Autism Speaks' Response to Joe Scarborough's Autism Comments

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Verdandi
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06 Aug 2012, 2:29 am

Dillogic wrote:
The more you read into it, the more stereotypical he is of a certain manifestation of ASD (not the rampage killing. That's totally different, of course, where no one really knows the full reasons for such; lots of speculation. I think perceived persecution might be a big factor. Just saying "psychopathy" like people do isn't it).


I didn't "just say" psychopathy. I pointed out that ADHD + conduct disorder presents a high risk for psychopathy, and violent behavior is consistent with CD and psychopathy.



Dillogic
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06 Aug 2012, 2:45 am

I didn't mean you.

I saw a program where a professional blamed Martin's actions on psychopathy. I think that's too simple. Martin himself said it was social ostracisation and bullying by the community as his reasons (he used to be teased when he'd go out in the community due to his eccentric behaviour); that alone is a factor that has nothing to do with psychopathy. Just because someone kills others, doesn't mean they're a psychopath.



aghogday
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06 Aug 2012, 6:48 am

Verdandi wrote:
aghogday wrote:
I disagree, Scarborough specifically indicated that he did not know if his theory applied to Holmes in this specific case as well as specifically indicating that he did not have enough information to make an opinion on this specific case.

He was addressing what he described as a general phenomenon that he has derived a personal opinion on from what he has observed from the past, and was careful not to provide an opinion on this specific case, per Holmes. Whether or not his intentions were sincere is something one can speculate on, but never the less he made it clear, in his statement, that he was not attempting to diagnose Holmes, with either mental illness or place him on the autism scale, as he didn't know the specifics about him.


I know you disagree, which is why I explained why I think your point is wrong. I tried to explain how a disclaimer at the start is often meaningless and evasive, rather than factual. That he used it means nothing because the actual message he sent was "autistic people are potentially mass murderers." He even used the phrase "more often than not" while stating this. His statement "I don't know" is completely contradicted by the rest of his statement. Hinging your argument on that statement places relevance where there is no relevance. This is not much different from how people would react to me when I said their arguments were stupid - that is, they would react as if I said they were stupid. Both you and I would realize that calling an argument stupid is not akin to calling a person stupid, but people don't see that distinction, they react to the emotional content of the language used.

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Also, if you have come across a statement somewhere where I have actually argued with someone as to how they should react to something or argued with someone that they should not dislike Autism Speaks, please provide that quote, as I cannot recollect arguing either of those two personal points with an individual on this site, as I attempt to direct my viewpoints toward the issue instead of the person.


You can look at the majority of autism speaks threads in this forum or in the "Autism Politics, Activism, and Media Representation" forum, in which every time someone criticizes Autism Speaks, you repeatedly state that Autism Speaks no longer engages in activities that they are criticized for, until the thread becomes nothing but your arguments and attempts to respond to them, and the original point is lost or pushed aside. You have made it clear on multiple occasions that criticisms of Autism Speaks are incorrect whether the criticism in question is correct or not because you do not see evidence of them having done these things recently. Some of them are incorrect - I won't argue that. But I think that you leave very little room for discussion because it is impossible to have a discussion without the thread getting swamped with walls of text over what Autism Speaks is supposedly like now.

And of course it's not autism speaks. You have, for example, insured that I won't post about the murder of disabled people by their caretakers on this forum because you fill those threads with walls of text filled with excuses and rationalizations for that behavior, and seem to be unwilling to allow any statement that such murders are wrong to go by unchallenged. I know you say that such murders anger you, but I also know that you present fairly voluminous arguments as to why the killers are victims rather than perpetrators.

I've started bowing out of these threads because I don't want to get sucked into trying to pick through hundreds or thousands of words of semantic nitpicking and hair splitting just to clarify my position or counter other arguments. It's exhausting. The main reason I am involved here is because I am frustrated that after I asked that this not happen, you went ahead with it anyway.



While these type of disclaimers can be meaningless, only Scarborough can clarify whether or not his disclaimer was sincere. There is a difference in providing an assertion or opinion that his disclaimer was sincere or meaningless and making a claim that he asserted a statement that he did not assert.

"I don't know if it is the case here", or "I don't know the specifics on Holmes", is an assertion that he does not know whether or not Holmes has a mental health condition or is on the autism scale. He makes that assertion twice in his full comment.

I agree with you that his full statement does suggest or imply that there is the potential that Holmes has a mental health condition and is on what he describes as the "Autism Scale", based on what Scarborough perceives as happening in the past, and I personally do not agree with his viewpoint or believe there is evidence for it, but no where in that statement does Scarborough assert that Holmes probably has autism and that autism explains the rampage killing that Holmes is accused of. That assertion does not exist in his comment.

I've often asked for evidence in discussions where autism speaks is discussed where a claim that has not been evidenced is presented, and I have provided evidence to back up my points. I admit I do that a lot and I am sorry if you don't like it, but I do my best to play be the rules of this web site in discussing the issue. Your initial assertion was that my argument was it is incorrect to dislike autism speaks, and I asked you to provide evidence of where I made that argument, as I do not believe it is incorrect to dislike autism speaks.

I have never provided an argument that the killers are the victims rather than the perpetrators nor have I ever provided an argument that the killers are the victim instead of the victim, which I am guessing that you misspoke, as the killer and the perpetrator are one and the same, and I made it clear that that I do not believe the killers are the victims; you have suggested I have provided this argument before, and I asked you politely not to suggest it unless you can provide a quote where I actually provided that argument. You did not provide a quote where I made that argument, and I can link you to that discussion if you like.

My point in that argument has consistently been that some human beings will express empathy for others who do bad things, depending on the circumstances surrounding the person and the incident, but it is not necessarily either an advocacy for the crime, or an assertion/implication that the killer is the victim rather than the victim.

I can tell you now on a personal level that while I might feel a little bit of empathy for Holmes, if he has lost his mind, because of an organic brain dysfunction, as that is the feeling I got from watching him in the court room, whether my intuition is correct or incorrect, that is not empathy or justification for the horrific crime that only he is responsible for and not a reduction of empathy or respect for any of the victims of that crime. I don't like to see any human being suffer; maybe I have too much empathy. Potentially part of the reason some people believe in the death penalty and some people don't, and why some get a thrill over violent stuff and others don't. Different levels of empathy, mixed in with different cultural beliefs and practices.



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06 Aug 2012, 9:02 am

Verdandi wrote:
Bryant was also diagnosed with ADHD + conduct disorder, which is per Dr. Russell Barkley a very high predictor for psychopathy, and even without the psychopathy is fairly severe and problematic.

Asperger's Syndrome would not explain his decision to go on a killing spree. However, conduct disorder and psychopathy very well could have.

Sorry for misreading you. I got the context wrong.

Anyway, very intresting discussion.


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aghogday
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06 Aug 2012, 4:39 pm

Dillogic wrote:
aghogday,

The DSM-IV-TR allows mild MR if it's tested as such during the school years and there's no apparent cognitive and/or self-help delays reported during childhood (he has a reported delay of speech though); it states it near the end of the description IIRC. He's most likely one of those cases that border on AS and AD, that improve as they age; Lorna Wing gives a case study on such in one of her original five (I think it was five). Even if you had a speech delay, but you meet all of the symptoms of AS as an adult (and not ones for AD; AD ones are extreme aloofness or passive behavior, constantly rocking, and the usual stereotypical AD symptoms), they give you AS.

The more you read into it, the more stereotypical he is of a certain manifestation of ASD (not the rampage killing. That's totally different, of course, where no one really knows the full reasons for such; lots of speculation. I think perceived persecution might be a big factor. Just saying "psychopathy" like people do isn't it).


https://sites.google.com/site/gavinbollard/about-aspergers/dsm-iv-criteria-for-aspergers

Quote:
e.g.,when the Mental Retardation becomes apparent only in the school years, with no apparent cognitive or language delay in the first years of life)


I haven't seen anything in the DSMIVTR that suggests an individual with a clinically significant speech delay as described can be diagnosed with aspergers; however, even if the aspergers diagnosis is incorrect based on just the speech delay, he would have still met criteria for PDD NOS.

And in addition if the Aspergers diagnosis was excluded because of lack of RRB's which is the required criteria that Mullen disputes he could have definitely still met the criteria for PDD NOS, as one could be diagnosed with that disorder at that time if they only met the criteria for either the social interaction impairments or the social communication impairments, as only one of the triad were required at that time per DSMIV crititeria.

He likely would have met both those criteria, with his social communication difficulties, and was already determined to have met the social interaction impairment criteria.

I don't question a diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder, just the Asperger diagnosis based on the verbal delay, and while I had some difficulty finding the association of mental retardation in associated features, in the DSMIVTR, I found the clause quoted above but it does appear to only be relevant when there is no significant verbal delay.

The only way I can see that he was diagnosed with Aspergers in 2008, is if his prison psychiatrist was not aware of his verbal difficulties in childhood, ignored them, or they determined that the delay was not clinically significant, as those details of actual age when he started putting words together are not provided anywhere that I have been able to find online.



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06 Aug 2012, 5:21 pm

Thanks for the lively discussion about diagnosis. So far it's about 20,000 words more than I care to read considering the topic of the tread. Please feel free to type to your hearts content until I can ask a mod to lock it. Don't worry there will be plenty of other threads to hijack :)



Verdandi
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06 Aug 2012, 7:40 pm

Dillogic wrote:
I didn't mean you.

I saw a program where a professional blamed Martin's actions on psychopathy. I think that's too simple. Martin himself said it was social ostracisation and bullying by the community as his reasons (he used to be teased when he'd go out in the community due to his eccentric behaviour); that alone is a factor that has nothing to do with psychopathy. Just because someone kills others, doesn't mean they're a psychopath.


All true.

It would shape his reactions, but he is not required to be a psychopath to have those reactions.



Verdandi
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06 Aug 2012, 7:40 pm

Mayel wrote:
Sorry for misreading you. I got the context wrong.

Anyway, very intresting discussion.


It's fine. Thank you. :)



aghogday
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06 Aug 2012, 8:13 pm

Rascal77s wrote:
Thanks for the lively discussion about diagnosis. So far it's about 20,000 words more than I care to read considering the topic of the tread. Please feel free to type to your hearts content until I can ask a mod to lock it. Don't worry there will be plenty of other threads to hijack :)


Sorry, I agree that the diagnosis of Martin is somewhat off topic, but it is associated with rampage killings and in reaction to the petition letter linked directly associated with autism speaks response that provided incorrect information as to the number of individuals diagnosed with autism, involved in mass murders, as Martin has been reported as diagnosed with an ASD.



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06 Aug 2012, 8:46 pm

aghogday wrote:
Rascal77s wrote:
Thanks for the lively discussion about diagnosis. So far it's about 20,000 words more than I care to read considering the topic of the tread. Please feel free to type to your hearts content until I can ask a mod to lock it. Don't worry there will be plenty of other threads to hijack :)


Sorry, I agree that the diagnosis of Martin is somewhat off topic, but it is associated with rampage killings and in reaction to the petition letter linked directly associated with autism speaks response that provided incorrect information as to the number of individuals diagnosed with autism, involved in mass murders, as Martin has been reported as diagnosed with an ASD.


I get it but, how far do you want to pursue a chain of events leading to him flipping out. It seems like there's no end to the chain. Lets just say a butterfly farted in costa rica changing air currents ever so slightly leading his mother to sneeze in CO and delivering him prematurely which caused his problems. If we're going to guess and speculate for 4 pages might as well go all the way.



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06 Aug 2012, 9:07 pm

Yes. the struggle is a challenge, but so are thier lives. So what? I could care less about any organization mostley because they are nothing but a street gang all cleaned up and presentable. they lie, cheat, steal and bully others. If you dont think like them they bust out thier colors. now they wanna jump you!



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06 Aug 2012, 11:57 pm

Rascal77s wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Rascal77s wrote:
Thanks for the lively discussion about diagnosis. So far it's about 20,000 words more than I care to read considering the topic of the tread. Please feel free to type to your hearts content until I can ask a mod to lock it. Don't worry there will be plenty of other threads to hijack :)


Sorry, I agree that the diagnosis of Martin is somewhat off topic, but it is associated with rampage killings and in reaction to the petition letter linked directly associated with autism speaks response that provided incorrect information as to the number of individuals diagnosed with autism, involved in mass murders, as Martin has been reported as diagnosed with an ASD.


I get it but, how far do you want to pursue a chain of events leading to him flipping out. It seems like there's no end to the chain. Lets just say a butterfly farted in costa rica changing air currents ever so slightly leading his mother to sneeze in CO and delivering him prematurely which caused his problems. If we're going to guess and speculate for 4 pages might as well go all the way.


That is pretty much why I am in opposition, to Scarborough's quote; what results in human behavior is very complex. The illustration of the issue of Bryant Martin has been studied for over a decade, yet there is still some disagreement over what his current diagnosis is.

Scarborough at least, made a wise choice in his disclaimer, in attempting to diagnose Holmes on TV, but at this point I am still not completely sure what his full intentions were in making the comment, as it was disjointed and wasn't really clear what he meant by an autism scale as far as some symptoms of autism, per problems in social interaction that can result in social isolation, as part of the "broader autism phenotype" or a full diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder.

It's obviously an emotional issue for him as he likely has personal concerns for his son, in the rough and tough society, that he feels inspired to share when an opportunity arises in his place of media influence, but this incident was not a good environment to try to make a point about the support needed by individuals on the spectrum where some do indeed experience problems with mental health, and lack proper support to cope in life.

I don't see it possible to ever get it cleared up, corrected, and apologized for unless someone actually does interview him with his cooperative effort, and asks those type of questions.



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07 Aug 2012, 12:11 am

outofplace wrote:
Mirror21 wrote:
redrobin62 wrote:
The more I read about Autism Speaks, the more worthless they appear. They seem to be all about the money. Joe Scarborough's "clarification" was simply a sidestep. Autism Speaks accepts it as an apology because Scarborough is one of their funding sources. You know what they say - you don't bite the hand that feeds you. That's the case here. If any one of the thousands of us on WP call or write to Autism Soeaks to hear our story, they'd cast us aside like a used dish towel. If we came bearing gifts, well, that's a different story.


Yeah I am wondering who autism speaks talks for?


From what I have read, it speaks for parents having a pity party over having a child who is autistic.


I wonder whether or when they'll actually practice what they preach when they say "Autism speaks. It's time to listen."