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jch404
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10 Jul 2012, 6:42 pm

Rascal77s wrote:
Callista wrote:
And do I really need to say yet again that IQ is a bunch of meaningless crap, especially when it comes to autistics? I've said it about two dozen times already....


Yes you do :) You'll have to keep saying it because all of the people who use IQ score to prop up their ego are tuning you out. It's in their interest to not hear you.

Along with IQ tests, I think grades don't mean that much. At least have nothing to do with IQ. I went to public school for a year and a half (biggest mistake of my life! Didn't learn anything.) and my GPA was 0.3...probably because I had learned everything already, but I have a high IQ. neither really has anything to do with anything at all though..what's the point?



deltafunction
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10 Jul 2012, 6:57 pm

Giftedness is literally when you score in the top ~98 percentile, or around 130+ IQ (I forget the exact numbers). They literally determine it by having you take an IQ/intelligence test (ex the WAIS)

Asperger's Syndrome though is a developmental disability characterised by certain behaviours, which you can find on Tony Attwood's site, or any other credible site on AS. It is determined by an observation of your behavioural patterns, as well as an observation or account of your developmental history. It can also be determined by an interview and accounts about your social behaviour. Then the observations are compared to the diagnostic criteria in the DSM (-IV currently). If your behavioural pattern fits, then you have AS.

You can have both, depending on your results in each analysis.



ooo
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11 Jul 2012, 12:56 am

"IQ scores are used as predictors of educational achievement, special needs, job performance and income."
Similarly, standardized test scores in high school predict future college success (or failure).

The norm is 100, so:

Mildly Gifted -- 115 to 129
Moderately Gifted -- 130 to 144
Highly Gifted -- 145 to 159
Exceptionally Gifted -- 160 to 179
Profoundly Gifted -- 180

The higher the IQ, the greater your likelihood for educational success and achievement.

Poor grades either reflect lack of effort, or a lack of aptitude to process the material. If someone barely musters Ds on lower level high school material, it's not very likely they'll get a Ph.D. in Microbiology. If a student scores in the lower 10% on the ACT or SAT, it's highly unlikely that they would succeed-- or even pass-- a rigorous top tier college program of study.

Some students (i.e., "gifted students") get bad grades from a lack of effort because they're not being challenge enough. These are the exceptions.

The "norm" IQ of 100 in a student often means that that student receives "normal" grades-- likely B- and C+s. Their peak performance is not as high as someone with an IQ of 180-- with proper effort, the results usually mean the higher the IQ, the higher the grades, and the higher aptitude for higher learning. That's why "superior gifted students" can attend med school at age 10, while their classmate is having a hard time with basic addition and subtraction (or, coloring books, for that matter). Aptitude is important, and IQ is part of your realistic aptitude.



ooo
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11 Jul 2012, 1:03 am

Those with Asperger's tend to have normal to somewhat higher IQs.

Those with classic Autism tend to have relatively lower IQs.

"The majority of students diagnosed
with autism have IQ scores categoriz-
ing them with intellectual disability,
with only one third (25%–33%) having
an IQ in the average or above-average
range (Heflin & Alaimo, 2007)."

Those who are mentally ret*d tend to have IQs in the range of:

Class ------------- IQ
Profound mental retardation ------------- Below 20
Severe mental retardation ------------- 20–34
Moderate mental retardation ------------- 35–49
Mild mental retardation ------------- 50–69
Borderline intellectual functioning ------------- 70–84

IQ tests "measure intellectual capacity based on oral language, vocabulary, numerical reasoning, memory, motor speed and analysis skills."

Someone with a low IQ has a much, much more difficult time learning certain subjects than someone with a higher IQ. If you've ever worked with mentally ret*d children, some struggle greatly with basic addition (2+2=4), and some simply can never understand it-- depending on the profundity of their mental retardation, of course.

Some people with autism, particularly Asperger's, have too high of an IQ to "qualify" for group groups, as their IQ shows that they are too high functioning.

State-supported living centers cater to disabled people with IQs under 70 — and generally caps community-based care at an IQ of 75.



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11 Jul 2012, 1:36 am

ooo wrote:
Poor grades either reflect lack of effort, or a lack of aptitude to process the material.


You forget a pathological lack of interest in the material, which is an AS symptom (DSM-IV-TR and its description of AS).

That's the main reason why I did poorly at school in the latter years when study was up to me (your hand is held in the early years of school). I studied alright, it just wasn't school.



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11 Jul 2012, 3:26 am

On a basic level, my understanding is that gifted individuals are good in all spheres and abilities (at at least, average) but not splintered i.e. excellent in some areas and below average in others.


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11 Jul 2012, 11:57 am

ooo wrote:
"

The higher the IQ, the greater your likelihood for educational success and achievement.



.....as long as you bother to take the time to account for the gazillion other variables that influence "success," of which "high IQ" may not even be the most important factor.


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11 Jul 2012, 12:34 pm

If you have an IQ above a certain cutoff, you're gifted. If you have a normal or low IQ but a specific ability well above normal, you're talented. You don't have to have done something remarkable to be gifted/talented - doing those remarkable things often has as much to do with the circumstances and with luck as it has to do with the skills of the person who does it. Take the difference between a musically talented kid whose affluent parents get him the best music teachers, and who catches the attention of a big name music producer whose son goes to that kid's private school; and a musically talented kid living on the wrong side of the tracks playing songs with his bicycle spokes, who gets guitar lessons as a teenager, never gets much professional recognition but is known and appreciated by his family and friends for being musically talented. They could have the same level of innate talent, but their circumstances were different.

Regarding how to distinguish gifted from gifted+AS, my advice would be to ask the question - how bad are your weaknesses? If you have specific areas in which your skills are significantly below average, this suggests that you have a disability in addition to being gifted.

For example, I'm gifted - IQ of 137, unusually good creative writing skills, can get good marks without studying if I'm interested. But I am significantly below average in executive functions, motor skills and social skills, and that can't be explained by giftedness.

However, I don't think I am gifted and AS, as if those are separate pieces of me. I think I'm gifted-AS - I'm gifted in an AS way, and my gifts and disabilities are two sides of the same coin. For example, creativity and executive dysfunction are linked, which is why the stereotypical creative personality is disorganized, impulsive and has mood swings. Some people have developed creative talents as a side effect of frontotemporal dementia, a condition in which the frontal lobes are temporal lobes progressively deteriorate (it has a prognosis similar to Alzheimer's Disease, but a different pattern of strengths and weaknesses in the earlier stages). Doesn't mean every creative person has executive dysfunction (I'd name the fantasy author Piers Anthony as a counter-example, from how he describes his creative process) but there is a connection.

See, IQ and other linear measures of skills are actually an illusion. The underlying difference in cognition and learning between three people with IQs of 150, 100, and 50 is not a linear difference. Each one has a distinct learning style, with some being more effective for learning certain things. If your learning style is highly efficient for learning most things, you'll be gifted. If it's highly inefficient for most things, you'll be mentally ret*d. (For example, evidence shows that DS infants often learn cognitive skills, fail to practice them, and forget them, only to relearn them later. This inefficient learning style causes them to fall behind other children, but proper education can somewhat compensate, which is why DS people are so sensitive to the beneficial effects of early intervention and the harmful effects of institutionalization.) It's just that it's very hard to measure the underlying learning styles, and a lot easier to take a linear measure of what skills you've learnt so far. Some are just basic knowledge, some are learning 'how to think' about certain problems, but either way, IQ tests tend to test what you've learnt rather than how well you learn. They're only useful because the two are correlated.



VisInsita
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11 Jul 2012, 1:53 pm

Very few threads here without the mention of IQ or self-proclaimed giftedness… Both human constructions I detest.

In which country are these aforementioned labels given as some sort of a standard procedure? Was it part of the diagnostic practice? Or was it even given to you within the school system?

And when did giftedness become a label with a numerical value - sort of a syndrome diagnosable with a single test? In my opinion nature’s creativity and gifts are in action all the time all over. But you do not attune to them (or should I say it) via some standardized test.



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11 Jul 2012, 3:15 pm

Where the line gets blurry is determining whether certain traits and behaviors are more indicative of neuropsychiatric disorders or "giftedness." Many behaviors exhibited in gifted children are the same as those found in certain neuropsych disorders, such as sensory issues. Like Callista said, it is more than possible to be gifted alone, to have AS or another neuropsych disorder alone, or to have both. But the fascinating aspect is getting to tease out why there ARE so many instances of both giftedness and neuropsych disorders in the same person. Same with how savantism works. Just what about the different brain circuitry is able to "unlock" certain abilities most humans don't have?


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11 Jul 2012, 3:15 pm

VisInsita wrote:
Very few threads here without the mention of IQ or self-proclaimed giftedness… Both human constructions I detest.

In which country are these aforementioned labels given as some sort of a standard procedure? Was it part of the diagnostic practice? Or was it even given to you within the school system?

And when did giftedness become a label with a numerical value - sort of a syndrome diagnosable with a single test? In my opinion nature’s creativity and gifts are in action all the time all over. But you do not attune to them (or should I say it) via some standardized test.


Agreed.

In the U.S., the designation of "giftedness" seems to boil down to whether or not a teacher/professional/parent thinks you have a "special" personality.

Seriously, some of the "gifted" traits I've seen listed include stupid crap like, "the child asks deep questions," or "the child is good at jigsaw puzzles."

WTF? How does one objectively determine that?

Personally, I'd like to see a school system wherein all children had their individual strengths and weaknesses addressed without resorting to labels like "gifted," or "special needs."


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11 Jul 2012, 5:14 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see a school system wherein all children had their individual strengths and weaknesses addressed without resorting to labels like "gifted," or "special needs."


That would be the best school ever!



ooo
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12 Jul 2012, 11:47 am

Dillogic wrote:
ooo wrote:
Poor grades either reflect lack of effort, or a lack of aptitude to process the material.


You forget a pathological lack of interest in the material, which is an AS symptom (DSM-IV-TR and its description of AS).

That's the main reason why I did poorly at school in the latter years when study was up to me (your hand is held in the early years of school). I studied alright, it just wasn't school.


Lack of effort tends to stem from lack of interest in a subject matter. If I'm not interested in a subject, I naturally want to put forth less effort.