When would slavery in the Southern States have ended...

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When would Slavery have ended, had Lincoln not intervened?
By 1875 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
By 1900 14%  14%  [ 7 ]
By 1925 14%  14%  [ 7 ]
By 1950 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
By 1975 12%  12%  [ 6 ]
By 2000 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
By 2025 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Never 26%  26%  [ 13 ]
Just show the results 16%  16%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 50

ArrantPariah
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17 Jun 2012, 8:49 am

Here is a Southern Christian's legal opinion

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/h ... 01_ZO.html

Judge Leon M. Bazile wrote:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.


Granted, Mr. Bazile was a Roman Catholic, but he married a Baptist.



simon_says
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17 Jun 2012, 9:02 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Here is a Southern Christian's legal opinion

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/h ... 01_ZO.html

Judge Leon M. Bazile wrote:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.


Granted, Mr. Bazile was a Roman Catholic, but he married a Baptist.


But he let us invent ships and planes without going all Tower of Babel on us. I'd take his silence for unspoken consent.



ArrantPariah
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17 Jun 2012, 11:14 am

A lot of Republican voters in the South still think that inter-racial marriage should be illegal.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democrac ... -primaries

Our President obviously isn't going to do well in that region.

I wonder how many think that negro slavery should be reinstituted?



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17 Jun 2012, 11:26 am

fundamentalists think that slavery is a biblical institution.



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17 Jun 2012, 12:32 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
To be fair, Jimmy Carter is a very good man, and a Southern Baptist.

HOWEVER, I've heard a number of other Southern Baptist claim that Jimmy Carter is not a Christian at all. He is a "Socialist." I will consign such Southern Baptists to Hell.


A lot of hate in that post - and it seems to me that you are spewing with it. Hate is something one cannot debate. The emotion itself is illogical and it is impossible to debate illogic. THat being said, why waste my time? Your post speaks for itself. And, the last I checked, only God can consign someone to hell and you are way far off from being God.

Longshanks


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17 Jun 2012, 12:36 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Here is a Southern Christian's legal opinion

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/h ... 01_ZO.html

Judge Leon M. Bazile wrote:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.


Granted, Mr. Bazile was a Roman Catholic, but he married a Baptist.


One man does not a religion make. Comparing a Catholic to a Baptist is comparing apples to oranges. And lastly, I have a hard time in figuring out who's the bigger bigot - you or the judge?

Longshanks


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17 Jun 2012, 1:32 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
Oh, so you're a self-appointed pharasee. Ah, the truth comes out - and it explains a lot. And no, I'm not being the slightest bit defensive. I just get the impression that when I ask a question and you don't answer it that you are purposefully avoiding it. And, being law school trained, yes, I will hold you to an answer until I get it - because for all I know you may be hiding something - or changing the subject. Old habits die hard. There is nothing defensive about it. It's simply good debatesmanship - which secular liberals seem to have a hard time dealing with. Yeah, I do recall a Bible passage - let me see - somewhere in Matthew - ah yes, Matthew 12:22 - 27, when Jesus cast the demons out of the blind possessed man and then the pharasees accused Jesus of being of the devil. That passage comes to mind when you accuse the Souther Baptist Church of being a great source evil. I see a great parallel here. You do have the mindset of a pharasee, I will give you credit for that. So, you think my church is evil and thus you must think that I'm evil because I'm a member. Fascinating. Let's look this over.

According to Webster's, the definition of evil is basically what is morally wrong, what hinders the realization of good; what is materially and especially socially very harmful.

We worship and glorify God, and give praise and thanks to His Son, Jesus Christ, for dying for us that we may enjoy a relationship with God and not be condemned to a Christless eternity. And many of our churches have food pantries that serve a lot of people. I can't for the life of me imagine how that would be evil. There is nothing about it that hinders society or is harmful or is wrong about it. Thus, your statement is unsupported. On your reply to this post perhaps you can defend that statement - or were you merely being inflamitory?

Why should I care that you care? Because, like any other person on this site I don't like to waste my time with people who don't care. As I'm sure you feel the same way. I have better things to use my life energy with. In other words, I have a life.

Now - a disclaimer before I continue. After all, I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people - and I don't want to leave that impression - but, Arrant Pariah did ask a question and a question does beget an answer. So If you don't like the answer, don't blame me. Blame Arrant Pariah for asking the question in the first place.

What is God's will? That is simple. It's in the Bible - at least in my and my fellow congregants belief - That we trust Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior and that we have a close relationship with God and obey his will for our lives. Now, that means that we submit to His lordship, His authority over us. His will for us is covered - in my Christian belief, in the Bible. You may choose to follow Him or not. I've made my choice. No one is sticking an AK-47 to your head. There are a number of countries that do just that to force people to follow their state sponsored religion (Iran for example).

What does it mean to worship God and submit to His will? Simply that. I wouldn't think I'd need a Webster's Dictionary for that. I would think that you are a smart enough guy to figure out that one on your own.

I believe that Christ offers all of us a choice, thus, in reality, we choose whether we go to heaven or hell.

Christianity offers me a solace that I never experienced as a secular athiest. I am not condemning you for your choices. I don't get paid enough to do that. But, likewise, don't condemn me for mine. You don't get paid enough to do it either. And just because we acknowledge the existence of hell, it does not mean that there is any point of condemnation for us. We just acknowledge scripture. Period. If you wish to deny it, by all means do so. Don't let us stop you. There are sins I despise, sure. But there is nothing wrong with condemning the sin - not the sinner. And ALL of us, including you, Saint Arrant Pariah, sin daily. The biggest difference between me and an athiest or an agnostic is that I know, beyond any doubt, that God loved me so much, that he not only gave me a drop-dead, gorgeous, knock-out wife, a couple of great daughters, grandkids, a fulfilling military career, a roof over my head, food on my table, and a hedge of protection in battle, but also gave me His only begotten Son that I may spend my eternity Him either after death or after rapture. I'm saved and my place is sealed. I serve my country - yes. But I serve Christ first. And I've been in some pretty hair-raising situations. Was I scared? Try down-right terrified! But while I'm scared of HOW I may die, I don't fear death itself. And that, is part of the peace that passes all understanding.

You know, your slur reminds me of an event that occurred on the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg. General Robert E. Lee had just given the order for his army to begin the retreat South. As he rode down Cemetary Hill, a Union Army private who was seriously wounded (the wound would ultimately cost him a leg) raised his arms and shouted "Hurrah for the Union". Lee immediately dismounted his horse and walked toward the private. The private thought that Lee was going to kill him. Instead, Lee knelt down and took the private's hand and said, "My son, I will pray for you, and hope that one day you will soon be well."

I'm not a general. Just a lowly major. But I'll close this post in the same way. "My dear Sir, I will pray for you, and hope that one day, you'll soon find peace."

Longshanks


But, Longshanks, that is not the sum total of the activity of churches--or even merely your denomination of the larger church--within contemporary society.

Many churches seek to use the law as a means to impose one particular morality upon the general citizenry. The Opposition of many churches to same-sex marriage is a case in point. Of what possible relevance is the civil marriage of two non-communicants to any particular church?

Has the legitimacy of divorced persons remarrying watered down the Roman Catholic church's refusal to remarry divorced persons? No. So why should the legtimacy of same-sex marriage do anything to a church which refuses to celebrate those marriages? And why should one church stand in the way of another which holds as its belief that same-sex marriage is just as legitimate an expression of divine grace as opposite sex marriage?

40% of homeless teenagers are on the streets because they have been kicked out of their homes by parents intolerant of their children's sexual orientation. What responsibility has the church taken for the consequences of its teaching? How many pastors have actively encouraged parents to deal ruthlessly with their gay and lesbian children--knowing full well that this increases the likelihood of suicide by a factor of eight?

Now, I do not hold you personally responible for any of this. You are accountable only for the sins that you have committed personally. But when you claim that there is nothing about your church that hinders society or is harmful or is wrong about it, it seems to me that you are being disingenuous.

Many people have been hurt very directly by the actions of people in positions of authority within your church. Even if you believe these people to have acted in good faith, you cannot ignore the harm that has been done.


To begin with the Roman Catholic church is not the sum of all churches either, but you seem to have no problem making it the sum, as I see from this post. Big mistake - it indicates extreme bias.

Secondly, both the Old and the New Testaments are very plainly spoken when it comes homosexulality - and I'll quote the Apostle Paul on this: "It's an abomination before the Lord." If you have such a cow with that - take it up before God. Nothing I can do about it. I'm not God. Never said I was. But an athiest historian named Edward Gibbon, and many after him have said the same thing: Destroying the traditional family is the quickest way to destroying a great society. The Greeks, Romans, and many others eventually allowed same sex marriage and look what happened to them. History repeats itself. I don't apologize for it. I say it like it is. And I've met a few "former" homosexuals who now have wives and families who will also differ with you on that.

Third, your statistics. I dispute the validity. Name your sources or don't quote them. I've busted more than one set of statistics in my day - they use accountants to do that on occasion. I'd love to bust these.

You state that many people have been hurt by the authority of my church. The Roman Catholic Church is not my church - and again - prove it! I wan't proof - not bunk!

As far as my being disingenous is concerned, I think, sir, you fit that catagory better than I. You see, you have forgotten all of the times that you secular liberals have, expecially by using the legal system, forced your values down our throats. We rely on the Holy Spirit way more than the legal system. You liberals espouse it. Liberal activist judges are overturning public referendums concerning same-sex marriage - MINORITY enforcing it's will over the majority. Yeah, right - what a bunch of psychobabble your response is!

Longshanks


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Last edited by Longshanks on 17 Jun 2012, 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Jun 2012, 1:33 pm

Longshanks wrote:
One man does not a religion make.


Really? What about... Jesus?

Longshanks wrote:
Comparing a Catholic to a Baptist is comparing apples to oranges.


More like granny smith vs Macintosh

Longshanks wrote:
And lastly, I have a hard time in figuring out who's the bigger bigot - you or the judge?


That is simply ridiculous, maybe it needs copypasta to make it a tad more clear:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

I guess pointing out obvious bigotry makes him.. a bigot? If said bigotry is part of the religion?


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You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


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17 Jun 2012, 1:49 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I'm only concerned as to whether REAL worship is actually happening, and a lot of "worship" really glorifies the believer and not God. I have a huge problem with that


Speaking of "Glorification of the Believer"

Longshanks wrote:

The biggest difference between me and an athiest or an agnostic is that I know, beyond any doubt, that God loved me so much, that he not only gave me a drop-dead, gorgeous, knock-out wife, a couple of great daughters, grandkids, a fulfilling military career, a roof over my head, food on my table, and a hedge of protection in battle, but also gave me His only begotten Son that I may spend my eternity Him either after death or after rapture. I'm saved and my place is sealed.


Baptists are very big on self-glorification. You really couldn't find another Christian denomination where the members glorified themselves more completely.


Listing one's blessings for which one is thankful is not self-glorification. I have met Barack Obama and Joseph Biden though. Next to them and Nancy Pelosi, you are the most self - glorifying person I have encountered yet. Secular liberals are very big on self-glorification. You couldn't really find another kind of philosopy or way of living where such people glorified themselves so arrogantly.

Longshanks


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17 Jun 2012, 1:54 pm

Joining the military is like selling yourself into slavery.



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17 Jun 2012, 6:12 pm

Longshanks wrote:
Listing one's blessings for which one is thankful is not self-glorification. I have met Barack Obama and Joseph Biden though. Next to them and Nancy Pelosi, you are the most self - glorifying person I have encountered yet.


Its a good thing we can take your word for it.

I met Mitt Romney, he told me he hates baby carrots because they make him think of gay people


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17 Jun 2012, 6:42 pm

Longshanks wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
To be fair, Jimmy Carter is a very good man, and a Southern Baptist.

HOWEVER, I've heard a number of other Southern Baptist claim that Jimmy Carter is not a Christian at all. He is a "Socialist." I will consign such Southern Baptists to Hell.


A lot of hate in that post - and it seems to me that you are spewing with it. Hate is something one cannot debate. The emotion itself is illogical and it is impossible to debate illogic. THat being said, why waste my time? Your post speaks for itself. And, the last I checked, only God can consign someone to hell and you are way far off from being God.

Longshanks


An Angel of the Lord did once let me have a look at the Book of Life. Jimmy Carter and I are both in it. Those who slandered Jimmy Carter are not listed, and will just have to endure eternal damnation. Nothing I can do about it. They placed their bets and guessed wrong.



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17 Jun 2012, 7:09 pm

Longshanks wrote:
Listing one's blessings for which one is thankful is not self-glorification.

Yes it is. No need to be so defensive about it. You may glorify yourself to your heart's content.

Longshanks wrote:
I have met Barack Obama and Joseph Biden though. Next to them and Nancy Pelosi, you are the most self - glorifying person I have encountered yet.

Can you furnish a specific quote of me glorifying myself? Those three are politicians, so of course they are going to glorify themselves. People who don't glorify themselves are not going to get elected.

Longshanks wrote:
Secular liberals are very big on self-glorification. You couldn't really find another kind of philosopy or way of living where such people glorified themselves so arrogantly.

Longshanks

You're just being silly again. Asserting that you do not glorify yourself, while stating that others are, in comparison, "very big on self-glorification", is self-glorification. Are you really so certain of your own goodness?

Luke 18 wrote:
Jesus also told this parable to people who were sure of their own goodness and despised everybody else:

"Once there were two men who went up to the Temple to pray: one was a Pharisee, the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood apart by himself and prayed, 'I thank you, God, that I am not greedy, dishonest, or an adulterer, like everybody else. I thank you that I am not like that tax collector over there. I fast two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all my income.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance and would not even raise his face to heaven, but beat on his breast and said, 'God, have pity on me, a sinner!'

"I tell you", said Jesus, "the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, was in the right with God when he went home. For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great."


You may wish to seek some humility lessons.



Last edited by ArrantPariah on 18 Jun 2012, 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Jun 2012, 7:38 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Joining the military is like selling yourself into slavery.


Slavery is not voluntary. Joining the military is. For those who like soldiering serving a hitch is not slavery. We no longer have a draft. Conscription IS slavery.

ruveyn



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18 Jun 2012, 2:27 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Joining the military is like selling yourself into slavery.

more like indentured servitude. when i joined the military way back when, the [mis]understanding i had with sgt. recruiter was that i was to get something useful out of my indentured servitude at the end, aside from my freedom.



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18 Jun 2012, 11:37 am

Longshanks wrote:
To begin with the Roman Catholic church is not the sum of all churches either, but you seem to have no problem making it the sum, as I see from this post. Big mistake - it indicates extreme bias.


You have misused the word bias. Anyone who has actually been to law school knows the difference between bias and prejudice. You have used the former when you meant the latter.

My reference to the Roman Catholic church is exemplary, not universal. Taken in context, my whole paragraph demonstrates an understanding that different churches have different attitudes towards marriages. I have taken an analagous type of legal marriage--that between divorced persons with a living former spouse--and demonstrated that a chuch which is dogmatically opposed to this type of legal marriage has never been compelled to celebrate such a marriage. So if the Southern Baptists oppose same-sex marriage, it is reasonable to conclude that no Southern Baptist congregation will ever be compelled to celebrate one. And why should the Southern Baptists opposition stand in the way of, say, the MCC, who would be perfectly happy to celebrate such a marriage, were it legal.

Quote:
Secondly, both the Old and the New Testaments are very plainly spoken when it comes homosexulality - and I'll quote the Apostle Paul on this: "It's an abomination before the Lord." If you have such a cow with that - take it up before God. Nothing I can do about it. I'm not God. Never said I was. But an athiest historian named Edward Gibbon, and many after him have said the same thing: Destroying the traditional family is the quickest way to destroying a great society. The Greeks, Romans, and many others eventually allowed same sex marriage and look what happened to them. History repeats itself. I don't apologize for it. I say it like it is. And I've met a few "former" homosexuals who now have wives and families who will also differ with you on that.


That is your interpretation of a work of fiction. There are others who interpret that work differently.

Why should the law prefer either of those? What place do Moses and Paul have speaking on the question of whether the State gives legal recognition to a marriage between two men or two women?

Quote:
Third, your statistics. I dispute the validity. Name your sources or don't quote them. I've busted more than one set of statistics in my day - they use accountants to do that on occasion. I'd love to bust these.


42% of homeless youth identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual. --Orion Center, Survey of Street Youth, Seattle, WA: Orion Center, 1986. (available at your local library)

8.4 times--How much more likely gay and transgender youth are to attempt suicide if they are rejected by their families in adolescence compared to if they are not rejected by their family.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/ ... mbers.html

Quote:
You state that many people have been hurt by the authority of my church. The Roman Catholic Church is not my church - and again - prove it! I wan't proof - not bunk!


I never said it was. I presented the Roman Catholics as an example of a church who is dogmatically protected from performing marriages that it opposes.

On the other hand I am well aware that you are a Southern Baptist, and I am very clear in levelling a charge of hypocrisy and of wilfully and wantonly causing harm at your Church's leaders.

Quote:
As far as my being disingenous is concerned, I think, sir, you fit that catagory better than I. You see, you have forgotten all of the times that you secular liberals have, expecially by using the legal system, forced your values down our throats. We rely on the Holy Spirit way more than the legal system. You liberals espouse it. Liberal activist judges are overturning public referendums concerning same-sex marriage - MINORITY enforcing it's will over the majority. Yeah, right - what a bunch of psychobabble your response is!

Longshanks


We have used the legal system when people and governments have acted illegally. It isn't a case of forcing our values down your throats, it's a case of standing up for the Rule of Law. Have you been prevented from marrying a person of your choosing? How does any same-sex couple's relationship touch on your freedom to live your life in any way? You can still go to Church, you can still believe that homosexuality is sinful, you can still do everything that you are inclined to do. Yet you would deny this same liberty to your fellow citizens? This isn't merely disingenuous, it's hypocrisy.

No referendum passed by any majority of the citizens of any state is of any force or effect if it violates the United States constitution. This isn't a case of the courts interfering with public will, this a case of the courts enforcing the rule of law. No democracy can ever exist without a system of law that prevents the majority from riding roughshod over the rights of minorities.

The soveriegn is subject to the law, and that applies whether the sovereign is a monarch or the sovereign is the people.


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