Adults with Aspergers Seem 'Normal' to Me
Sweetleaf
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21 Apr 2012, 10:01 am
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Okay let me try to explain this - in psychology there are two types of clinical disorder. There is 'internalising' disorders and 'externalsing' disorders.
Internalizing disorders refer to dysfunction within the self so for instances depression and anxiety. The problem is within the person.
Externalising disorders refer to when the dysfunction comes from externalities most often a result of a persons behavior. This includes personality disorders, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder etc.
It is my understanding that AS is an external disorder. One should be able to readily observe the way a person acts is different to others.
Internalizing disorders refer to dysfunction within the self so for instances depression and anxiety. The problem is within the person.
Externalising disorders refer to when the dysfunction comes from externalities most often a result of a persons behavior. This includes personality disorders, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder etc.
It is my understanding that AS is an external disorder. One should be able to readily observe the way a person acts is different to others.
Actually personality disorders are not caused by the persons behavior, but rather are part of what causes the persons behavior........Also with depression and anxiety the problem can be within the person more specifically their bran and the way the brain chemicals are working, but those can also be contributed to by external factors.
I took abnormal psychology and never heard internalizing disorders or externalizing disorders....I guess I will have to look that up.
Firstly, I never said that personality disorders are caused by the persons behavior. Psychological constructs are not necessary real entities. Psychologists observe a psychological phenomena and give it a label so I don't know how a person's behavior be a result of a label. Also that is a circular aguement -why does that person behave that way because he/she has a personality disorder, why does that person have a personality disorder because he/she behaves that way. You may also want to research Reification of psychological constructs.
Also there is no evidence that that brain chemicals are what CAUSES depression. We know that they are linked - but there is no evidence that it causes depression.
You included personality disorders in...external disorders which you said are brought on by externalities most often as a result their behavior. I do not think that is quite accurate so yes I am questioning it.
Also if those where commonly used terms in psychology I should have heard of them in psychology 101, or maybe 102 but certainly Abnormal Psychology, hence why I'm questioning those terms. And no behavior does not cause personality disorders, it is typically the other way around.....a personality disorder can bring great distress to the person who has it, its not typically something they brought on them self.
Also there actually is evidence lack of certain chemicals contributes to depression, there are also other factors...but that is actually one of them and they do have evidence.
Okay fair enough, I dont think I expressed myself properly there. Externalising disorders are external in the sense that it is their behaviors that is the source of their dysfunction but yeah I'm not sure if it is commonly use but feel free to look it up.
Also there is no evidence that depression is a cause of a chemical imbalance - we just know that they are linked.
I never used the word cause...I said chemical imbalance can 'contribute' to depression, they do have studies that show that...but that makes it a factor not the cause.
the word contribution implies a level of causality
Yes it does, but saying chemical imbalance can contribute to depression is not the same as saying it's what 'causes' depression, it is just one factor there are others to.
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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 21 Apr 2012, 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Verdandi
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21 Apr 2012, 10:03 am
melanieeee wrote:
You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.
I would say that the statement in question is wrong. I mean, it is true that if you take someone with social impairments out of social situations, their impairments aren't relevant, but they aren't gone. Why would anyone want to observe social impairment in a solitary person in the first place?
Anyway, the diagnostic criteria for PDD-NOS, autism, and AS are all written for children, which means that it is somewhat problematic applying them directly to adults. This is one reason why adult diagnosis often involves getting as complete a childhood history as possible.
Ideally, there should be criteria for adults or the existing criteria should account for adults.
Sweetleaf
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21 Apr 2012, 10:06 am
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?
Then why do I and other adults still have AS symptoms. Just because the adult aspies you've interacted did not seem to does not mean you can generalize us all based on them.
I don't mean to generalize. It's like separation anxiety and bed wetting. Separation anxiety and bed wetting can occur in adults but it is predominate in children.
Right and most recent research shows most autistic/aspie children do not become non-autistic upon reaching adulthood, nor do they typically disappear off the face of the earth....so how would it be predominate in children?
Do you mean studies have shown that all aspies still meet criteria (if they have been diagnosed as a child) into adulthood. I would like to see these studies.
But that was not what I was not the context I used that statement anyway or at least intended. It was suppose to be in response to my observations that aspies behave normally.
No, I mean many of us still have symptoms......and many who might not appear to are just working very hard to conceal it, but when it comes down to it aspergers/autism has to do with different brain wiring we're born with, so it would make sense most children who are autistic or aspie are still going to be as adults.
You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.
Yes and since people on the spectrum have neurological differences that separate them from neurotypicals, it would make sense that though neurons change through development ours will probably develop differently than an neurotypicals. Also neurological difference from my understanding implies brain difference. And where are you getting that autism is defined by behaviors alone?
Also I don't think it's up to you if it's clinically significant, that is up to the psychiatrist/mental health professional doing the diagnosing. Also no crap leaving a child by their self they wont have observable social impairment, that's because social interaction takes two individuals not a lone one.
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We won't go back.
21 Apr 2012, 10:18 am
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?
Then why do I and other adults still have AS symptoms. Just because the adult aspies you've interacted did not seem to does not mean you can generalize us all based on them.
I don't mean to generalize. It's like separation anxiety and bed wetting. Separation anxiety and bed wetting can occur in adults but it is predominate in children.
Right and most recent research shows most autistic/aspie children do not become non-autistic upon reaching adulthood, nor do they typically disappear off the face of the earth....so how would it be predominate in children?
Do you mean studies have shown that all aspies still meet criteria (if they have been diagnosed as a child) into adulthood. I would like to see these studies.
But that was not what I was not the context I used that statement anyway or at least intended. It was suppose to be in response to my observations that aspies behave normally.
No, I mean many of us still have symptoms......and many who might not appear to are just working very hard to conceal it, but when it comes down to it aspergers/autism has to do with different brain wiring we're born with, so it would make sense most children who are autistic or aspie are still going to be as adults.
You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.
Yes and since people on the spectrum have neurological differences that separate them from neurotypicals, it would make sense that though neurons change through development ours will probably develop differently than an neurotypicals. Also neurological difference from my understanding implies brain difference. And where are you getting that autism is defined by behaviors alone?
Also I don't think it's up to you if it's clinically significant, that is up to the psychiatrist/mental health professional doing the diagnosing. Also no crap leaving a child by their self they wont have observable social impairment, that's because social interaction takes two individuals not a lone one.
DSM is where I am getting that AS is defined by behaviors alone. At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.
Last edited by melanieeee on 21 Apr 2012, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sweetleaf
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21 Apr 2012, 10:19 am
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?
Then why do I and other adults still have AS symptoms. Just because the adult aspies you've interacted did not seem to does not mean you can generalize us all based on them.
I don't mean to generalize. It's like separation anxiety and bed wetting. Separation anxiety and bed wetting can occur in adults but it is predominate in children.
Right and most recent research shows most autistic/aspie children do not become non-autistic upon reaching adulthood, nor do they typically disappear off the face of the earth....so how would it be predominate in children?
Do you mean studies have shown that all aspies still meet criteria (if they have been diagnosed as a child) into adulthood. I would like to see these studies.
But that was not what I was not the context I used that statement anyway or at least intended. It was suppose to be in response to my observations that aspies behave normally.
No, I mean many of us still have symptoms......and many who might not appear to are just working very hard to conceal it, but when it comes down to it aspergers/autism has to do with different brain wiring we're born with, so it would make sense most children who are autistic or aspie are still going to be as adults.
You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.
Yes and since people on the spectrum have neurological differences that separate them from neurotypicals, it would make sense that though neurons change through development ours will probably develop differently than an neurotypicals. Also neurological difference from my understanding implies brain difference. And where are you getting that autism is defined by behaviors alone?
Also I don't think it's up to you if it's clinically significant, that is up to the psychiatrist/mental health professional doing the diagnosing. Also no crap leaving a child by their self they wont have observable social impairment, that's because social interaction takes two individuals not a lone one.
DSM? At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.
Where did I say everyone has a disorder, I personally have a disorder, and I don't appreciate the assumption I must have magically grown out of it when I reached adulthood, because you think it's just a childhood disorder.
Also according to even the DSM autism and aspergers is more than behavior....sensory overload is not a behavior, being unable to process all the social cues in social interaction is not a behavior, many of the symptoms are not behaviors. Some symptoms are more observable through behavior but no most of us cannot just be behaviorally modified into neurotypicals.
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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 21 Apr 2012, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Verdandi
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21 Apr 2012, 10:19 am
Also, "if you are able to conceal, it is not clinically significant" is not true. And I will bring fibromyalgia into this again, because I have that too:
I can conceal fibromyalgia, and I do conceal it a lot of the time. I just am not in the habit of displaying the effects of chronic pain. This does not mean the pain is not clinically significant. It means I don't show it. And it does take effort to not show it.
As far as AS, it takes effort to try to "normalize" one's social presentation. I don't think I ever truly come across as "normal" but I do some things socially around other people. Maintaining that effort is exhausting and means that I don't really socialize with anyone for more than 10-15 minutes unless the topic is something I have a personal interest and/or a personal stake in. My impairment doesn't go away. Even if I do appear to interact like an NT, I am not interacting like an NT. I am instead trying to appear as if I interact like an NT. This is exhausting. It is not just exhausting because I am trying to force how I interact/communicate into a mold that is not natural or comfortable to me, but because all of autism's other features are present, and if I focus on keeping one thing under control, something else might become obvious (like stimming - or I stop the stimming but can't interact socially).
Verdandi
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21 Apr 2012, 10:23 am
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?
Then why do I and other adults still have AS symptoms. Just because the adult aspies you've interacted did not seem to does not mean you can generalize us all based on them.
I don't mean to generalize. It's like separation anxiety and bed wetting. Separation anxiety and bed wetting can occur in adults but it is predominate in children.
Right and most recent research shows most autistic/aspie children do not become non-autistic upon reaching adulthood, nor do they typically disappear off the face of the earth....so how would it be predominate in children?
Do you mean studies have shown that all aspies still meet criteria (if they have been diagnosed as a child) into adulthood. I would like to see these studies.
But that was not what I was not the context I used that statement anyway or at least intended. It was suppose to be in response to my observations that aspies behave normally.
No, I mean many of us still have symptoms......and many who might not appear to are just working very hard to conceal it, but when it comes down to it aspergers/autism has to do with different brain wiring we're born with, so it would make sense most children who are autistic or aspie are still going to be as adults.
You mean neurological differences. Neurons change as we develop from child to adult. Also AS is not defined by brain differences, it is defined by behaviors. If you are able to concel, it is not considered clinically significant. It's like what Tony Attwood said in his book: if you leave the child by him/her self they do not have an observable clinical social impairment, it is only when you put the child in a room with others.
Yes and since people on the spectrum have neurological differences that separate them from neurotypicals, it would make sense that though neurons change through development ours will probably develop differently than an neurotypicals. Also neurological difference from my understanding implies brain difference. And where are you getting that autism is defined by behaviors alone?
Also I don't think it's up to you if it's clinically significant, that is up to the psychiatrist/mental health professional doing the diagnosing. Also no crap leaving a child by their self they wont have observable social impairment, that's because social interaction takes two individuals not a lone one.
DSM? At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.
Where did I say everyone has a disorder, I personally have a disorder, and I don't appreciate the assumption I must have magically grown out of it when I reached adulthood, because you think it's just a childhood disorder.
I am not saying that you are saying that everyone has a disorder, I was making an independent statement. Also it was not my intention to target you. No body magically stops bed wetting or stops having separation anxiety, we grow out of it.
Sweetleaf
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21 Apr 2012, 10:23 am
Verdandi wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
DSM is where I am getting that AS is defined by behaviors alone. At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.
But if you are diagnosed with AS, you have a disorder.
To be fair not everyone with a disorder such as AS is diagnosed...but true.
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We won't go back.
21 Apr 2012, 10:23 am
I don't see myself as "disabled" in the sense of legally qualifying for special accommodations or aid or the like... I have been able to graduate from college, work, do sports, things that average people do.
However, there are many social situations when I see the other people being completely at ease, while I am completely clueless and I struggle to do the same as they do, so I get anxious and discomforted. I come off as "passive" (like Tuttle said), uninterested, cold, rude, etc, no matter how hard I try to look friendly and get involved, and despite all the communication theory I have studied.
With time and repetition, one learns to stim without being seen, and to shut up and nod instead of interrupting when unable to join a conversation (because it's small talk, or because the environment is too loud, or because unsure of when to say things) or abashed by things that don't make sense. One learns to avoid confrontations if they punctually lead to meltdowns, to say no to invitations if the event is "too unstructured", and to omit opinions that are too personal or that people wouldn't agree with.
Of course, this degree of self-control doesn't always hold. Hence, the people who see me often (and pay attention to what I do) on a regular basis and for long enough, realize that there is something "weird" or "wrong" about me. But they are few (I guess).
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At age 24, 4 months and 10 days I was officially told: "Congratulations! You are an Aspie".
Now I write about it --> http://happilyclueless.me
21 Apr 2012, 10:25 am
Verdandi wrote:
Also, "if you are able to conceal, it is not clinically significant" is not true. And I will bring fibromyalgia into this again, because I have that too:
I can conceal fibromyalgia, and I do conceal it a lot of the time. I just am not in the habit of displaying the effects of chronic pain. This does not mean the pain is not clinically significant. It means I don't show it. And it does take effort to not show it.
As far as AS, it takes effort to try to "normalize" one's social presentation. I don't think I ever truly come across as "normal" but I do some things socially around other people. Maintaining that effort is exhausting and means that I don't really socialize with anyone for more than 10-15 minutes unless the topic is something I have a personal interest and/or a personal stake in. My impairment doesn't go away. Even if I do appear to interact like an NT, I am not interacting like an NT. I am instead trying to appear as if I interact like an NT. This is exhausting. It is not just exhausting because I am trying to force how I interact/communicate into a mold that is not natural or comfortable to me, but because all of autism's other features are present, and if I focus on keeping one thing under control, something else might become obvious (like stimming - or I stop the stimming but can't interact socially).
I can conceal fibromyalgia, and I do conceal it a lot of the time. I just am not in the habit of displaying the effects of chronic pain. This does not mean the pain is not clinically significant. It means I don't show it. And it does take effort to not show it.
As far as AS, it takes effort to try to "normalize" one's social presentation. I don't think I ever truly come across as "normal" but I do some things socially around other people. Maintaining that effort is exhausting and means that I don't really socialize with anyone for more than 10-15 minutes unless the topic is something I have a personal interest and/or a personal stake in. My impairment doesn't go away. Even if I do appear to interact like an NT, I am not interacting like an NT. I am instead trying to appear as if I interact like an NT. This is exhausting. It is not just exhausting because I am trying to force how I interact/communicate into a mold that is not natural or comfortable to me, but because all of autism's other features are present, and if I focus on keeping one thing under control, something else might become obvious (like stimming - or I stop the stimming but can't interact socially).
Fibromyalgia is an internalising disorder though not characterized by behaviors.
Verdandi
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21 Apr 2012, 10:50 am
Sweetleaf wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
DSM is where I am getting that AS is defined by behaviors alone. At the end of the day we all have brain differences, it doesn't mean we all have disorders.
But if you are diagnosed with AS, you have a disorder.
To be fair not everyone with a disorder such as AS is diagnosed...but true.
My point wasn't that you need a diagnosis to have a disorder. It's more that having the label "AS" applied to you means you have a disorder.
Anyway, AS is not defined by behaviors alone. It's diagnosed through observable behavior, but that's not its definition.
Verdandi
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21 Apr 2012, 10:56 am
melanieeee wrote:
Fibromyalgia is an internalising disorder though not characterized by behaviors.
That is completely irrelevant to my point. Said point being that hiding disability does not mean the impairment has gone away. What you did here is called shifting goalposts.
Also, autism is not characterized by behaviors either. It's simply diagnosed through observation of said behaviors.
Sweetleaf
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21 Apr 2012, 10:59 am
melanieeee wrote:
I am not saying that you are saying that everyone has a disorder, I was making an independent statement. Also it was not my intention to target you. No body magically stops bed wetting or stops having separation anxiety, we grow out of it.
Bed wetting and seperation anxiety is hardly comparable to autism or AS...and obviously all of us don't grow out of autism/AS, so you shouldn't assume we do.
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We won't go back.
21 Apr 2012, 11:16 am
Just to stir things up:
Prof. Dr. Dose, one of the top autism specialists in Germany claims that AS is being heavily overdiagnosed, and that only people who are OBVIOUSLY incapacitated by their symptoms should receive an AS diagnosis. I assume that would mean that if you can mask your symptoms you don't have AS, by definition. A "normal-seeming" aspie wouldn't be an aspie at all for him. His views are controversial but find a lot of acceptance.
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