any reasons why marijuana should still be illegal?

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sage_gerard
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03 May 2012, 3:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
and from what I've seen people typically get more messed up on alcohol than cannabis. What attitude is it you can't identify with?


I don't identify with an outspoken desire to unnecessarily ingest behavior-altering substances for the sole purpose of enjoyment. I'm not saying its wrong, but I am saying that there are so many other things to enjoy that cost nothing. I support legalizing pot for the people who really need it, since my bias is not against those seeking treatments.

I just don't understand those who make political arguments when all they want is a "fix". I feel the same way for stoners, drunks, crackheads and others dependent on some substance.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I don't see what is so terrible about using marijuana recreationally, people drink recreationally....


That's like saying "I don't see why its bad to eat ice cream. People eat cake". Both are arguably innocent activities, but I would not bet my health on it.


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03 May 2012, 3:36 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
and from what I've seen people typically get more messed up on alcohol than cannabis. What attitude is it you can't identify with?


I don't identify with an outspoken desire to unnecessarily ingest behavior-altering substances for the sole purpose of enjoyment. I'm not saying its wrong, but I am saying that there are so many other things to enjoy that cost nothing. I support legalizing pot for the people who really need it, since my bias is not against those seeking treatments.

Well that makes sense, not everyone is intrested...and there are other things to enjoy but obviously not all people enjoy the same things. But I don't see your lack of desire to ingest mind altering substances, as a reason for it to be illegal. I mean I can't just see why one deserves to get arrested or go to jail over ingesting a substance.

I just don't understand those who make political arguments when all they want is a "fix". I feel the same way for stoners, drunks, crackheads and others dependent on some substance.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I don't see what is so terrible about using marijuana recreationally, people drink recreationally....


What kind of excuse is that? That's like saying "I don't see why its bad to eat ice cream. People eat cake". Both are arguably innocent activities, but I would not bet my health on it.


It's not really meant as an excuse...I mean why should one have to have an excuse to drink or smoke cannabis anyways? Drug abuse is never a good thing really but again if someone has an addiction I feel its more of a health issue than a criminal issue. But not everyones going to agree......I just don't see how getting ones 'fix' from a drug is any worse than say getting ones 'fix.' from face book, the t.v or sky diving if they so choose.


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sage_gerard
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03 May 2012, 3:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Drug abuse is never a good thing really but again if someone has an addiction I feel its more of a health issue than a criminal issue.


So do I. I never said it was a criminal issue.

Quote:
But not everyones going to agree......I just don't see how getting ones 'fix' from a drug is any worse than say getting ones 'fix.' from face book, the t.v or sky diving if they so choose.


I understand where you are coming from. As I said before, there is nothing "wrong" (TM) with taking pot. Remember that I am not in a position to tell people what to do.

I feel there are risks involved with taking drugs that are not found in other activities, and I feel they are taken without much thought. When taking risks, wouldn't you want something better to come out of it besides your own pleasure? For example, going out and meeting new people means risking rejection, but might lead to deep, mutually beneficial relationships.


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03 May 2012, 4:02 pm

But think of all the DEA agents, prison guards, police officers, court officers, drug treatment counselors and numerous other professionals that would be out of work without an endless stream of low level drug users to keep them busy. Not only is there a lot of money to be made by keeping drugs illegal, but votes to be gained by pandering to all the people who depend upon that illegality to keep them employed. It's no coincidence that pot was made illegal just as alcohol prohibition was ending, a bunch of prohibition agents were about to be cut loose and someone's bureaucratic empire was going to lose a bunch of direct reports unless a new menace for them to fight was found.


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03 May 2012, 4:03 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Drug abuse is never a good thing really but again if someone has an addiction I feel its more of a health issue than a criminal issue.


So do I. I never said it was a criminal issue.

alright well then I suppose we are on the same page there.

Quote:
But not everyones going to agree......I just don't see how getting ones 'fix' from a drug is any worse than say getting ones 'fix.' from face book, the t.v or sky diving if they so choose.


I understand where you are coming from. As I said before, there is nothing "wrong" (TM) with taking pot. Remember that I am not in a position to tell people what to do.

I feel there are risks involved with taking drugs that are not found in other activities, and I feel they are taken without much thought. When taking risks, wouldn't you want something better to come out of it besides your own pleasure? For example, going out and meeting new people means risking rejection, but might lead to deep, mutually beneficial relationships.


There certainly are risks, but I could go on all day about various risks of all kinds of different things. But yeah I've self medicated with drugs and have used them for pleasure. And it really depends on the risk and how enjoyable the experiance is...not to mention some make the whole going out and metting people more easy.


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03 May 2012, 4:04 pm

edgewaters wrote:
ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
Why should the government be able to pass laws that both imply and legislate that they know what is good for me better than I do and further, that I should not be allowed to make personal choices that conflict with their ideology when they effect no one but me?


The government doesn't give a damn whether you personally want to become, say, a heroin junkie. It has nothing really to do with them caring about you or wanted to micromanage your choices. It's not to protect you, it's to protect society. The effects of a large quantity of methamphetamine on, say, a town or urban neighbourhood isn't just a matter of opinion, and the damage is so extreme (relative to volume) it's not like you can just say they're all more or less the same and the distinctions are just arbitrary, because they aren't. The distinctions are quite real. There is no comparison between what happens when you have a "weed epidemic" and what happens when you have an epidemic of crack or something like that.


Not a perfect analogy but I saw it as I was reading your reply, close enough for government work...
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03 May 2012, 4:55 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
I feel there are risks involved with taking drugs that are not found in other activities, and I feel they are taken without much thought.


I think that the typical Western diet that includes lots of fast food, snack food, soft drinks and other processed food is both less healthy and more addictive than pot. I'm not entirely sure if a joint is less unhealthy than a corn dog or a hot pocket, but I'm pretty certain that it causes far less health damage than deep-fried butter on a stick or a can of coke.

Here is an article about a woman who killed herself with coke (not cocaine but Coca Cola): http://www.boston.com/business/articles ... _in_death/
The countless victims of fast food temples like McD aren't even mentioned in the news. It's hardly newsworthy when somebody dies from a stroke, heart disease, diabetes or liver damage, because it happens far too often.

Now add to that the inevitable medication that is prescribed to manage the countless side effects of the average Western diet. Antacids, laxatives, insulin, antidepressants against mood disorders that are caused by a lack of micronutrients, corticosteroids to treat the many autoimmune diseases that are the result of eating things that a responsible farmer wouldn't serve to his pigs, and so on. But none of this is a drug. We call that food, drinks and medication.

Even food that contains cannabinoids which have the exact same effect as the active ingredient in marijuana, such as chocolate, are food items rather than drugs. Chocolate also contains an amphetamine and a muscle relaxant for good measure, but it's still considered food that is safe for infants to consume. Who cares that it teaches kids from a young age "if you want to feel happy, stuff your face and get high". Drug is a very arbitrary label that we reserve for things which are criminalized for no rational reason, while thousands of people die every day from eating deep-fried drugs that are served in a bucket.



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03 May 2012, 5:09 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
sage_gerard wrote:
I feel there are risks involved with taking drugs that are not found in other activities, and I feel they are taken without much thought.


I think that the typical Western diet that includes lots of fast food, snack food, soft drinks and other processed food is both less healthy and more addictive than pot. I'm not entirely sure if a joint is less unhealthy than a corn dog or a hot pocket, but I'm pretty certain that it causes far less health damage than deep-fried butter on a stick or a can of coke.

Here is an article about a woman who killed herself with coke (not cocaine but Coca Cola): http://www.boston.com/business/articles ... _in_death/
The countless victims of fast food temples like McD aren't even mentioned in the news. It's hardly newsworthy when somebody dies from a stroke, heart disease, diabetes or liver damage, because it happens far too often.

Now add to that the inevitable medication that is prescribed to manage the countless side effects of the average Western diet. Antacids, laxatives, insulin, antidepressants against mood disorders that are caused by a lack of micronutrients, corticosteroids to treat the many autoimmune diseases that are the result of eating too many things that a responsible farmer wouldn't want to serve to his pigs, and so on. But none of this is a drug. We call that food, drinks and medication.

Even food that contains cannabinoids which have the exact same effect as the active ingredient in marijuana, such as chocolate, are food items rather than drugs. Chocolate also contains an amphetamine and a muscle relaxant for good measure, but it's still considered food that is safe for infants to consume. Who cares that it teaches kids from a young age "if you want to feel happy, stuff your face and get high". Drug is a very arbitrary label that we reserve for things which are criminalized for no rational reason, while thousands of people die every day from eating deep-fried drugs that are served in a bucket.


Since I'm thinking about it, have you all read these cases against smoking marijuana as medicine (although not necessarily THC)? (clicky)(clicky)

If marijuana has no medicinal value, then I seriously hope the attitude I am detecting below is wrong.

EDIT: Rather, if marijuana has no medicinal value in the smoker's situation, then I seriously hope the attitude I am detecting below is wrong.

Quote:
But Congress! You let other people drink themselves silly and eat from a bucket! As long as everyone is hurting themselves, what's a joint going to matter? Our entire culture is full of s**t anyway. If the public is trending towards poor health, we should risk poor health in a way we choose!


If that is the motivation behind the argument, then we have reached a new level of stupid.


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Last edited by sage_gerard on 03 May 2012, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 May 2012, 5:15 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
sage_gerard wrote:
I feel there are risks involved with taking drugs that are not found in other activities, and I feel they are taken without much thought.


I think that the typical Western diet that includes lots of fast food, snack food, soft drinks and other processed food is both less healthy and more addictive than pot. I'm not entirely sure if a joint is less unhealthy than a corn dog or a hot pocket, but I'm pretty certain that it causes far less health damage than deep-fried butter on a stick or a can of coke.

Here is an article about a woman who killed herself with coke (not cocaine but Coca Cola): http://www.boston.com/business/articles ... _in_death/
The countless victims of fast food temples like McD aren't even mentioned in the news. It's hardly newsworthy when somebody dies from a stroke, heart disease, diabetes or liver damage, because it happens far too often.

Now add to that the inevitable medication that is prescribed to manage the countless side effects of the average Western diet. Antacids, laxatives, insulin, antidepressants against mood disorders that are caused by a lack of micronutrients, corticosteroids to treat the many autoimmune diseases that are the result of eating too many things that a responsible farmer wouldn't want to serve to his pigs, and so on. But none of this is a drug. We call that food, drinks and medication.

Even food that contains cannabinoids which have the exact same effect as the active ingredient in marijuana, such as chocolate, are food items rather than drugs. Chocolate also contains an amphetamine and a muscle relaxant for good measure, but it's still considered food that is safe for infants to consume. Who cares that it teaches kids from a young age "if you want to feel happy, stuff your face and get high". Drug is a very arbitrary label that we reserve for things which are criminalized for no rational reason, while thousands of people die every day from eating deep-fried drugs that are served in a bucket.


Since I'm thinking about it, have you all read these cases against marijuana as medicine? (clicky)(clicky)

If marijuana has no medicinal value, then I seriously hope the attitude I am detecting below is wrong.

Quote:
But Congress! You let other people drink themselves silly and eat from a bucket! As long as everyone is hurting themselves, what's a joint going to matter? Our entire culture is full of s**t anyway. If the public is trending towards poor health, we should risk poor health in a way we choose!


Marijuana does have medicinal value, it treats my tremor from Parkinson's (make's it go away) and it treats my Dystonia (relaxes the muscles that won't release). Nothing else does that without heavy side effects.



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03 May 2012, 5:16 pm

shrox wrote:
Marijuana does have medicinal value, it treats my tremor from Parkinson's (make's it go away) and it treats my Dystonia (relaxes the muscles that won't release). Nothing else does that without heavy side effects.


Is it the THC? Can it be administered without smoking?


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03 May 2012, 5:21 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
shrox wrote:
Marijuana does have medicinal value, it treats my tremor from Parkinson's (make's it go away) and it treats my Dystonia (relaxes the muscles that won't release). Nothing else does that without heavy side effects.


Is it the THC? Can it be administered without smoking?


THC is one chemical in marijuana that has medicinal value, but many of the others do as well....and yes there are other methods besides smoking. I actually self medicate with it because it calms my anxiety and ptsd and makes the depression a bit less painful. otherwise I'd probably smoke it less.

But there are edibles.....I suppose chemicals like thc could be extracted, they have thc pills already though and they apparently aren't as effective as actual marijuana. But anyways there are tinctures, beverages and vaporizers smoking is just the most well known way I guess.


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sage_gerard
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03 May 2012, 5:24 pm

Edited previous post to account for overgeneralized suggestion.

Cited from previously linked source for the sake of discussion

Quote:
Some elements of marijuana, when isolated, can be helpful to patients under medical supervision. THC, which is the active ingredient in marijuana, can and has been created synthetically, allowing its medicinal properties (without the "high") to be used as medicine. DEA and the FDA approved Marinol™, a safe, pill-form of synthetic THC which has been available to patients since 1995.


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03 May 2012, 6:02 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
Since I'm thinking about it, have you all read these cases against smoking marijuana as medicine (although not necessarily THC)? (clicky)(clicky)


I don't know why you post this in reply to my post, since I haven't mentioned the medical benefits of cannabis in this thread. I don't think they are necessary to make a case for cannabis legalization. But I've read the article, and I mostly agree with them. I think the authors are too hung up on smoking as a means of cannabis consumption, which should tell you that it's hard to find an argument against eating marijuana / hashish or consuming it through a vaporizer. But I agree that dried cannabis buds, no matter how they are consumed, don't meet the requirements for a proper medical drug that is free from contaminants and contains standardized amounts of active ingredients.

The same could be said about all herbal drugs. I don't want my doctor to prescribe the camomile tea that I drink for its anti-inflammatory properties. I also don't expect my health insurance to pay for the fennel tea that I use to treat indigestion, the ginger that I use for stomach problems, garlic oil, a natural antibiotic, passion flower extract, my anxiolytic of choice, or the hypericum extract that I take as an antidepressant. I don't mind buying all those things. I actually prefer drugs that are sold over the counter, because I don't have to sit in a crowded waiting room for hours to get a prescription. Besides, herbal remedies are pretty cheap because no big pharmaceutical corporation has a patent on them and is in a position to keep the price artificially high (which is one of the main reasons that our health systems are so insanely expensive).

Anyway, none of those herbal remedies are proper medical drugs. Does that mean they should be illegal? Of course not. They shouldn't be prescribed to patients with severe health problems that require 100% reliable drugs, but if these herbs were no longer sold and people were imprisoned for growing camomile or alchemilla in their backyards, I'd take to the streets despite my social anxiety. Can you imagine police forces setting fire to a field of thyme or marigold? This hypothetical scenario might make you realize how utterly insane it is to try and outlaw a plant that humans have grown and consumed for millennia.



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03 May 2012, 6:24 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
...
EDIT: Rather, if marijuana has no medicinal value in the smoker's situation, then I seriously hope the attitude I am detecting below is wrong.

Quote:
But Congress! You let other people drink themselves silly and eat from a bucket! As long as everyone is hurting themselves, what's a joint going to matter? Our entire culture is full of s**t anyway. If the public is trending towards poor health, we should risk poor health in a way we choose!


If that is the motivation behind the argument, then we have reached a new level of stupid.


Are you arguing that we should outlaw everything that is considered harmful? Because otherwise, your satirical take on my post doesn't make much sense. If we allow people to eat themselves to death with deep-fried snickers bars wrapped in bacon, we can indeed hardly forbid them to consume a plant that has no conclusively proven adverse long-term effects whatsoever when eaten or vaporized. But that has never been my argument. If I had to make a case for the legalization of cannabis, it would, in a nutshell, look like this:

1.) Expert panels, such as the Global Commission on Drug Policy, have come to the conclusion that the war on drugs is a complete and utter failure, as well as a gigantic waste of money.
2.) The example of the Netherlands has shown that cannabis decriminalization can reduce both the number of marijuana users as well as hard drug users.
3.) U.S. prisons are full of pot consumers. There is no reason to imprison people who could otherwise be contributing members of society. At the very least, the possession of small amounts of drugs should be decriminalized, which has been done in many European countries. Punish the dealers if you must, but leave the consumers alone.
4.) Cannabis criminalization leads to laced, unsafe street weed as well as gang criminality, and greatly lowers the entry age. 20% of all 15-year-olds in the U.S. have smoked pot. 3% have tried cocaine. Only legalization and proper sales regulation can prevent the sale of drugs to children.
5.) If cannabis was legalized and taxed like tobacco, it would make a great source of tax revenue and drive street dealers out of business. Right now, the money ends up in the pockets of criminals.
6.) We can't keep people from getting high. Even if drug prohibition was effective, which it isn't, people would be sniffing glue, inhaling gasoline fumes or licking toads. We should instead focus on social policies and create an environment where people have less reason to seek artificial, drug-induced happiness. It's easy to imprison people, but it doesn't do quite as much good as fighting poverty, inequality, lack of education, detrimental home environments, unemployment and other social deficits that result in crime, drug use and high risk-taking behavior.

But the killer argument is still "cannabis is a plant". Are you an environmentalist? Then think about what the prohibition of a naturally occuring plant ultimately means: Your legislators are trying to eradicate an entire species. I mean, kids get high from licking the Colorado River toad. Should DEA agents venture into the woods and stomp on toads like they burn down cannabis fields? It is madness to try and drive a species to extinction, or to tell people which plants they're allowed to grow on their own property.



Last edited by CrazyCatLord on 03 May 2012, 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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03 May 2012, 6:36 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
Edited previous post to account for overgeneralized suggestion.

Cited from previously linked source for the sake of discussion
Quote:
Some elements of marijuana, when isolated, can be helpful to patients under medical supervision. THC, which is the active ingredient in marijuana, can and has been created synthetically, allowing its medicinal properties (without the "high") to be used as medicine. DEA and the FDA approved Marinol™, a safe, pill-form of synthetic THC which has been available to patients since 1995.


Yeah apparently that pill is not as effective as actual marijuana...and considering THC is the most psychoactive chemical in marijuana I don't see how they figure it won't cause the high, unless they did something weird to the THC which seems unessisary to me considering marijuana in its plant form works just fine.


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03 May 2012, 7:08 pm

sage_gerard wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
and from what I've seen people typically get more messed up on alcohol than cannabis. What attitude is it you can't identify with?


I don't identify with an outspoken desire to unnecessarily ingest behavior-altering substances for the sole purpose of enjoyment. I'm not saying its wrong, but I am saying that there are so many other things to enjoy that cost nothing. I support legalizing pot for the people who really need it, since my bias is not against those seeking treatments.

I just don't understand those who make political arguments when all they want is a "fix". I feel the same way for stoners, drunks, crackheads and others dependent on some substance.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I don't see what is so terrible about using marijuana recreationally, people drink recreationally....


That's like saying "I don't see why its bad to eat ice cream. People eat cake". Both are arguably innocent activities, but I would not bet my health on it.


People use pot for a myriad of reasons. To relax in the evening, as a philosophical aide, for pure recreation... But it doesn't matter the individual reason, all that matters is it is a positive aspect of many people's lives and the fact that it is illegal is a glaring hypocrisy of our time.
The fact we risk criminal charges which can impede one's success for such a harmless activity makes the legalization of pot a very relevant political argument.


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