Page 2 of 5 [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

15 Apr 2012, 8:07 am

I don't think humans are selfish . They just think they are.



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

15 Apr 2012, 8:52 am

DuneyBlues wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdBuK7_g3M&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]


That show is more than an hour of right-wing nonsense. I don't wish to spend an hour of my life listening to garbage.

Can you provide a brief synopsis? Obviously, Liberals are bad. I know that will be a major conclusion of the documentary, and that all else is merely supporting opinions.

Is Liberalism a mental illness? A disease that originated during the so-called Age of Enlightenment? The product of a lack of social order and discipline? Or, what was the line of reasoning? Anything original?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Apr 2012, 9:05 am

ArrantPariah wrote:

Is Liberalism a mental illness? A disease that originated during the so-called Age of Enlightenment? The product of a lack of social order and discipline? Or, what was the line of reasoning? Anything original?


Liberalism is not a mental illness. However it is based on erroneous assumptions among which are:

1., Man is morally perfectible
2. Centralized Political, Social and Economic power can be exercised without corruption
3. Economies can be based on need rather than productivity
4. All but personal property can be socially collectivized. The failure of agriculture in the late an unlamented Soviet Union is clear disproof of this bit of wishful thinking. Farmers will cultivate best land that they own.

We have seen since the end of the 19th century the socialist economies simply cannot match the material performance of more or less capitalist (i.e. market based and private ownership) economies.

These are all errors, mistakes, misjudgments but they are not insane.

ruveyn



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

15 Apr 2012, 9:06 am

According to conservatives if you are not greedy and selfish then you have a warped mind.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Apr 2012, 9:09 am

androbot2084 wrote:
According to conservatives if you are not greedy and selfish then you have a warped mind.


That is a canard. Up to a point profit is the reward of risk taking and hard work.

ruveyn



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

15 Apr 2012, 9:12 am

But conservatives don't like sharing the loot when they make a killing.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Apr 2012, 9:14 am

androbot2084 wrote:
But conservatives don't like sharing the loot when they make a killing.


explain Bill Gate's 100,000,000 $ contribution to humanitarian efforts.

ruveyn



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

15 Apr 2012, 9:16 am

What is that, 1 percent of his fortune?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Apr 2012, 9:17 am

androbot2084 wrote:
What is that, 1 percent of his fortune?



Closer to ten percent, a tithe. And who are you do judge what is a fair share? The example I gave proves your prior assertion is false.

ruveyn



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

15 Apr 2012, 9:24 am

ruveyn wrote:
1., Man is morally perfectible

Is this indeed a central tenet of liberalism? I suppose that the Conservative perspective is that man is not morally perfect, except by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

ruveyn wrote:
2. Centralized Political, Social and Economic power can be exercised without corruption

Corruption is an indelible part of the human condition.

ruveyn wrote:
3. Economies can be based on need rather than productivity

Economies are based on needs, aren't they? If you're producing something that no-one needs, then improvements in productivity will be a waste.

ruveyn wrote:
4. All but personal property can be socially collectivized. The failure of agriculture in the late an unlamented Soviet Union is clear disproof of this bit of wishful thinking. Farmers will cultivate best land that they own.

Or lease. Farms can be regarded as personal property. Were Israel's farming communes successful?

ruveyn wrote:
We have seen since the end of the 19th century the socialist economies simply cannot match the material performance of more or less capitalist (i.e. market based and private ownership) economies.

There was a time when the USA feared the advancing material performance of the Soviet economy.



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

15 Apr 2012, 9:29 am

Bill Gates is so filthy rich that anything less than 90 percent should not be considered a tithe.



edgewaters
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,427
Location: Ontario

15 Apr 2012, 9:32 am

Why do Americans use the word "liberal" incorrectly? Liberalism existed even before the US did, and was - and still is - understood by the entire world to mean something quite different. The US itself is a product of a liberal revolution.

It seems very Orwellian, the way the right in the US perverts language to confuse and erase history.



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

15 Apr 2012, 9:43 am

edgewaters wrote:
Why do Americans use the word "liberal" incorrectly? Liberalism existed even before the US did, and was - and still is - understood by the entire world to mean something quite different. The US itself is a product of a liberal revolution.

It seems very Orwellian, the way the right in the US perverts language to confuse and erase history.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXk4P12p1tU[/youtube]



edgewaters
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,427
Location: Ontario

15 Apr 2012, 9:45 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
There was a time when the USA feared the advancing material performance of the Soviet economy.


True. In the 1970s, key Soviet industrial indicators like steel production surpassed the US. But, the Soviets had two big problems.

First, they were a land power in Asia, meaning they had to maintain a conventional army 3-4 times the size of the US. The US managed with a relatively small army and a very large stockpile of ICBMs, because it had the oceans to protect it and no land powers nearby who were any threat. The cost of maintaining the Soviet army, and trying to keep up with the US on the seas, in space, and in ICBMs was simply too much.

Second, the Soviet collapse was preceded by a massive oil shortage. The Soviet Union itself was consuming more oil than it produced - and it was exporting oil to its Eastern satellites at the same time. When they shut the taps off, all hell broke loose, especially in industrialized areas like Poland and East Germany.

Economic systems that don't work, can't last for 70 years. That being said, the Soviet system left much to be desired relative to the Western system that used to exist at that time. Particularly in terms of rights and freedoms (many of which we don't have anymore, either).



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

15 Apr 2012, 11:39 am

The Soviets were also big believers in nuclear power.



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

15 Apr 2012, 12:28 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Why do Americans use the word "liberal" incorrectly? Liberalism existed even before the US did, and was - and still is - understood by the entire world to mean something quite different. The US itself is a product of a liberal revolution.

It seems very Orwellian, the way the right in the US perverts language to confuse and erase history.


The correct term is socialist or social-democratic. When I learned political ideologies, "liberalism" was kind of like being a libertarian with a conscience.