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Dan_Undiagnosed
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05 Jul 2012, 2:40 am

I've recently become fixated with the music of Nirvana and the biographical story of Kurt Cobain. My older brother was a huge Nirvana fan when Kurt died. I was ten and I certainly knew the band and their hits but never considered myself a fan. In fact as a kid I didn't really listen to any music.
I noticed a couple of threads about Kurt speculating whether or not he had an ASD. A lot of people dismiss the idea and only a few people commenting on the threads seem to even entertain the notion. I admit that at first I only based my pondering on a few things like;
-His first girlfriend saying he was an unmotivated cat lover who kind of needed her as a maternal figure to help take care of him.
-The way he seems to smile mock smiles in music videos like 'Heart Shaped Box' as though aping NT expressions. It was said before the Nirvana Unplugged recording started Kurt told MTV staff if they capture him smiling to put it in because he knew he didn't smile enough.
-His journals which he encouraged friends to read through on coffee tables were not just filled with diary entries but all sorts of organisational notes, calendars, budgets, art works etc. Turns out Kurt always had an entrepreneur streak with business plans drawn up to start a small cleaning business in Seattle before Nirvana got their big break.
-I've always thought Kurt's voice was slightly monotone.

So yeah a lot of this stuff was kind of just anecdotal and maybe just reminded me of parts of myself. But today I watched the documentary 'About A Son' which plays a series of recorded interviews a journalist did in order to write the Nirvana biography 'Come As You Are' to footage of places Kurt lived. Some of the things there astounded me and now I'm certain he was somewhere on the spectrum.
-Kurt talks about being severely punished for knocking drinks over or other such clumsy accidents so that he still cursed himself into adulthood for doing it. This makes it sound like it happened fairly often, maybe clumsiness?
-Kurt mentions having a problem with authority, namely police. He would throw rocks at police cars whenever he saw them and gave verbal abuse to police telling them they're evil.
-Kurt talks about having 'nervous habits' he would 'almost describe as a compulsive disorder' like popping his knuckles, scratching his face, flicking his hair.
-Considered himself anti-social and had few friends at school believing ordinary people failed to meet his expectations and that they were 'carbon copies of one another'.
-Was mistaken for being homosexual and got picked on. Ended up embracing this fake homosexuality to gain a sense of identity as an outsider. He said he enjoyed the conflict this false homosexuality caused and that it was exciting.
-Had close connections to at least two teachers who encouraged his writing and visual art. The English teacher would keep Kurt back after school and he said they would talk for hours.
-Describes constantly being asked 'What's wrong?' or 'Why do you always look so angry Kurt?' when he felt completely fine on the inside. He even joked about shaving his eyebrows off so people wouldn't think he was always scowling.
-Had severe stomach complaints, a burning nauseous sensation he suffered from for years and self medicated with drugs. Some sort of co-morbid digestive condition?

The most moving evidence was right near the start of the documentary. Keep in mind the interviewer, Michael Azzerad, is talking to Kurt at a time (in 1993 I think) when he had likely never heard of Asperger's Syndrome. In fact I think it wasn't until 1994 that the diagnosis began to be used? What I've quoted Kurt saying below made me shiver and I almost cried at his description. I'm surprised more people here at WP never came across it;
Kurt Cobain; "I always wanted to think that I was an alien :alien: I used to think when I was young that I was adopted by my mother because they found me and a space ship left me off. I was from a different planet. I wanted to be from a different planet really bad. Every night I used to talk to my real parents and my real family in the skies. I knew that there were thousands of other alien babies dropped off and they're all over the place and I've met quite a few of 'em. It's just something that I've always liked to toy with, with my mind. It was really fun to pretend that y'know. There's some special reason for me to be here and I feel really homesick all the time. So does... so do the other aliens and I only have a chance to come across like a handful of other aliens throughout the rest of my life. Eventually one day we'll find out what we're supposed to do".

:(

Then the documentary ends with a brief phone exchange between Michael and Kurt which includes;
Michael Azzerad; "Are you a martian?"
Kurt Cobain; *Laughs* "I'd like to believe so"



stumbling_forward
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05 Jul 2012, 1:34 pm

I'm a bit nervous with "armchair diagnostics" of others (especially those whom I've never met and, in the case of Mr. Cobain, never will meet). (Perhaps it's because I'm uncomfortable about others considering me in such a clinical--and personal--fashion, but I digress...).

I'm also nervous about the potential for psychological 'projection,' which--as I understand it--folks with Aspergers often have an issue with.

Still, I'll admit to having my own curiosity over the whole "is s/he, isn't s/he?" issue that surrounds certain people, living and deceased, though I find it equally maddening, as one can never "know" conclusively. And I do like finality (i.e. order). Truth be told, I've diagnosed several of my favorites artists (film, music, etc.) as 'Aspie,' since my self-diagnosis. I'm not sure if it is the result a life-long, unconscious attraction to 'like-minded' art and artists; the result of mere projection, as mentioned earlier; or a combination of the two. Hard to say objectively, I suppose.

So, with that lengthy disclaimer out of the way, I would agree that it is possible--perhaps even likely--that Mr. Cobain was "somewhere on the spectrum," especially given the anecdotal evidence you presented.

I can relate to more than a few of the symptoms Mr. Cobain allegedly experienced. Regardless of whether or not we are neurological 'kin,' I've always felt sad for Mr. Cobain. Even in the brief period of significant fame that he experienced, he seemed, to me, utterly alone. Kinda lost. Perhaps he was isolated further by the world attempting to close in on him. Who knows, in the end? That's the nature of speculation, I suppose.

I feel sad for everyone, period. But I especially feel for those who... for whatever reason... decide that they can no longer handle waking life. It is definitely an empathetic sadness: sort of a "there but for the Grace of God go I" realization.

Life is really hard for so many people, and sometimes it seems like there's so little that can be done. It get's overwhelming.

All one can do, I suppose, is try one's best to lighten the emotional load of others, as opposed to piling on additional negativity/sorrow/pessimism. Easier said than done, that's for sure.

Thanks for taking the time to post this. Thoughtful and sincere, in my opinion.

Sincere Regards.



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05 Jul 2012, 3:21 pm

I haven't read the post since I disagree with its premise, but I just really don't get it. Maybe because I'm a big music lover, and to me he conformed to what the 'archetypical' musician is like. The thing about neurotypicals, they're typical. They're the norm. And that's what he looked like to me.

I've said it before, but I found out through WP that Courtney was diagnosed autistic as a kid, and I don't think she is. Maybe because I'm autistic, and I haven't slept with f*****g PETE DE FREITAS.


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Dan_Undiagnosed
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06 Jul 2012, 7:30 am

stumbling_forward wrote:
I'm a bit nervous with "armchair diagnostics" of others


Thanks for responding :)
I'm also usually suspicious about the amount of armchair diagnostics around WP especially of fictional characters. I suppose if this was my first attempt it might as well be a big one that I've seen most people resist in other threads :lol:

stumbling_forward wrote:
I'm also nervous about the potential for psychological 'projection,' which--as I understand it--folks with Aspergers often have an issue with


Okay now this I have to admit to. My girlfriend calls it my aspie finger pointing. It's kind of weird I should be so sure about someone that most other people seem to resist. I think it's probably because the only thing most people know about Cobain is Smells Like Teen Spirit, Courtney Love, Heroin then Suicide. I think most auties/aspies would be shocked if they listened to this;
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmC9eRhrtqc[/youtube]



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06 Jul 2012, 8:05 am

Bun wrote:
I haven't read the post since I disagree with its premise


I was going to show you the same discourtesy and stop reading here to respond with "ignorant pig" for replying without reading my post. Then I realised you might have just been put off by the length :oops:

Bun wrote:
I just really don't get it


A crazy thought occurs. Reading my post might have helped with that.



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06 Jul 2012, 8:49 am

I've actually read it later. That's just the known biography of Kurt though, I've watched the same films etc. as you.

Which part of it did you find the most Aspie, his monotone? It's not a requirement with ASD, and certainly not presented in many cases of ASD.

And there was a reason I said 'I don't get it', if you look at the first page of the music forum, there's already a discussion about it. It should be read as 'I don't get the multitude of voices saying the same thing', though it's probably due to his popularity.


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Dan_Undiagnosed
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06 Jul 2012, 9:05 am

Bun wrote:
I've actually read it later. That's just the known biography of Kurt though, I've watched the same films etc. as you.


Okay thanks.

Bun wrote:
Which part of it did you find the most Aspie, his monotone?


The alien bit for sure. He mentioned it twice with the interviewer. You weren't struck by his alien analogy? I find that ironic as we have this discussion on wrongplanet. I myself used to fantasise about being really badly hurt and upon inspecting the wound seeing cybernetics, that I was adopted by my parents as a robot boy. I've heard this sense of alienation and otherness repeated pretty consistently by people with ASD's and keep in mind Kurt said it in 1993, before high functioning autism was publicly known.

Bun wrote:
And there was a reason I said 'I don't get it', if you look at the first page of the music forum, there's already a discussion about it. It should be read as 'I don't get the multitude of voices saying the same thing', though it's probably due to his popularity.


Okay, my bad. Thanks for eventually reading it though and sharing.



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06 Jul 2012, 9:09 am

Honestly, you're making me want to pay more attention to this guy than I have before. I certainly own (and enjoy) my obligatory 'Nevermind' CD (and own a couple other CDs--maybe even a cassette tape!), but I'd kind of written him off years ago. Not because I don't like his stuff, but, around that time in my life, I started to really have a hard time liking things I perceived to be "fads" or otherwise blown out of proportion. If it was in the news all the time and, furthermore, if those in/around my age group talked about it all the time, I would simply get annoyed with/by it... whatever "it" happened to be. But I'm just the type of assh_le that has to be different and into weird, exotic sh_t.

But having watched that youtube video, I do feel like I can relate to him more than I could in the past, Aspie or not. I've certainly said/felt similar things growing up and to this day.

Anyway, have a great day Dan_Undiagnosed, et al.



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06 Jul 2012, 9:24 am

stumbling_forward wrote:
Anyway, have a great day Dan_Undiagnosed, et al.


You too! :)
I know what you mean about rebelling against what's cool. When Nirvana hit their peak in the early 90's my older brother was a long haired grungy teen who would jump on his bed with a guitar he couldn't play head banging. I didn't want anything to do with that :?
Then Kurt killed himself and the media went wild. I remember when they showed that photograph of Kurt's legs and right arm on the floor of the greenhouse on the news and being horrified. I really recoiled from the whole thing then. I thought that was a ghastly intrusion into someone's most private, final decision (even if it was a bad one).
I've heard older fans of his now just being angry with him blaming the drugs and calling him a loser for giving up and being a junkie (including my older brother who managed to get over some bad addictions). But now I can understand how isolated he might have felt and his descriptions really got to me. A lot of older people like John Elder Robinson talk about how weird and horrible they always felt for not fitting in. A diagnosis might have saved Kurt if he was on the spectrum. The thought that I'm so weird and different because of autism and being on the wrongplanet definitely makes me feel better about it. It explained so many things and it's a shame to think we might have lost so many Kurt Cobains because they were never diagnosed in time.



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06 Jul 2012, 9:53 am

The alien part is interesting, but I guess I'm... Used to it? It's indeed a fantasy kids get engaged in, and get their hearts broken to, but I don't *know* if it's more common to ASD. I'd be interested in knowing how common it is.


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06 Jul 2012, 11:12 am

Not trying to cause a riot here but isn't this similar to the Kurt Cobain Asperger's thread? Don't see much difference except wording and perhaps the discussion but can't this be applied to the other thread?


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06 Jul 2012, 11:50 am

PastFixations wrote:
Not trying to cause a riot here but isn't this similar to the Kurt Cobain Asperger's thread? Don't see much difference except wording and perhaps the discussion but can't this be applied to the other thread?


Yeah, I saw the other one days ago and left it for a while to think about whether I wanted to start a new one instead of dumping a huge post on someone else's. The other one seemed just more like an outright question for opinions and I didn't like the dismissive nature of the responses. Then I found the alien analogy Kurt used which sounded a lot like things I've felt and other people I've heard describe here on WP so that made me think it was worth starting a new thread.



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09 Jul 2012, 4:57 pm

I understand how you could be curious about this subject but to speculate an ASD diagnosis is pretty absurd. Unless you knew Cobain on an extremely personal leve and could have observed his actual behavior and such, the only source of info is aquired from the media. The minute person starts believing the "Idiot" box, you might as well hang up the hat. There are a variety of mental conditions not related to autism that can mimmick autistic traits.


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Dan_Undiagnosed
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09 Jul 2012, 9:37 pm

guitarman2010 wrote:
I understand how you could be curious about this subject but to speculate an ASD diagnosis is pretty absurd.


Can you explain the difference?

guitarman2010 wrote:
Unless you knew Cobain on an extremely personal leve and could have observed his actual behavior and such, the only source of info is aquired from the media. The minute person starts believing the "Idiot" box, you might as well hang up the hat.


Only 3 of my 12 points came from sources other than Cobain speaking about himself autobiographically. It seems like there's more direct personal information than we have about classical musicians and writers that are usually considered to have been autistic.

guitarman2010 wrote:
There are a variety of mental conditions not related to autism that can mimmick autistic traits.


That's true. Just look how many people here on WP seem to think they've been misdiagnosed and that they don't have autism or those who do but were told at first it was something else. Even psychology isn't perfect and I'm not even trying to be that objective about it.
I read this one study that was hilarious. A bunch of people admitted themselves to mental hospitals all describing the same symptom of having heard auditory hallucinations. The person conducting the study told them to immediately act lucidly upon admission to see how long they were kept there before released as sane. All but one were eventually released without having to admit to the farce (one of them had to prove it because they thought the person was certifiable! :lol:) but those who were released were diagnosed as having had a schizophrenic episode. The lie was never detected. In almost every case though the other patients knew the fakers were faking and would say things like "you're here doing some sort of study, aren't you?"
Sometimes even experts can't see the forest for the trees or vice versa.



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10 Dec 2014, 1:51 pm

One song that really makes me think Kurt might have been an Aspie is "Sliver". It reminds me of the way I used to feel when made to stay away from home and expected to do "normal things" that other children do - when all I wanted to do was "be alone" like I was allowed to do at home, because my parents understood me.

Or, maybe not technically "alone", but it's like I sort of understand that there's a sense of being "alone" that doesn't necessarily mean being physically or even mentally alone, it just means that the people around you are respecting your distance, mentally - perhaps even while they are actually talking to you or interacting with you. If that makes sense.

Perhaps what I mean is it's like they are respecting the place that your mind is in at the very moment, and not expecting your mind to be ready to jump into different contexts where the rules seem to be shifting, and you won't be able to figure out what to do and you'll feel like you're going to get blamed for it, or get trapped in a situation where everyone turns on you. If you are regularly put into this situation, the presence of other people can then come to feel intrusive, and so, when you are with people who don't make you feel like that, it's like you then feel a comfortable sense of being "alone" even though you are not.

Actually come to think, this (the feeling of wanting to be alone) describes most of my school days...except for one very nice school. And another, initially bad school, once people finally sussed me out and started to treat me as a normal person with a slight handicap instead of a deranged introvert. (Not that there's anything wrong with being an introvert per se, but people don't like anything they can't understand, do they?)



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17 Dec 2014, 6:18 pm

Dan_Undiagnosed wrote:
I read this one study that was hilarious. A bunch of people admitted themselves to mental hospitals all describing the same symptom of having heard auditory hallucinations. The person conducting the study told them to immediately act lucidly upon admission to see how long they were kept there before released as sane. All but one were eventually released without having to admit to the farce (one of them had to prove it because they thought the person was certifiable! :lol:) but those who were released were diagnosed as having had a schizophrenic episode. The lie was never detected. In almost every case though the other patients knew the fakers were faking and would say things like "you're here doing some sort of study, aren't you?"
Sometimes even experts can't see the forest for the trees or vice versa.


i've read about that while studying a sociology of medicine, often cited by anti-psychiatry movement. in defence of the hospitals, they did fake symptoms to get admitted, and eventually were released with the label 'schizophrenia in remission' which was a rare way to be discharged, guess it would be inappropriate for a hospital to accuse people who presented symptoms of lying