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Sweetleaf
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23 Jul 2012, 7:50 pm

Matt62 wrote:
Doubtful. Seems more like paranoid schizophrenia. He seems to have believed he was the Joker from the last Batman flick.
Definitely drugged for court-appearence. For sympathy or is he really THAT violent.
I doubt Asperger's in the extreme. If there is a medical reason for this horror/atrocity it might be a brain tumor like the Bell Tower shooter at UT years ago.

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All I've heard is he said that, but nothing to prove that he actually believes it or that he has any form of schizophrenia...the way it was planned and carried out does not seem to match up with the disorganized thought process of schizophrenia or a state of psychosis considering he was planning it for months.


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Sweetleaf
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23 Jul 2012, 7:53 pm

Surfman wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And I think it would be terrible to look at young males with AS away from home as potential mass murderers rather than human beings, there isn't an exact mold people who commit such crimes fit into so its stupid to try and create one not to mention it only causes stigma for those who might fit that profile.....

.....there is nothing about having autism that causes violence.


meltdowns??

But yes I agree with not pigeon holing young aspie males.

If anything, I would point the finger at our leaders and their cultural paradigm that regularly creates these sad and lonely monsters

Yet. I would like to see these events occurring less frequently, which can only occur if we all talk about it in an honest and progressive manner.

rather than the normal human habit of avoidance and denial


A meltdown due to too much stress and/or overload and a carefully planned mass shooting are hardly the same thing. For one meltdowns are not planned and also I doubt anyone who has a meltdown wants to hurt anyone its just sometimes the result depending but its not direct violence like the shooting. But as I've said before if a mental disorder or delusional state of mind was a factor it should be considered...but to jump to conclusions that he must have had this or that mental disorder based on stupid stereotypes created by fictional movies and the media.


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Surfman
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23 Jul 2012, 8:52 pm

he looked a bit Canadian?



Verdandi
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23 Jul 2012, 9:34 pm

James Holmes is about as likely to be autistic as he is to be a Martian. I also doubt he's bipolar or schizophrenic.

However, "normal" people don't go on shooting sprees. Someone does something like this, they are almost certainly diagnosable with something.



Sweetleaf
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23 Jul 2012, 9:59 pm

Verdandi wrote:
James Holmes is about as likely to be autistic as he is to be a Martian. I also doubt he's bipolar or schizophrenic.

However, "normal" people don't go on shooting sprees. Someone does something like this, they are almost certainly diagnosable with something.


I disagree, that is exactly the sort of generalization that keeps the stigma against mental illness going. Why cant a normal person commit such a crime? I mean I don't belive they are over all morally superior to mentally ill people or that they cannot do horrible things. Just look at Nazi Germany or the Salem Witch trials. You want to say everyone involved in things like that were 'messed up in the head.'

Now I understand the sort of logic behind the comment that one girl made to me during a lock down.....I was 'quiet', 'different', 'smart' and a loner(though not by choice) so she was surprised I wasn't the psychopath with the gun. When it is a mentally ill person who does it though maybe its this sort of stigma that alienates them even further. But being filled with hate and killing is not a mental illness it is unfortunately something all humans are capable of.


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catster32
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23 Jul 2012, 10:00 pm

I think it is possible yes aspies can have trouble socialising with isolation and bullying. Of course that is never an excuse to do what JH did but it may if he is aspie and or other things go some way to explaining his state of mind. If aspies are pushed hard enough like everyone they can snap. I have been critisisised personally by people elsewhere for suggesting it but I am not the only one to say it as is expressed here. Some are aspies like anyone can go bad it doesn't mean all aspies are bad. If you type in James Holmes Asperger's into google you will see there is al ot of speculation on this.



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23 Jul 2012, 10:44 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I disagree, that is exactly the sort of generalization that keeps the stigma against mental illness going. Why cant a normal person commit such a crime? I mean I don't belive they are over all morally superior to mentally ill people or that they cannot do horrible things. Just look at Nazi Germany or the Salem Witch trials. You want to say everyone involved in things like that were 'messed up in the head.'


If you've read the other thread that discussed this same topic, you would know that I do not think James Holmes has any mental illness at all. Mentally ill people in general are more likely to be targeted for violence than commit it.

A "normal" person is unlikely to commit such a crime for a variety of reasons - most of them virtually identical to the reasons that mentally ill people are unlikely to commit such a crime. The kind of murder you see from most people are crimes of passion - that is, often impulsive and likely fueled by emotion. You're not going to find such people spending months quietly planning a murder spree.

Quote:
Now I understand the sort of logic behind the comment that one girl made to me during a lock down.....I was 'quiet', 'different', 'smart' and a loner(though not by choice) so she was surprised I wasn't the psychopath with the gun. When it is a mentally ill person who does it though maybe its this sort of stigma that alienates them even further. But being filled with hate and killing is not a mental illness it is unfortunately something all humans are capable of.


I believe that you believe that, but I do not think it is true. The simple fact is if most people were capable of this, it would happen significantly more often than it actually does.

I think most humans are capable of killing. I do not think most humans are capable of killing in the way James Holmes approached it.



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23 Jul 2012, 10:51 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I disagree, that is exactly the sort of generalization that keeps the stigma against mental illness going. Why cant a normal person commit such a crime? I mean I don't belive they are over all morally superior to mentally ill people or that they cannot do horrible things. Just look at Nazi Germany or the Salem Witch trials. You want to say everyone involved in things like that were 'messed up in the head.'


If you've read the other thread that discussed this same topic, you would know that I do not think James Holmes has any mental illness at all. Mentally ill people in general are more likely to be targeted for violence than commit it.

A "normal" person is unlikely to commit such a crime for a variety of reasons - most of them virtually identical to the reasons that mentally ill people are unlikely to commit such a crime. The kind of murder you see from most people are crimes of passion - that is, often impulsive and likely fueled by emotion. You're not going to find such people spending months quietly planning a murder spree.

Quote:
Now I understand the sort of logic behind the comment that one girl made to me during a lock down.....I was 'quiet', 'different', 'smart' and a loner(though not by choice) so she was surprised I wasn't the psychopath with the gun. When it is a mentally ill person who does it though maybe its this sort of stigma that alienates them even further. But being filled with hate and killing is not a mental illness it is unfortunately something all humans are capable of.


I believe that you believe that, but I do not think it is true. The simple fact is if most people were capable of this, it would happen significantly more often than it actually does.

I think most humans are capable of killing. I do not think most humans are capable of killing in the way James Holmes approached it.


What I mean is both people with and without mental disorders are capable of doing terrible things like this...not that the majority of either group is more capable of it. What I more mean is I think anyone could probably be pushed to the point of doing something like that or even just go along with it if its deemed socially acceptable(hence it being socially acceptable to discriminate against various groups in nazi germany for instance). Also I think some people are sadists who enjoy inflicting pain on others...which isn't nessisarily a mental illness I mean even people who bully are behaving sadistically too some degree.


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Verdandi
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23 Jul 2012, 11:03 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
What I mean is both people with and without mental disorders are capable of doing terrible things like this...not that the majority of either group is more capable of it. What I more mean is I think anyone could probably be pushed to the point of doing something like that or even just go along with it if its deemed socially acceptable(hence it being socially acceptable to discriminate against various groups in nazi germany for instance). Also I think some people are sadists who enjoy inflicting pain on others...which isn't nessisarily a mental illness I mean even people who bully are behaving sadistically too some degree.


I know that you meant that, but I do not agree with it. The idea of people being pushed to an extreme and snapping is cultural mythology. It doesn't really happen. The people who do appear to snap tend to have something seriously wrong with their brains (such as the brain tumor referenced for the UT clock tower shooter earlier in this thread), or they tend to be psychopathic or sociopathic.

If you read about the Milgram experiments, they do not demonstrate that anyone can do something monstrous. Instead, they demonstrate that when an authority figure tells them to continue, many do despite what their conscience tells them. This is not the same thing.

Someone who enjoys inflicting nonconsensual pain on others is not normal. They are outside the range of normal.

Discrimination is horrible and people who perpetrate it do refuse to acknowledge the effects of their prejudices and hatreds, and tend to blame the targets for being targets in the first place. However, I doubt that most "normal" people would "snap" and start shooting up gay people or black people or disabled people.

What happened in Nazi Germany is not as simple as "everyone went along with it." But what did happen is in line with Milgram's experiments: People who did go along with it did so because authority said that's the way things were to be. However, many resisted to varying degrees.

You're conflating several issues into one single thing.



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23 Jul 2012, 11:17 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
What I mean is both people with and without mental disorders are capable of doing terrible things like this...not that the majority of either group is more capable of it. What I more mean is I think anyone could probably be pushed to the point of doing something like that or even just go along with it if its deemed socially acceptable(hence it being socially acceptable to discriminate against various groups in nazi germany for instance). Also I think some people are sadists who enjoy inflicting pain on others...which isn't nessisarily a mental illness I mean even people who bully are behaving sadistically too some degree.


I know that you meant that, but I do not agree with it. The idea of people being pushed to an extreme and snapping is cultural mythology. It doesn't really happen. The people who do appear to snap tend to have something seriously wrong with their brains (such as the brain tumor referenced for the UT clock tower shooter earlier in this thread), or they tend to be psychopathic or sociopathic.

I don't think this guy was pushed to an extreme and snapped......I think people can be pushed to an extreme and snap, but I doubt it would resemble this incident with the whole planning it out for months thing. Also I don't see why a psychopath or sociopath would have to 'snap' to do something like that...however I think most people mentally ill or not could certainly be pushed to snap and act violently but I doubt it would be in such an organized planned out manner.


If you read about the Milgram experiments, they do not demonstrate that anyone can do something monstrous. Instead, they demonstrate that when an authority figure tells them to continue, many do despite what their conscience tells them. This is not the same thing.

To me that experiment does show normal people are capable of terrible things...I mean authority figure or not why would you continue inflicting extreme pain on someone like they were made to think they were doing for the experiment. That would be the whole thing with it being 'socially acceptable' and thus ok even if their conscience said no.


Someone who enjoys inflicting nonconsensual pain on others is not normal. They are outside the range of normal.

Maybe, but what about those who go along with it?.......for instance when I was the outcast in school who got bullied, I don't think the kids who joined in with the bullying out of wanting to remain popular were to upset by their bullying of me. Also maybe most people do not necessarily enjoy inflicting pain on others directly but humans even the normal ones can be cruel, to always pin it on the mentally ill is BS in my opinion.


Discrimination is horrible and people who perpetrate it do refuse to acknowledge the effects of their prejudices and hatreds, and tend to blame the targets for being targets in the first place. However, I doubt that most "normal" people would "snap" and start shooting up gay people or black people or disabled people.

Neither would most 'mentally ill/disordered' people.

What happened in Nazi Germany is not as simple as "everyone went along with it." But what did happen is in line with Milgram's experiments: People who did go along with it did so because authority said that's the way things were to be. However, many resisted to varying degrees.

You're conflating several issues into one single thing.


I know that, I was just using it as an example that normal people can be capable of terrible things like mass shootings, discrimination against specific groups and even burning fellow humans to death at the stake. I don't see how I am confusing several issues into a single thing I am well aware these are separate issues its not like I think all this is directly connected I was using examples of people doing terrible things throughout history.


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23 Jul 2012, 11:37 pm

Holmes was clearly able to hyperfocus, otherwise he wouldn't have succeeded as a layman in building bombs complex enough to confuse even career ATF bomb guys, especially 30 of them. I don't know that autistics are the only group able to hyperfocus, just putting that out there.



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24 Jul 2012, 12:12 am

MyFutureSelfnMe wrote:
Holmes was clearly able to hyperfocus, otherwise he wouldn't have succeeded as a layman in building bombs complex enough to confuse even career ATF bomb guys, especially 30 of them. I don't know that autistics are the only group able to hyperfocus, just putting that out there.


Well considering its unlikely all who play with bombs have autism, I imagine they aren't the only group....even neurotypicals have obsessions and talents. So I don't really see the connection there really.


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24 Jul 2012, 12:12 am

the only thing that can come out of this is stigma. for the same reason i don't tell people i have SLD. the only thing worse than people not knowing what something is, is when people think they know what something is.

if i tell some one close to me that i have learning disabilities, i mite as well tell them i have an IQ of 10. because that's what they think it is

i would hate for people to be wary of people that have aspergers because of an associations to violent behavior.

for some resin aspergers is in the Media quite frequently anymore. tack Glee and South Park for instance. thees are NOT positive portrays.

you do not want people to think of you as a sociopath if you are quiet and don't know how to flirt.

i do not think he is autistic. and if he happens to be, i hope it never goes public.



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24 Jul 2012, 12:24 am

I bet he does.

For some people, social isolation makes them..."crazy"; ASDs don't change people's innate desire for such. Some are lucky in that they don't care all that much about social isolation, whereas others seem to be really bothered by it.

Martin Bryant and Anders Brevik have such, and an argument can be made for Cho. All were socially isolated.



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24 Jul 2012, 12:28 am

If anything he is a Sociopath. Which is a term that was made up so that as has been said, he can be disassociated from "normal" people because it would make them uncomfortable to think that someone of sound mind like they view themselves could commit such a heinous crime


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24 Jul 2012, 12:34 am

deltafunction wrote:
Why does Loner + Murder = AS?

I'm waiting to see the details of his personal life.


because it equals Media sensationalism and scapegoating! also creates a false sense of comfort for the NT majority


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