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greentigress
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26 Aug 2012, 3:40 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Only way you can have both is if you have always had autism in your childhood and then when you reached your teens or young adulthood, you start to hallucinate and show signs of schizophrenia.

This is how it was for me
Showed Symptoms of aspergers since infancy
Became paranoid( for starters) age 17 to19 diagnosed age 18 with paranoid sz
I was reclassified as Schizoaffective in A hospital where I was for 3 months at the end of 9 months psychotic
I have had enduring psychosis, mood elements, with a lifetime of being Aspie

Interesting to read that you cant have schizophrenia and aspergers co morbidly. that my current psychiatrist is more keen for me to take care of my mental health by stressing A dx of Asperger's would not interfere with a lifelong need to take meds against psychosis



LaPelirroja
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26 Aug 2012, 4:32 pm

No, there is no history of Schizophrenia or anything similar in my family, thank God. There's ADD, Autism, Bipolar, and OCD (on both sides), but definitely not Schizophrenia.



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26 Aug 2012, 4:38 pm

I believe you can have childhood schizophrenia (although it is rare)



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26 Aug 2012, 4:57 pm

I suspect a diagnosis of Schizophrenia could occur first with a diagnosis of Autism being detected later on.....especially for females...being THAT Autism can be difficult to evaluate in them.

*Just an opinion and be taken as such


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26 Aug 2012, 5:28 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
MynameisAnna wrote:
I have both.
I was diagnosed with autism at age six.
I was diagnosed with schizophrenia at age seventeen.


I makes me wonder then, whether it's not only a case of AS being misdiagnosed in some cases as schizophrenia, but possibly their understanding of schizophrenia could be wrong and it is possible to have it in childhood, just that they haven't recognised it yet* and have potentially (if this were true) also misdiagnosed schizophrenia as AS. That way your experience would also make sense.

*the reason for that could be because it has always been misdiagnosed as AS, and in those people it was always schizophrenia.

Just my speculation. I guess when science has evolved enough that they can categorically pinpoint the gene(s) responsible for both conditions, they can say for sure.


When schizophrenia begin to be studied (in the first years of the last century), many articles written about that said that the people who, later, developed schizophrenia were, as children, usually solitary, shy, daydreaming, with "unusual" intellectual interests, etc. This is, more or less, what today is considered the profile of Asperger's Syndrome and PDD/NOS.

Probably, today, a future schizophrenic (or someone with mild schizophrenic traits) will be dignosed with an ASD if, in childhood, his parents take him to a doctor.

Specially in PDD/NOS seems to be a very high rate of people diagnosed with PDD/NOS as children who end up developing schizophrenia or other psychotic condition as adults. My theory is that many of these "cases" of "PDD/NOS" were, in reality, cases of schizoid personality disorder who were misdiagnosed (because the diagnost criteria for PDD/NOS and from spd are very similar).



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26 Aug 2012, 6:50 pm

Has anyone ever heard of Multiple Complex Developmental Disorder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_c ... l_disorder

It seems to combine psychotic symptoms with neurotic behavior, autistic symptoms and neurological symptoms. Seems like it could be related.



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26 Aug 2012, 7:58 pm

LabPet wrote:
Sincerely autism/AS and schizophrenia are incongruent conditions and the diagnosis of one rules out the other. This is well established and with conclusive clear evidence. I guess I am perplexed as to why AS and schizophrenia would be even considered together; these are in fact opposite conditions. Diagnostic errors occur, which would be the case here. Sigh.


That's interesting.

I'm somewhat familiar with it via close relatives.

I've seen the idea posted that there is a dysfunctional/semifunctional premorbid state of schizophrenia before the onset, and I guess this is why these are considered to be mutually exlcusive? But, is it impossible to acquire the florrid full blown disease for someone on the autistic spectrum? Typically the onset happens in early adulthood.

From my understanding there is an overshoot in dopamine production and a secondary problem of spillover, as docking into the serotonin receptors.



TheSunAlsoRises
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26 Aug 2012, 8:04 pm

lady_katie wrote:
Has anyone ever heard of Multiple Complex Developmental Disorder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_c ... l_disorder

It seems to combine psychotic symptoms with neurotic behavior, autistic symptoms and neurological symptoms. Seems like it could be related.


Yep. I read about it on the Yale website a while ago.

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26 Aug 2012, 10:24 pm

Autism and schizophrenia CAN exist with each other. Even in the DSM IV. According to page 312 of the DSM IV TR it states for schizophrenia, basically that if you have autism that the additional diagnosis of schizophrenia is only made if there is delusions and hallucinations also present for at least a month. So yes, you can be diagnosed with both. There are several people on here that have both including myself. I also know someone personally that has both. Actually schizoaffective. That might be more common than schizophrenia itself in ASDs.



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27 Aug 2012, 3:41 am

Other way of seeing the problem:

Schizophrenia = social isolation + halucinations/delusions

Autism = social isolation + restricted interests/rigid rotines

At least half of the problem is largely similar, and I suspect that the other half can be easily mistaken (after all, in some sense an halucination or a delusion is also a kind of "special interest").

And specialy the mild cases could be very ambiguos - imagine someone who spends most of his time in a fantasy world (knowing that it is a fantasy world); this could be considered a kind of sub-clinical/pre-morbid psychosis (it is not a psychosis because the person know that it is a fantasy, but could be argued that these kind of people is more prone to, in some cases, lose the distinction between fantasy and reality); or could be considered a "special interest". Or someone who has "a theory" about the world and try to explain everything according to his "theory"; this could be considered as very similar to a delusion, or a pre-morbid kind of delusion; or that "theory" could be considered a "special interest".

Generalizing, I suppose that a "pure" schizophrenic and an autistic with concrete "special interests" (for example, models of door knobs) will easily to distinguish; but I suspect that someone in the border between schizophrenia and "normalcy" and an autistic with more abstract/theoretical "special interests" could be very similar [probably everybody who is an Introvert Intuitive in MBTI could be seen by someone as having autistic tendencies and by other as having schizophrenic tendencies].



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27 Aug 2012, 6:42 am

The entire world population is deluded..... up to a point.

Does that mean everyone has schizophrenia?

My psychologist is deluded



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27 Aug 2012, 6:47 am

It's actually very common for aspies to have schizofrenic "episodes" when exhausted or overwhelmed. Last night I was sure there were spiders crawling on my arms and I don't have schizofrenia.



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27 Aug 2012, 7:04 am

No, the person that I know that I believe has some form of schizophrenia in addition to AS really does delude themselves on quite a large scale. For example, one time I looked up into the sky and stated that the clouds looked like angels. This person than took that to mean that I literally saw angels (she believed that I had seen some kind of a spiritual vision), despite the fact that I reassured her that I was only looking at clouds that were sort of shaped like angels. A short time later 9/11 happened, and this person than went on to believe not only that I literally saw angels in the sky, but that it was connected to 9/11 coming. She deluded herself into believing this, despite the fact that I assured her that it was not my experience at all. This person does this constantly.

As far as hallucinations go, I'm not schizophrenic that I know of, but I have hallucinated on a couple of occasions. One time I saw my fathers head "hanging" on my dresser drawer knob. It was so real that I felt like I could reach out and touch it. Than it disappeared. Obviously it wasn't really there, being that my father still has his head. This happened when I was about 9 years old.

Anyway...my point is that it's pretty difficult to mistake delusions and hallucinations for "special interests" unless you are actually seeing your special interest floating around the room, it's talking to you, or it's seriously altering your understanding of reality (if you like bugs, you could believe that bugs are seriously taking over the world and start building an underground shelter, etc.) I will go on to say, however, this person that I know seems to have developed a special interest in some form of mysticism, which I believe is connected to her schizophrenic episodes. They have even developed a small following of people who believe that her delusions are true...and I fear that they may unknowingly be starting a cult.



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27 Aug 2012, 7:38 am

I have worse than average full blown psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia or I believe Schizoaffective
I also have tested on the worse end of the scale Asperger's

I have spent 9 months psychotic twice in the space of 3 years - most of this in hospital including a 9 month stay
As well as this I have been sectioned shorter term 6 other times
My psychosis has been extreme
I have believed I was swapping bits of my soul with others - soul exchange
Been asked if I would be the mother of the second coming of Christ
Had sexual tactiles in the most graphic sense with others colourful sex daemons that we shot out of our feet
Have believed I was dying (all these things were For Months) with cancer splitting off my oesophagus and a high fever I thought needed to be bought down - all winter dousing my clothes and taking 3 long cold showers a day, to the point of mild or moderate hypothermia because of lowering my body temperature
I also believed I had a cloud dog as an animal familiar spirit that got rid of cancer demons at night from when I smoked
I absconded, wanting to be homeless
I acted out on violent command delusions / instructions
...
Some examples of my delusions while Unwell with schizophrenia
Not related to Asperger's


My Aspie traits - well some obvious examples:
Arm flapping
Head banging
Clapping
Gyrating
Taking sarcasm or humour literally
I interrupt have an odd way of dressing and relate to the androgyny thing
I panic about eating at set times
Am extremely one sided in conversations when talking about running or studying
This one will bore and frustrate people which I don't pick up on
I played alone as a child I loved strings of numbers and a teacher gave me a playtime maths book
I have big social probs when I worked full time for 6 months I was incredulous when colleagues talked to each other during a 3 minute interval when there was work to be done
I have been mute long term and have the symptom of selective mutism with people I don't like
I have A very peculiar voice characteristic
I stimmed as a coping mechanism as a child
I had avoideant attachment as an infant - not huggy
I have always been extremely clumsy
There is more
I am married to an Aspie ( not part of the diagnostic criteria)



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27 Aug 2012, 8:05 am

My boyfriend has autism and Schizoaffective Disorder. He handles both very well. He has come a long, long way and battled many demons to get to this point, but he's better than ever now. I know it all seems frightening and disorienting right now but this disorder doesn't have to rule your life and future.


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27 Aug 2012, 8:40 am

Quote:
No, the person that I know that I believe has some form of schizophrenia in addition to AS really does delude themselves on quite a large scale. For example, one time I looked up into the sky and stated that the clouds looked like angels. This person than took that to mean that I literally saw angels (she believed that I had seen some kind of a spiritual vision), despite the fact that I reassured her that I was only looking at clouds that were sort of shaped like angels. A short time later 9/11 happened, and this person than went on to believe not only that I literally saw angels in the sky, but that it was connected to 9/11 coming. She deluded herself into believing this, despite the fact that I assured her that it was not my experience at all. This person does this constantly.


But could this not be an extreme form of the taking things literally and misunderstanding what people mean, in AS?

Quote:
As far as hallucinations go, I'm not schizophrenic that I know of, but I have hallucinated on a couple of occasions. One time I saw my fathers head "hanging" on my dresser drawer knob. It was so real that I felt like I could reach out and touch it. Than it disappeared. Obviously it wasn't really there, being that my father still has his head. This happened when I was about 9 years old.


Having AS doesn't mean you can't have an ultra vivid imagination. Children generally have even more vivid imaginations than adults as well.

Quote:
Anyway...my point is that it's pretty difficult to mistake delusions and hallucinations for "special interests" unless you are actually seeing your special interest floating around the room, it's talking to you, or it's seriously altering your understanding of reality (if you like bugs, you could believe that bugs are seriously taking over the world and start building an underground shelter, etc.) I will go on to say, however, this person that I know seems to have developed a special interest in some form of mysticism, which I believe is connected to her schizophrenic episodes. They have even developed a small following of people who believe that her delusions are true...and I fear that they may unknowingly be starting a cult.


There are many people without disorders who are deluded or vulnerable enough to join cults, otherwise cults wouldn't exist.

I have a huge interest in supernatural, psychic, conspiracy theories etc. but I am absolutely not schizophrenic, I am still very much based in reality and with a firm understanding of what reality is. People with AS can be incredibly niaive (myself included), gullible and taken in by things so could potentially believe things that others might ridicule. For instance, I recently read on a fascinating and intelligent sounding website that there are humans living inside the moon, that were sent there as a government experiment and that there is a whole artificial system supporting them inside the moon (look up "hollow moon"). Now I know this sounds ludicrous, but as I do believe governments hide things from the general population (look up the "Aurora" top secret craft [a theory with some compelling evidence] and artificial clouds [which are a fact] and the damages to humans), I have to consider that it could therefore be a possibility. Does that make me schizophrenic? I do believe that an autistic special interest, which can be anything at all, is all about the extreme level of interest regardless of the object or subject of interest. Extreme level of interest could in theory, be taken to such an extreme such as you mention.

People with autism can also have auditory perception alterations and hyperacusis (http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/New%20- ... Voices.htm), although not that many people are aware of this. This could be interpreted by the professionals as hearing voices and get them labelled as schizophrenic. This is not to mention that an autistic, asked whether they 'hear voices', can answer a simple "yes", because they do hear voices when others are talking, but they don't mean inside their head.


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