Page 1 of 5 [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

DuneyBlues
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
Location: Enjoying Solitary Confinement

13 Apr 2012, 8:08 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdBuK7_g3M&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]


_________________
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain


Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

13 Apr 2012, 8:10 pm

DuneyBlues wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdBuK7_g3M&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]


Hmm Marxism was a political blunder.



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

13 Apr 2012, 8:32 pm

Have you even tried asking a liberal why they are a liberal? If they give you a sensible answer, why do you not believe them? Liberals are people, you know. We just have a different set of values to conservatives.



Gravechylde
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 196
Location: Funeralopolis

13 Apr 2012, 8:59 pm

tl;dw translation:
If people in the western world convert to atheism, it will immediately turn into a communist society.


_________________
I speak with a whisper and feel with a shout


Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

13 Apr 2012, 9:02 pm

Gravechylde wrote:
tl;dw translation:
If people in the western world convert to atheism, it will immediately turn into a communist society.


Not entirely so it would most likely turn into a fasicst country.



Gravechylde
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 196
Location: Funeralopolis

13 Apr 2012, 9:14 pm

Joker wrote:
Gravechylde wrote:
tl;dw translation:
If people in the western world convert to atheism, it will immediately turn into a communist society.


Not entirely so it would most likely turn into a fasicst country.

The video basically says that since marxism failed as an economic/political system, the people who support it then started to inject the marxist principles into the social culture, in order convert all of us into marxists.

I personally think that even though they may be trying to do that, I doubt they will be successful in making people change their economic/political views. And if we do have any significant change in our political system anytime in the near future, I believe that it will be normal people becoming more involved by way of the internet (closer to a direct democracy).


_________________
I speak with a whisper and feel with a shout


Last edited by Gravechylde on 13 Apr 2012, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

13 Apr 2012, 9:16 pm

Gravechylde wrote:
Joker wrote:
Gravechylde wrote:
tl;dw translation:
If people in the western world convert to atheism, it will immediately turn into a communist society.


Not entirely so it would most likely turn into a fasicst country.

The video basically says that since marxism failed as an economic/political system, the people who support it then started to inject the marxist principles into the social culture, in order convert all of us into marxists.

I personally think that even though they may be trying to do that, I doubt they will be successful in making people change their economic/political views. And if we do have any significant change in our political system anytime in the near future, I believe that it will be normal people becoming more involved by way of the internet (closer to a true democracy).


Well true but I think the Neurodiversity movement can help bring about real chagne in our country to we are a very gifted community of apsies on WP.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

13 Apr 2012, 9:37 pm

Anyone notice how they read all the "Marxist" quotes with various sinister "foreign" sounding voices? :roll: What a contrived joke of a documentary. It doesn't present "conservatism" as anything more than a vaguely coherent longing for "the good old days" that never really existed. Also, I couldn't quite see the oh-so-obvious connection between boomer inspired hippie decadence and creeping Stalinism poised to destroy western civilization.

Obviously the plot to turn this...

Image

into this...

Image

failed a long time ago.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Apr 2012, 6:43 am

Declension wrote:
Have you even tried asking a liberal why they are a liberal? If they give you a sensible answer, why do you not believe them? Liberals are people, you know. We just have a different set of values to conservatives.


most liberals are completely sincere in their belief that the State (i.e. government) is or should be the central mechanism of regulation and guidance in the society. The liberals distrust self interest on the part of individuals and feel we must all make some sacrifices for the General Good. The liberals in biased toward collective thinking. They are rankled by strong individualist tendencies.

People like me deny the existence of the Social Contract and the General Good. There is my good and your good and if they happen to coincide here and there, that is just happenstance. Liberals also believe the man is perfectible. I deny it most strongly. Human nature is genetically wired into us. Humans can learn self control (we all must) but we cannot change our underlying nature. We are natural born egotists and selfishness is in us, as deep as our bone marrow. That does not mean we have to be jack-asses. We can teach ourselves to be polite if conditions permit politeness.

ruveyn



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

14 Apr 2012, 7:11 am

I tend to think that a lot of the "collective movement" and the ideologies that sprang from them overly social-focused. It more or less attempts to arrange everything based on how it ideally should be rather than what is the most practical way of doing things. There also seems to be a tendency towards "The end justifies the means" thinking and "violence and intolerance is fine as long as it is in accordance with our principles" hypocrisy.

For instance, its morally wrong for a far right wing group to protest immigration, but its morally fine to throw bricks at right wingers. Overall, I tend to think there is a thought-disorder at work here or at least an ideological indoctrination which makes people unable to look at their own ideology with a critical eye . If you look at animal rights activists that throw paint on people wearing leather and/or fur, the result is just that the person who gets paint on their leather or fur clothing buys more leather or fur clothing, so in essence PETA is driving up the demand for fur coats.

If you limit bonuses and put the financial industry in a straight-jacket, they'll just find a way around it because the smartest and most goal oriented people rarely work for the government or "leftist" organizations, they work where they can gain the most return on their effort.



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

14 Apr 2012, 7:18 am

ruveyn wrote:
most liberals are completely sincere in their belief that the State (i.e. government) is or should be the central mechanism of regulation and guidance in the society. The liberals distrust self interest on the part of individuals and feel we must all make some sacrifices for the General Good. The liberals in biased toward collective thinking. They are rankled by strong individualist tendencies.

Liberals also believe the man is perfectible.


I'm impressed! :P That's actually a pretty good summary of what I believe. You know your enemy very well.

I personally think that history is a testament to the idea that man is perfectible. We used to all be cavemen, if you remember. Now we spend our free time discussing political philosophy with people living on the other side of the world using a vast information network.



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

14 Apr 2012, 7:21 am

Declension wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
most liberals are completely sincere in their belief that the State (i.e. government) is or should be the central mechanism of regulation and guidance in the society. The liberals distrust self interest on the part of individuals and feel we must all make some sacrifices for the General Good. The liberals in biased toward collective thinking. They are rankled by strong individualist tendencies.

Liberals also believe the man is perfectible.

I personally think that history is a testament to the idea that man is perfectible. We used to all be cavemen, if you remember. Now we spend our free time discussing political philosophy with people living on the other side of the world using a vast information network.


The reason for that is that it was in everyone's individual interest to agree to give up a small amount of freedom for more security. Man hasn't gotten better in any shape, form or way, we've just gotten better at doing what we've always done, namely improving things in our self interest. The whole reason for our development since ca 1500 is that the "State" or "king" stopped taking everything from the creator of those things and decided to let creativity prosper.



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

14 Apr 2012, 7:26 am

TM wrote:
Man hasn't gotten better in any shape, form or way


I think you're just wrong about that. I think that a modern cosmopolitan person would seem like an Vulcan to a person from 2000 years ago. Our brains are wired differently. We have a different ontology, and different priorities.

TM wrote:
The whole reason for our development since ca 1500 is that the "State" or "king" stopped taking everything from the creator of those things and decided to let creativity prosper.


Too simplistic. The state is often the tool by which the common man has been able to benefit from the advances in intellectual life and technology. I support democracy, but if the majority of the people want the state to play a certain role, then it ought to play that role. In fact, there shouldn't even be a "but" in that last sentence; there should be an "and"! That's what democracy is all about!



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

14 Apr 2012, 7:38 am

Declension wrote:
TM wrote:
Man hasn't gotten better in any shape, form or way


I think you're just wrong about that. I think that a modern cosmopolitan person would seem like an Vulcan to a person from 2000 years ago. Our brains are wired differently. We have a different ontology, and different priorities.

TM wrote:
The whole reason for our development since ca 1500 is that the "State" or "king" stopped taking everything from the creator of those things and decided to let creativity prosper.


Too simplistic. The state is often the tool by which the common man has been able to benefit from the advances in intellectual life and technology. I support democracy, but if the majority of the people want the state to play a certain role, then it ought to play that role. In fact, there shouldn't even be a "but" in that last sentence; there should be an "and"! That's what democracy is all about!


We like to think we are different but we're not, the appearance only exists because the immediate needs for the most part are satisfied. Put 20 people in a Lord of the Flies situation and we're back 2000 years pretty quickly.

I'm against a majority tyranny for many reasons, the primary one being that if you want to find the median IQ of a group, you take the IQ of the person with the lowest IQ and divide it among the whole group. Groupthink not only makes people more stupid, it also marginalizes the true number ones amongst us, just about every innovation we've seen is the result of one person's vision. I'm anti-democracy, I don't think voting should be a right, I think it should be a privilege that people need to earn by among other things taking a political aptitude test and an IQ test. I'm a fan of a meritocracy where the abilities of a person decides social standing, not merely being a person.



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

14 Apr 2012, 7:45 am

TM wrote:
We like to think we are different but we're not, the appearance only exists because the immediate needs for the most part are satisfied. Put 20 people in a Lord of the Flies situation and we're back 2000 years pretty quickly.


This is old Christian propaganda. It just isn't true.


Quote:
Luis Urzúa (54), the shift foreman who immediately recognized the gravity of the situation and the difficulty of any rescue attempt. He gathered the men in a secure "refuge" then organized them and their meager resources to cope with a long-term survival situation.[50][51] Just after the incident, he led three men to scout the tunnel. After confirming the situation, he made detailed maps of the area to aid the rescue effort. He directed the underground aspects of the rescue operation and coordinated closely with engineers on the surface over the teleconference links.[52][53]
Florencio Ávalos (31), second in command of the group, assisted Urzúa organizing the men. Because of his experience, physical fitness and emotional stability, he was selected as the first miner to ride the rescue capsule to the surface in case of complications during the 15 minute ascent in the claustrophobic shaft. Naturally shy, he served as the camera operator for videos sent up to the miner's families. He was trapped along with his younger brother Renan.[53]
Yonni Barrios (50), became the medic of the trapped miners, monitoring their health, giving vaccinations, and providing detailed medical reports to the team of doctors on the surface. His fellow miners jokingly referred to him as "Dr. House", an American TV medical drama character.[34][51]
Mario Gómez (63), the eldest miner, became the religious leader of the group, organizing a chapel with a shrine containing statues of saints as well as aiding counseling efforts by psychologists on the surface.[51][53]
José Henríquez (54), a preacher and a miner for 33 years, he served as the miners' pastor and organized daily prayers.[53]
Mario Sepúlveda (40), served as the energetic host of the miner's video journals that were sent to the surface to reassure the world that they were doing well. The local media dubbed him "Super Mario" after the Super Mario Bros. video game for his energy, wit and humor.[53][54][55]
Ariel Ticona (29), served as the group's communications specialist, maintaining the underground portion of the telephone and videoconferencing systems sent down by the surface team.[53]


TM wrote:
I'm against a majority tyranny for many reasons, the primary one being that if you want to find the median IQ of a group, you take the IQ of the person with the lowest IQ and divide it among the whole group. Groupthink not only makes people more stupid, it also marginalizes the true number ones amongst us, just about every innovation we've seen is the result of one person's vision. I'm anti-democracy, I don't think voting should be a right, I think it should be a privilege that people need to earn by among other things taking a political aptitude test and an IQ test. I'm a fan of a meritocracy where the abilities of a person decides social standing, not merely being a person.


People like you are enemies of the Enlightenment, not defenders of it. You are a barbarian, not an elite intellectual.



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

14 Apr 2012, 8:21 am

Declension wrote:
TM wrote:
We like to think we are different but we're not, the appearance only exists because the immediate needs for the most part are satisfied. Put 20 people in a Lord of the Flies situation and we're back 2000 years pretty quickly.


This is old Christian propaganda. It just isn't true.


Quote:
Luis Urzúa (54), the shift foreman who immediately recognized the gravity of the situation and the difficulty of any rescue attempt. He gathered the men in a secure "refuge" then organized them and their meager resources to cope with a long-term survival situation.[50][51] Just after the incident, he led three men to scout the tunnel. After confirming the situation, he made detailed maps of the area to aid the rescue effort. He directed the underground aspects of the rescue operation and coordinated closely with engineers on the surface over the teleconference links.[52][53]
Florencio Ávalos (31), second in command of the group, assisted Urzúa organizing the men. Because of his experience, physical fitness and emotional stability, he was selected as the first miner to ride the rescue capsule to the surface in case of complications during the 15 minute ascent in the claustrophobic shaft. Naturally shy, he served as the camera operator for videos sent up to the miner's families. He was trapped along with his younger brother Renan.[53]
Yonni Barrios (50), became the medic of the trapped miners, monitoring their health, giving vaccinations, and providing detailed medical reports to the team of doctors on the surface. His fellow miners jokingly referred to him as "Dr. House", an American TV medical drama character.[34][51]
Mario Gómez (63), the eldest miner, became the religious leader of the group, organizing a chapel with a shrine containing statues of saints as well as aiding counseling efforts by psychologists on the surface.[51][53]
José Henríquez (54), a preacher and a miner for 33 years, he served as the miners' pastor and organized daily prayers.[53]
Mario Sepúlveda (40), served as the energetic host of the miner's video journals that were sent to the surface to reassure the world that they were doing well. The local media dubbed him "Super Mario" after the Super Mario Bros. video game for his energy, wit and humor.[53][54][55]
Ariel Ticona (29), served as the group's communications specialist, maintaining the underground portion of the telephone and videoconferencing systems sent down by the surface team.[53]


TM wrote:
I'm against a majority tyranny for many reasons, the primary one being that if you want to find the median IQ of a group, you take the IQ of the person with the lowest IQ and divide it among the whole group. Groupthink not only makes people more stupid, it also marginalizes the true number ones amongst us, just about every innovation we've seen is the result of one person's vision. I'm anti-democracy, I don't think voting should be a right, I think it should be a privilege that people need to earn by among other things taking a political aptitude test and an IQ test. I'm a fan of a meritocracy where the abilities of a person decides social standing, not merely being a person.


People like you are enemies of the Enlightenment, not defenders of it. You are a barbarian, not an elite intellectual.


You picked a questionable example , I did say "Lord of the Flies" situation right, not "People trapped in a situation that is externally monitored, where all their basic needs are met and where cooperation aligns with the best interest of each individual". A "Lord of the Flies" situation is when cooperation is not aligned with the best interest of the individual or subgroups within the group. A Lord of the Flies situation, would be something like you and me trapped somewhere with no external incentive to modify our behavior, with food supplies that are adequate for one of us to live, but questionable in quantity for the two of us both to live.

Your second reply is the exact reason why your collectivist stance is morally abhorrent because you are in support of squashing the people who disagree with you. It's a "If you do not agree with my opinion, which according to my moral compass is better than yours, then you are a barbarian" stance whereas my stance is "I may not like your opinion, your morals or any of your values, but I'll let you have them provided that you do not try to force them on me through whatever means you deem needed and acceptable by your moral standard." The Enlightenment was about peoples rights vis a vis a State or controlling power, the very same rights collectivists such as yourself try to marginalize at every point.

Its funny how leftist collectivists behave like Christians just with a different religion.