close to 300k if you include game animals legally taken with firearms to include varmints.
I guess at this pathetic point anything goes....
:roll:


Hi Raptor,

I thought it was poor American English usage, but as with "John_Browning" here*, you apparently also do not consider many other people as being of your species.

"This birthmark on my skin" signifies my Human manifestation, but "What Fools Mere Mortals Be........! !!"

Philotix wrote:
Tadzio wrote:
Ayn Rand wrote the book "The Virtues of Selfishness," so everybody else had better stop playing with her ideas and toys, or you might come across a picture where Greenspan might show her Dollar-Sign burial wreath $$$

I didn' get the paranormal sensation when Atlas Shrugged, but I sure got it when he passed his excess noble gas, and it made Oberon flinch too!! ! Humans are difficult to understand, even after being outside the enchanted forest for a few decades, and I still have plenty of deja vu too, but knowing that randomness is self-contradictory just gives me another paranormal sense of predestination.

Self-esteem's Nathaniel Branden seems to be lost in the user-illusion, and the "Origins of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicarmeral Mind" by Julian Jaynes explores why all the models have brokedown since uncertainity is the lasting human principle with the paranormal sense of self.

My Social Psychology Professor told me that self-esteem was like Maslow's self-actualization, if your employer catches you doing it on company time, you'll probably get fired.


..... wut? I think my brain just exploded.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp2527348 ... t=#2527348

Tadzio

*
John_Browning wrote:
The kid that got off the bus tried to retreat and got ambushed. It's not safe for the defender to stop and think about what is proportional force while they are under attack. Overall, the doctrine is working. Crime is way down compared to before Florida started adopting self defense laws that liberate the defender. Criminals are not a protected species in most states. If they don't want to get killed, then they shouldn't victimize anyone.



John_Browning
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12 Mar 2012, 6:48 pm

Tadzio wrote:
Raptor wrote:
"over 300,000 homicides"

Yeah, might be close to 300k if you include game animals legally taken with firearms to include varmints.
I guess at this pathetic point anything goes....
:roll:


Hi Raptor,

I thought it was poor American English usage, but as with "John_Browning" here*, you apparently also do not consider many other people as being of your species.

"This birthmark on my skin" signifies my Human manifestation, but "What Fools Mere Mortals Be........! !!"

It's about not counting people that made a choice to die or live dangerously. I only wish the statistics segregated categories for people who were involved in criminal activities and accidental self-inflicted stupidity so we could identify how many truly innocent victims there are. People killing themselves, criminals getting killed by anybody (which is useful), and criminals killing genuinely innocent people are 3 different matters that need 3 different sets of statistics to get a accurate picture of what is going on in society.


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simon_says
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12 Mar 2012, 6:59 pm

Obviously we have different views about the nature of civilization and will just have to agree to disagree.



CoMF
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12 Mar 2012, 7:20 pm

simon_says wrote:
Obviously we have different views about the nature of civilization and will just have to agree to disagree.


Fair enough, but I was really hoping that you'd realize that it's infeasible to expect people to defend themselves with fisticuffs when their attacker is larger and/or stronger than them or they're accompanied by "friends," since I surmised that this whole disagreement stemmed from a belief that it is morally objectionable to use a weapon in defense of one's self against an unarmed attacker irregardless of the circumstances.

I also thought that society didn't tolerate violence, though apparently it's more "socially enlightened" to allow predators incapable of reason and compassion to do whatever they want to you and not fight back.

*Sigh* I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.



simon_says
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12 Mar 2012, 7:43 pm

There are self-defense laws in 50 states. Just as Minnesota already had them and felt they didnt need this ambigiously worded NRA backed bill.

Have a nice day.



CoMF
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12 Mar 2012, 8:04 pm

simon_says wrote:
There are self-defense laws in 50 states. Just as Minnesota already had them and felt they didnt need this ambigiously worded NRA backed bill.


Indeed and some are more well-grounded than others. I believe we're also in agreement that Minnesota's bill deserved to die on the Governor's desk, and that that we can further agree that we'd be better off if all lobbying organizations kept their money and their noses out of American politics entirely.

simon_says wrote:
Have a nice day.


And good day to you, sir.



Tadzio
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12 Mar 2012, 9:54 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Tadzio wrote:
Raptor wrote:
"over 300,000 homicides"

Yeah, might be close to 300k if you include game animals legally taken with firearms to include varmints.
I guess at this pathetic point anything goes....
:roll:


Hi Raptor,

I thought it was poor American English usage, but as with "John_Browning" here*, you apparently also do not consider many other people as being of your species.

"This birthmark on my skin" signifies my Human manifestation, but "What Fools Mere Mortals Be........! !!"

It's about not counting people that made a choice to die or live dangerously. I only wish the statistics segregated categories for people who were involved in criminal activities and accidental self-inflicted stupidity so we could identify how many truly innocent victims there are. People killing themselves, criminals getting killed by anybody (which is useful), and criminals killing genuinely innocent people are 3 different matters that need 3 different sets of statistics to get a accurate picture of what is going on in society.


Hi John_Browning,

You have already "segregated", but not just this-or-that "categories":

John_Browning wrote:
CoMF wrote:
The info I'm about to present is somewhat dated, but it's relevant to the "LEO's are more professional in the use of firearms than civilians" debate.

Here are some statistics for the NYPD, one of the world's largest metropolitan police forces, taken from the New York Times:

If you notice, of all the shots fired by officers from 1996 to 2006, only a third of those hit their intended target. Something you might find more disturbing, however, is that officers fired on potentially unarmed suspects and/or were the only ones firing their weapons 78% of the time compared to 75% in 1996.

You would also be interested to know that in 2006, 21% of all shots fired by NYPD officers that year were due to negligent discharges. (Source)

Just some food for thought. :wink:

THAK YOU!
What that map also shows is that the shootings are concentrated in areas with well known drug and gang problems, at times of day when drug transactions and gang activity is at it's highest. You typically don't find law abiding family men (regardless of income) with tax paying jobs and can pass a background check involved in that behavior, so there would have to be another root to the problem other than gun owners in general. Law abiding citizens are in bed or getting ready for woek when 1/3 of shootings happen and another 22% while they are at work. They have some free time in the afternoon, but even without detailed records it can be inferred that the law abiding citizens aren't doing the shootings in the afternoon either since they still have obligations and there is nothing preventing the people that are doing the shooting from shooting in the afternoon as well! Someone who spent their life in a all white town getting startled by a black person being the cause of a shooting is an isolated incident. Someone getting shot over a drug deal gone bad is well documented. Gang members getting singled out and shot is well documented. Attempted robbers and rapists, with clear intentions, getting shot in self-defense is well documented. The overwhelming majority of both illegal and justified shootings alike fall into well-defined categories. Percentage wise, lawful gun owners misidentifying someone or getting trigger happy amounts to an isolated incident.


1. "What that map also shows is that the shootings are concentrated in areas with well known drug and gang problems, at times of day when drug transactions and gang activity is at it's highest. "

Well, "make my day" laws ( ), apply to both the later "plaintiff" and "defendant" (with the "plaintiff" having the government's (king's) concerns also remaining after being "nixed" by "defendant"). The "drug and gang problems" are not the primary concern into the abstraction levels of the "make my day" laws.



2. "You typically don't find law abiding family men (regardless of income) with tax paying jobs and can pass a background check involved in that behavior, so there would have to be another root to the problem other than gun owners in general."

"Make my day" laws are eliminating the restrictions of "Castle Domain" laws. "Family men", "people with tax paying jobs", "people passing background checks", etc., are not different, nor distinguished in the abstractions, though with failure of the ERA, numerical and legal discrimination/prejudice against women remain.


3. "Law abiding citizens are in bed or getting ready for woek when 1/3 of shootings happen and another 22% while they are at work."

"Law abiding citizens", as adults at least, have no bed time laws, out-of-bed laws, nor very distinct "at work" (the expansions go beyond the already expanded Castle Doctrine). Your percentages add up to 55.3%, so where's the other 44.7%??? Or, are your criteria excluding ALL the participants in "those" other 44.7% events as necessarily not being what you take as "Law Abiding Citizens"? Did you have breakfast with Sheriff Joe this morning?


4. "They have some free time in the afternoon, but even without detailed records it can be inferred that the law abiding citizens aren't doing the shootings in the afternoon either since they still have obligations and there is nothing preventing the people that are doing the shooting from shooting in the afternoon as well!"

Other "obligations" preclude the need for "make my day" laws during the afternoon? But, the other "otherwise without sufficient evidence" law abiding citizens are the ones subject of "there is nothing preventing the people that are doing the shooting from shooting in the afternoon as well!"???


5. "Someone who spent their life in a all white town getting startled by a black person being the cause of a shooting is an isolated incident."

It is of particulars of a singularity, in that the event of fatality of the individual is necessarily an isolated incident for that individual. But, you don't want the "counting" of distinct events, since the word "isolated" provides faulty cover sans counts within any system of classifications!! ! "An all white town" and "black person", with the notion of "startled", really sounds like intense segregation being exploited and then some:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXlNsJDQG1U
[youtube]XXXhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXlNsJDQG1UXXX[/youtube]
XXXhttp://cliptank.com/funny-clips/dave ... r.htmlXXXX
XXXhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNu2j1EuWkXXX

6. "Someone getting shot over a drug deal gone bad is well documented."

And, "make my day" laws apply there too.

7. "Gang members getting singled out and shot is well documented."

And, "make my day" laws apply there too. You just analyzed this as an instance yourself. In Florida, no Block Captain to shoot a perhaps weapon carrying teen (indeed, a deadly knife), nor any trigger-happy teachers suspecting an illegal weapon, leads to an opportunity of one single event of the "law" to succeed, versus many earlier events with the same law not be actualized with earlier successful legal homicide stopping the later following of the same law. As in war, the dead don't write the history.

8. "Attempted robbers and rapists, with clear intentions, getting shot in self-defense is well documented."

Intentions are seldom clear, and "make my day" laws are strangely inversible, and biased against women.

9. "The overwhelming majority of both illegal and justified shootings alike fall into well-defined categories."

No they don't. They are forced into vague, over-lapping, and self-contradicting categories, greatly varying around the globe, from state-to-state, etc.

10. "Percentage wise, lawful gun owners misidentifying someone or getting trigger happy amounts to an isolated incident."

No, it's the most frequent incident. Are you claiming that the police isolating the scene of the incident for evidence purposes as nullifying the evidence collected???

http://www.lexisone.com/lx1/caselaw/fre ... 1loc=FCLOW

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0320.htm

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c ... urial%22+7

http://www.libertylawcenter.com/2011/11 ... -colorado/

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/0 ... 32756.html

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/03/possible- ... nt-page-1/

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUT ... INJ.html#1



John_Browning
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12 Mar 2012, 11:36 pm

I've got too much homework to go through all that tonight. If you can cut the links down to statistics from their sources and stories of people who have been ruled to have legal standing to challenge self defense laws, that would help me get to it tomorrow. :)


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cthulhureqiuem
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13 Mar 2012, 12:42 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
The problem is... and I am going to say this very very bluntly.... is that there are many people who are too stupid, cowardly, or incompetent to be trusted carrying a gun.

I don't like guns. I don't have any more to say.

No, I'm not interested in defending gun rights. Guns are silly and primitive weapons.

Part of the problem is it requires no personal interaction. It takes a sociopath to stab a person to death, it only takes a coward to fire a single deadly shot.


absofreakinlutely!



cthulhureqiuem
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13 Mar 2012, 12:47 am

donnie_darko wrote:
Americans love guns because they hate strangers and automatically assume everyone is out to get them.


no, not all of us do... our voices are just drowned out by large and powerful gun lobbyists who continue to make a profit of the deaths and suffering of others. (which ironically are statistically the gun owner, or loved one of the gun owner)



Tadzio
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13 Mar 2012, 1:23 am

John_Browning wrote:
Tadzio wrote:
In the past decade, over 300,000 homicides by criminals using firearms took place in the U.S.A.

Over the same decade, less than a mere 3,000 incidents of these gun deaths were technically found as involving justifiable homicide occurring in the U.S.A.

More than 2,000,000 non-lethal injuries from the criminal usage of firearms were experienced in the U.S.A., while less than 20,000 of these gun injuries were technically found as involving non-criminal injuries occurrences.

More than 25,000,000 criminal assaults with firearms were anonymously reported to government agents, while by criteria of technicalities for legal justifiable assault usages were found allowable for less than a couple hundred thousand.

Most of these criminals tried to justify their criminal actions under the guise of defense, but, still, even when their victim's rights achieved full legal considerations in the courtroom, about 1% of the gun abusing defendants got off with legal trickery & slick lawyers side-stepping true Justice, with preserved "rights" for the perpetrator to attempt self-righteous killings again.

1) The only way you could come up with 300,000 homicides is using doctored data from the crack epidemic and adding suicides on top of that.

2) The 3,000 justifiable homicides would be a hard argument to beat...except for the fact that law abiding citizens are not out to match the criminals' body count, and they are not even out for blood. The idea for lawful gun owners is to drive someone off or hold them for the police. The threat of deadly force provides an incentive for compliance and acts as it's own backup plan if the gun owner runs into life threatening resistance.

3) To get 2,000,000 injuries, you would have to include range/hunting accidents and self-inflicted negligent discharges. But for argument's sake, let's say there were 2,000,000. That still isn't a problem since in the same amount of time since there were at least 6,000,000 people that saved their skin by having a gun accessible. Those figures would be conservative since they were obtained when the crack epidemic wasn't quite over and far fewer people had guns readily accessible for defense.

4) Repeat criminals know to try and claim they were scared since they were taught that by a public defender. Criminals will say anything to try to beat the rap. That has nothing to do with genuine self defense. 1% of defendants getting off is not trickery. The cops don't always arrest the right people and the DA's don't always make good judgment calls on who to prosecute. If everyone arrested got convicted, there is something wrong with a justice system like that. It is fairly common to hear of someone getting tried for their self defense, and juries usually find there was no malice or negligence involved, so not guilty.

Edit: I forgot to add that 25,000,000 assaults with a firearm reported anonymously is a weak claim given there is no way to verify the accuracy of the figures and the credibility of the reports collected.


Hi John_Browning,

The number cited with your edit (25,000,000) is an average over the median for the ten year span from groups claiming to support more laws protecting defensive gun usage & immunity from prosecution/civil liabilities. It's Roger Shattuck's "Irish Bull" logic again, in that "Everybody's doing it, but it's so rare as not to be worried about" (or, only 25 million to 60 million "isolated & singular" incidents over the decade).

This sounds like an explanation of why gun-possessing robbers use guns:
"The threat of deadly force provides an incentive for compliance and acts as it's own backup plan if the gun owner runs into life threatening resistance."

The newspaper comments are diametric to stances of calibre of Skiddles:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... fence.html

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-mar ... ef-details

Meanwhile, desperate robbers are now more likely to use Game Theory for the conclusion to shoot first for incapacitation of victim's defense & till cooperation to means, then execution for no living witnesses and best type of opportunity to claim self defense with any failed clean escape. And now, Iago can even use his stooges multiple of times in open layers!! !

It makes me more concerned about being stereotyped with signs of Asperger's/neurological impairments in public, and while I track my walking on GPS & recorders/relayed cell phone packets (still no panoramic video), that doesn't stop a Dirty Harry from Making His Day over my body.

With all the public service pension plans going bankrupt, and police departments near closure from lack of funding, maybe the exponential growth of "make my day" opportunities is going to be the replacement of law & order with Alpha-Male feudal lords that make their own boundaries by the capacity of their clips.

Tadzio



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13 Mar 2012, 7:32 am

cthulhureqiuem wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Americans love guns because they hate strangers and automatically assume everyone is out to get them.


no, not all of us do... our voices are just drowned out by large and powerful gun lobbyists who continue to make a profit of the deaths and suffering of others. (which ironically are statistically the gun owner, or loved one of the gun owner)


My guns haven't tried to kill me yet. Should I put hidden surveillance equipment in my gun safe to monitor for possible uprisings or conspiracies?
:roll:



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13 Mar 2012, 7:34 am

cthulhureqiuem wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Americans love guns because they hate strangers and automatically assume everyone is out to get them.


no, not all of us do... our voices are just drowned out by large and powerful gun lobbyists who continue to make a profit of the deaths and suffering of others. (which ironically are statistically the gun owner, or loved one of the gun owner)


Okay that was a little bit hyperbolic I admit, but I was half serious. America's love of guns goes hand in hand with America's lack of community and mistrust of strangers and even neighbors.



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13 Mar 2012, 8:35 am

Dox47 wrote:
I find condescension and unearned airs of superiority tiresome in the extreme.
No f*****g kidding! Especially when it comes from people who think they're so civilized and sophisticated. Sorry, I don't equate being pretentious and obnoxious with being civilized and sophisticated.

Tadzio wrote:
It makes me more concerned about being stereotyped with signs of Asperger's/neurological impairments in public, and while I track my walking on GPS & recorders/relayed cell phone packets (still no panoramic video), that doesn't stop a Dirty Harry from Making His Day over my body.
So this is all about you, your fears, and your ego. That's your problem and no one else's.



Tadzio
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13 Mar 2012, 2:45 pm

Raptor wrote:
cthulhureqiuem wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Americans love guns because they hate strangers and automatically assume everyone is out to get them.


no, not all of us do... our voices are just drowned out by large and powerful gun lobbyists who continue to make a profit of the deaths and suffering of others. (which ironically are statistically the gun owner, or loved one of the gun owner)


My guns haven't tried to kill me yet. Should I put hidden surveillance equipment in my gun safe to monitor for possible uprisings or conspiracies?
:roll:


Hi Raptor,

Some unfortunate reports have many hunters claiming they were out-smarted my inanimate objects.

Of course, those "who would have known" explanations for frequent sequences of events leading to "unexpected" discharges, shift the consideration of the level of much "smarts" of the possessor to a greater level assigned to the possessed inanimate object taking the initiative of "unexpected" action.

A video investment might be worth big money on one of those home video doofus TV shows, but it seems to have a strong immoral taint that also should be well-regulated to protect the untypical individual's tendency towards methane abuse in a poorly designed out-house doubling as a safe-&-sane gun-safe.

Tadzio