Possible explanation for Liberalism

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TM
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15 Apr 2012, 12:28 pm

edgewaters wrote:

Why do Americans use the word "liberal" incorrectly? Liberalism existed even before the US did, and was - and still is - understood by the entire world to mean something quite different. The US itself is a product of a liberal revolution.

It seems very Orwellian, the way the right in the US perverts language to confuse and erase history.

The correct term is socialist or social-democratic. When I learned political ideologies, "liberalism" was kind of like being a libertarian with a conscience.

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15 Apr 2012, 2:10 pm

Duney, do you even think for yourself or is the entirety of your knowledge based on Youtube crackpots, Wikipedia and Serbian nationalist web pages? How unfortunate you had to get your other [sh***y] thread closed before I could tear your "arguments" there a new one

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15 Apr 2012, 2:16 pm

TM wrote:

edgewaters wrote:

The correct term is socialist or social-democratic. When I learned political ideologies, "liberalism" was kind of like being a libertarian with a conscience.

The term I'd use is social liberalism. I certainly wouldn't call American liberals socialists, or even social democrats. Most are essentially corporatists. To find American social democrats you have to look to such "far-left" organizations as the Green Party.

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15 Apr 2012, 2:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

Is Liberalism a mental illness? A disease that originated during the so-called Age of Enlightenment? The product of a lack of social order and discipline? Or, what was the line of reasoning? Anything original?

Liberalism is not a mental illness. However it is based on erroneous assumptions among which are:

1., Man is morally perfectible
2. Centralized Political, Social and Economic power can be exercised without corruption
3. Economies can be based on need rather than productivity
4. All but personal property can be socially collectivized. The failure of agriculture in the late an unlamented Soviet Union is clear disproof of this bit of wishful thinking. Farmers will cultivate best land that they own.

We have seen since the end of the 19th century the socialist economies simply cannot match the material performance of more or less capitalist (i.e. market based and private ownership) economies.

These are all errors, mistakes, misjudgments but they are not insane.

ruveyn

What separates has nothing to do with erroneous assumptions. It has to do with conflicting values regarding justice. It also has to do with what kind of society we would rather live in personally. Neither liberalism nor conservatism are strictly utilitarian. Either society can "work" in one way or another. Whether people are happy with the a particular political/economic setup is an entirely different matter. I mean, Feudalism "worked" for quite some time.

Your assumptions are all strawmen that don't apply to the majority of liberals in such a black-and-white matter anyways.

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15 Apr 2012, 2:20 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

Bill Gates is so filthy rich that anything less than 90 percent should not be considered a tithe.

You give away half of yours before you tell Gates to give away 90 percent of his.

Is this hypocrisy I am seeing?

ruveyn

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15 Apr 2012, 2:47 pm

edgewaters wrote:

They don't use it incorrectly. This is the US use of the word. Making a claim that a large group of people is using a word incorrectly is pretty confused.

It's also not a fault of the right. The left started calling themselves "liberals" first. The right simply tried to make it into a slur.

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15 Apr 2012, 2:48 pm

marshall wrote:

I am glad somebody touched that mess. I considered it, but I just shook my head and walked away.

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15 Apr 2012, 2:57 pm

The only liberalism I like is Classical Liberalism you don't see that much in America I am glad I am a registered indepenent in America it's to much of a war between the Left and the Right wingers it gets annoying.

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15 Apr 2012, 3:28 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

Bill Gates is so filthy rich that anything less than 90 percent should not be considered a tithe.

I don't like Bill Gates because of his monopolistic, crappy software company.

That said, you could not have picked a worse target to complain about, if you want to complain about rich people not being generous with their money. Not only has Bill been generous with his money, he's persuaded other filthy rich people to join him and be generous with their money too.

That's like picking out Steve Jobs, and complaining that he wasn't concerned enough about the elegance of his products' user interfaces.

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ruveyn
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15 Apr 2012, 4:20 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

Bill Gates is so filthy rich that anything less than 90 percent should not be considered a tithe.

I don't like Bill Gates because of his monopolistic, crappy software company.

.

So don't do business with him. Problem solved.

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15 Apr 2012, 4:34 pm

ruveyn wrote:

So don't do business with him. Problem solved.

I don't do business with him.

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ruveyn
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15 Apr 2012, 4:36 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

So don't do business with him. Problem solved.

I don't do business with him.

Then why are you complaining? If you don't buy his stuff that nasty monopolist is doing you no harm.

ruveyn

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15 Apr 2012, 4:38 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

I don't do business with him.

No, just do business with another nasty monopolist - Apple.

ruveyn
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15 Apr 2012, 4:39 pm

Tequila wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

I don't do business with him.

No, just do business with another nasty monopolist - Apple.

There are many operating systems and many manufacturers of computers. What monopoly?

ruveyn

TM
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15 Apr 2012, 4:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

I don't do business with him.

No, just do business with another nasty monopolist - Apple.

There are many operating systems and many manufacturers of computers. What monopoly?

ruveyn

People love using the wrong words to try and diminish and ruin the position of people they disagree with.

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15 Apr 2012, 4:49 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Then why are you complaining?

I wasn't complaining, just pointing out that I'm not a Bill Gates fanboy.

Quote:

If you don't buy his stuff that nasty monopolist is doing you no harm.

That's not true. Do you want me to go over all the many ways Microsoft has harmed the software industry in general or the things it has done that impact me personally? I could, but be warned, it's a rather long list.

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