Weight lifting and diet, possible disordered eating.

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1000Knives
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29 Aug 2012, 12:28 am

Basically I've come to a conundrum in weightlifting and diet. "Eating clean" seems to not help jack s**t as far as strength gains, and how I feel while lifting/after lifting, and my recovery. I mean, it does in some sense, like I know I feel better with a lot of vegetables in the diet, but today here's an example. I didn't eat much if anything all of today, I woke up at like 1. Around 6PM, my family went to Burger King.

At Burger King, I had:
1 Whopper
1 Whopper junior, no cheese
1 BK Bacon Burger
1 medium fry
3 chicken nuggets (split between my family)
2 32oz sodas.
Supposedly according to Burger King's website, without the chicken nuggets, my meal totals 2480 calories. Yep. For me, that was eating until I was genuinely "full" which I know probably sounds nuts, but yeah.

That sounds like the most ret*d unhealthy meal ever, right? I guess so. But today I went lifting, and I've been fighting an infection for the past few weeks (Which I think I've managed to resolve reasonably well with some Chinese medicine I've been taking) and today I felt awesome. I didn't beat any maxes (also didn't try), but what's normally a hard weight for me on the standing overhead press (105lbs, I know, crappy) felt WAY easier. I went to the gym about an hour after eating all this. I hadn't like, "felt" this good lifting in ages. Another time I had a similar experience. It was Christmas Eve, and my family ordered Dominos Pizza. I had eaten probably over a whole medium pizza worth of pizza, if not a large pizza, and also I had about 3-4 fairly big glasses of Pepsi. I then went to the gym and set a PR for the clean and jerk.

So obviously, we know fast food isn't particularly good for us due to the preservatives and all that fun stuff, but I'm wondering if I should be intaking fast food levels of calories, and fat and cholesterol. I don't know really. Going with the "broscience" of powerlifting, many of the top people eat seemingly retardedly. Look up Mariusz Pudzianowski's diet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Pu ... ngman_diet Louie Simmons supposedly would eat like 12 McDonalds dollar burgers before lifting. http://crossfitbattlefield.com/wp-conte ... -louie.jpg But Louie Simmons also looks like that. I don't wanna look like that. That's the conundrum.

I don't know really. When I eat a lot of food like this, I have tons of energy. I feel like I could go run miles. I've been trying to like, cut down my food intake, and eat "cleaner" and I have no energy really. I mean, vegetables do help, but it seems the "stupid" foods like burgers and pizza give me the most energy, then couple it with raw veggies and fruit, maybe a multivitamin, and some herbs, and then I'll have a diet that'd give me a ton of energy.

But yeah, I do seem to like, eat a lot of food. It seems genetic. My dad for example, my mom says at like, a Christmas party by my uncle, he was able to eat like a portion of food they cooked for 4-5 people by himself. That seems about how I eat. Whenever I'm in church, and there's coffee hour, people always get like a tiny plate of stuff, and I'll eat like 3-4 plates filled to the brim with food. I seemingly do have a giant appetite. Generally when I go to eat fast food, I will order about the amount of food I said above if I have the choice too, and it is what it takes for me to feel full. Now that I'm more athletic, my amount of food I eat is through the roof, but even before athletics, I'd always eat enough for people to give me dirty looks and go "wtf." Back before athletic things I was heavier, and I did lose weight on a restricted diet that was sorta close to paleo, but then I also cheated and would have lots of energy drinks and the like (sugared ones no less) and the energy drinks would make me burn fat (caffeine has a unique effect of making your body draw from fat for energy during exercise.) So I did in essence kinda cheat the weight off, I went from 215 to 180. Regarding my father, too, he's always been heavier, he weightlifted like me, and he did his lifts at 218 bodyweight, and same height as me (maybe an inch taller) and as far as my performance goes, considering I've been lifting for a year, I'm fairly close to him in lifting performance, considering the amount of time trained (he set his maxes after probably 5-10 years at the very least lifting, in 1989.) My mom said my dad was always bigger, and I'm skinnier than he probably ever was, but I probably have a higher appetite than he did, too.

I really like weightlifting for the added performance it gives me, I can run way faster now, lift up heavier things, it's awesome. But honestly, I don't really like gaining muscle. It's quite weird. Like I always wished I could be 130lbs and super skinny and lean. Meanwhile I see forums with names like "wannabebig" and I'm like "well...why?" I've gone up to 195lbs (actually about 200 during winter, but I pretty much stabilized at 195) and I don't think I've gained really any actual fat weight from it, but I wish I could be like...skinnier. Also, my main athletic activity I like more than lifting is figure skating, and figure skating doesn't really encourage "big" men, fat or "jacked." Weirdly, though, I know 2 figure skaters that are fairly high level, and skate hours per day (no idea of their off ice regimen, though) and I see them eating McDonalds almost daily. One is a guy, who is shorter, but fairly skinny, but not like rails skinny, but no belly, one is a girl, who honestly does pack a tiny bit extra bodyfat, but certainly doesn't look bad (she recently cut down a bit, though.)

I guess in some ways, it's more cultural, too, the obsession with abs and low bodyfat is relatively recent. My bodyfat level is about 18-20%, I was measured at 20% at 200lbs (my home scale was 200lbs, bodyfat measuring scale was 195) and I'm down to 195lbs and have more muscle mass, so it'd be reasonable to assume lower than 20%. But people even in the 80s compared Anatoly Pisarenko to Arnold Swarznegger, and he didn't have visible abs. http://preview.photoxpress.ru/preview/p ... 435316.jpg He was a superheavyweight Olympic lifter, weighed 260something. Most people would say he looks fine. He wasn't a bodybuilder, but at the same time he didn't balloon past 300lbs like most superheavies do ala Serge Redding, http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224 ... eding8.jpg and Vasily Alexeev http://www.getmightynow.com/images/stor ... -cover.jpg. But back to bodyfat, though, 20% according to some scales is healthy for a man (up to 22% is.) But according to others, 15-16% is, maybe it's just my Aspie nitpicking/OCD there, being potentially 1-2% over "healthy" levels defined by some group somewhere.

I guess in some ways, it's the classic problem I have. The disconnect between my feelings and my perceived logic. My feelings say "Eat everything and everything will be great!" but that's a hard feeling to trust. And I've tried all kinds of restrictive diets to pretty much no avail. They all result in no energy, and decreased performance not just in athletics, but everywhere in life. Logically, though, I should be able to go and get X performance out of X foods, calories, nutrient levels, but it doesn't work. But then burgers and pizza does? Wha? What an illogical conclusion. But I don't know if I should just eat... whatever, within reason (ie, not lots of processed food) and just eat until I'm full. But it's so weird, as per like, amount of food I eat, nobody would think I'm not eating enough. Quite the opposite.

Donny Shankle, an Olympic lifter, has this to say about food, it's interesting.
http://donnyshankle.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... ew_08.html

Quote:
Nine out of ten weightlifters will insist that they are eating enough when in fact upon closer inspection of a food journal, they are eating about as much as a Muslim during the sun-lit hours of Ramadan.

I have observed only two reasons as to why weightlifters neglect this part of training aside from just being lazy. The first is narcissistic in nature by way of being sexually appealing, and the other is financial. Considering weightlifting used to be combined with physique competitions many years ago the first should come as no surprise.

Donny Shankle doesn't look bad, really. http://gym.cathletics.com/blog/images/1 ... hankle.jpg

Vasily Alexeev said this, too. But Vasily Alexeev, looks...yeah... Was strong as all hell, though.
Quote:
Young athletes should not inhibit the growth of their bodyweight. They should be more courageous about entering their proper weight class ...


I don't know, I'm not really expecting answers in this thread. I bet to most females this seems pretty first world problem-ish. "Oh no, I have an eating disorder because I only eat like 3000 calories a day!" It sounds sorta idiotic. I mean I thought "eating disorder, f**k no I don't have one of those" but it seems I sorta do. I guess this is a sorta personal post, and it's rambly and long as all hell, I don't know what people's feedback would be. Again, I plan to eat, you know, healthily as I reasonably can, but I guess I just gotta eat like...what I feel like, and whatever happens...happens.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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29 Aug 2012, 12:30 am

Whenever I am working out I always have more energy and endurance after I eat a lot of vegetables. Any kind of junk food makes my body ache faster and I want to quit sooner.



1000Knives
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29 Aug 2012, 12:42 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Whenever I am working out I always have more energy and endurance after I eat a lot of vegetables. Any kind of junk food makes my body ache faster and I want to quit sooner.


Well veggies certainly make me feel nice. But, our exercise and activity level is different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5yifpd3RBQ I'm guessing you do not attempt doing that very often (though I do it with like 1/4 of that weight.) Or figure skating (supposedly it burns 700 calories an hour at my bodyweight, I skate when I'm feeling good an hour and 20 minutes a day.)



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29 Aug 2012, 12:53 am

I have ice skated but such places are costly where I live, so I do the cheapest thing possible. I could go roller blading instead but my feet are wider than average and I have an extremely difficult time finding shoes that fit. I have to order them online. Haven't looked into wide width roller blades but something tells me they aren't easy to acquire. I tend to avoid anything requiring specialized footwear because of my wide feet. Last time I ice skated my feet started hurting because they were in B width and I need an EE so I haven't been since because if I go up to a size nine, which would make the ice skate wide enough, it's too big to use for skating because I wobble everywhere. My feet are a size 7. I tried that at a free skate sponsored by a local hockey team. I wobbled everywhere and couldn't even skate. I gave up after that. I don't count that as an actual ice skating event because I never really skated, just clung to the size while my ankles wobbled because the ice skates were way too long.

I have five pound hand weights so there's no bench pressing or anything like that.

I do have a pair of D width running shoes. I like to swim because I can do that barefoot. It has been suggested I look for men's shoes, so I could try that with the roller blades but they would be heavier than the ones made for women.



1000Knives
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29 Aug 2012, 1:32 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I have ice skated but such places are costly where I live, so I do the cheapest thing possible. I could go roller blading instead but my feet are wider than average and I have an extremely difficult time finding shoes that fit. I have to order them online. Haven't looked into wide width roller blades but something tells me they aren't easy to acquire. I tend to avoid anything requiring specialized footwear because of my wide feet. Last time I ice skated my feet started hurting because they were in B width and I need an EE so I haven't been since because if I go up to a size nine, which would make the ice skate wide enough, it's too big to use for skating because I wobble everywhere. My feet are a size 7. I tried that at a free skate sponsored by a local hockey team. I wobbled everywhere and couldn't even skate. I gave up after that. I don't count that as an actual ice skating event because I never really skated, just clung to the size while my ankles wobbled because the ice skates were way too long.

I have five pound hand weights so there's no bench pressing or anything like that.

I do have a pair of D width running shoes. I like to swim because I can do that barefoot. It has been suggested I look for men's shoes, so I could try that with the roller blades but they would be heavier than the ones made for women.


Oh, well, a lot of people's problem in skating is finding skates that fit. They're sized differently than shoes for the most part, with few exceptions. For hockey skates, I wear a size 7 skate, then I wear about 10 in most shoe brands. Figure skates run more true to size. You can custom order skates from the manufacturer in whatever width, but it'd probably cost a tad more, I don't remember it being exponentially more, though. I've even seen one girl skating who had a short leg, and had custom boots with one sole an inch higher. Ice skating is sorta a rich man's sport, thankfully my rink is dirt cheap.

One other option you got, hockey skates generally run wider anyway, but you can make them wider by heating them up. You can either put them in an oven, like most shops do, but a shop owner once told me he gets good results with a heat gun, heat up the spots, stretch it to your feet. Hockey skates could be worth a try. I don't doubt your large feet, but most people with normal size feet suck at putting on and getting the right size skates. For ice skates, you pretty much gotta unlace them to be VERY loose. Like so you can pull the tongue out like 4 inches or so to put your foot in. Your big toe should hit the end, but not be painful, that's how your skates are sized correctly.

For roller blades, I hate the plastic boots with ratchet straps and liner inside. Hate hate hate. Just feels so odd. I wear an ice hockey boot with an inline frame on it and like that much better (though I wish I had a heel brake.)

And 5lb handweights... well... I can give a whole essay on lifting theory, but basically, the amount of "pump" muscles have is almost irrelevant in producing muscle mass. The reason lifting heavy weights in full body compound movements produces muscle mass and strength is because the body must produce hormones to adapt, and then the hormones throw the muscle mass on. In my case, my hormones are saying "eat everything!"



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29 Aug 2012, 1:47 am

My feet are not large, just wide. Size 7 isn't really a large size but no way can I fit into a B width and that's the most common in stores. I only wear size nine when I have to wear a B width but they don't fit that great. Size 9 is too long. Now, I just get shoes online. I can find some wide ones there. I can also just wear men's though I haven't tried that option yet. First I have to find some I like. I might be able to wear a size 5 in men's skates without much difficulty. If I got skates, they would be roller blading anyway since that's the easiest way to skate where I live.



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29 Aug 2012, 3:53 am

I'm not able to comment much without knowing exactly what you eat and in what portions when you are "eating clean" but there are at least five possibilities to your experience.

1. You are not eating enough carbs when you are eating clean.
If one does not consume enough carbohydrates then one might experience energy and fatigue issues.

2. Your "clean" diet left you iron deficient.

3. You were not eating enough calories when you were eating "clean".

4. You had plateaud and needed a rest day.

5. All of the above.



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29 Aug 2012, 5:29 am

Your meal doesn't sound that bad, if it was a cheat day or just some occasional thing, and you are maintaining your athleticism, and plenty of people eat eat and eat s**t, but they burn a bunch of it off, and everything is okay. I do question one thing though, since you have been fighting an infection, and are getting better now, do you think that had something to do with how good you felt lifting since you've been feeling bad for awhile? Also, maybe since you ate a big meal that tastes great and has many calories, that helped your workouts. Great tasting food can give you that mental edge, just enough to have a good workout and you did eat a lot of it as well. That "ahhh..." feeling I get eating that food can be really encouraging.

I'm pretty sure these powerlifter/strongman guys you listed are long time steroid users. I think I've even seen Louie Simmons in the "Bigger Stronger Faster" documentary admitting to using them for over 30 years. That's something to take into consideration. You often need to consume more than a normal person working out when you use steroids, for a variety of reasons. Anyways, a bunch of bodybuilders/powerlifters/strongmen ect have awful diets, but they still have good lifts. You don't need to have a great healthy diet to lift big. Lifting big doesn't mean you are healthy. I doubt those guys can run that long without turning purple.

Maybe you just need to find good clean foods that you really enjoy, kinds that give you a lot of mental/emotional pleasure, as well as physical pleasure. I suppose eating a fast food meal every day or two won't hurt if you are working hard and eating well the rest of the day. Aside from that fast food being very low quality, and treated with a bunch of nasty chemicals, it's not terrible if you don't gorge yourself.

It took me awhile to find the right clean food/diet for me. I eat for the most part very clean now and I feel great. I don't follow any trend diets. Dry chicken breasts, lowfat milk, peanut butter, corn, and other typical boring stuff didn't cut it for me, I found myself unhappy due to the dullness of flavor, and that unfulfiled feeling in the stomache so I had less energy as a result. Is that an eating disorder, I don't know. Maybe it is, like a food addiction, or typical clean foods/diets are just boring and unfulfilling to some people. You also mention taking a multi-vitamin once in awhile, mot of them should be taken every day to really benefit from them.


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Last edited by Pondering on 29 Aug 2012, 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Big_cheese
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29 Aug 2012, 5:38 am

Man, you made me hungry.



1000Knives
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29 Aug 2012, 10:32 am

Pondering wrote:
Your meal doesn't sound that bad, if it was a cheat day or just some occasional thing, and you are maintaining your athleticism, and plenty of people eat eat and eat sh**, but they burn a bunch of it off, and everything is okay. I do question one thing though, since you have been fighting an infection, and are getting better now, do you think that had something to do with how good you felt lifting since you've been feeling bad for awhile? Also, maybe since you ate a big meal that tastes great and has many calories, that helped your workouts. Great tasting food can give you that mental edge, just enough to have a good workout and you did eat a lot of it as well. That "ahhh..." feeling I get eating that food can be really encouraging.

I'm pretty sure these powerlifter/strongman guys you listed are long time steroid users. I think I've even seen Louie Simmons in the "Bigger Stronger Faster" documentary admitting to using them for over 30 years. That's something to take into consideration. You often need to consume more than a normal person working out when you use steroids, for a variety of reasons. Anyways, a bunch of bodybuilders/powerlifters/strongmen ect have awful diets, but they still have good lifts. You don't need to have a great healthy diet to lift big. Lifting big doesn't mean you are healthy. I doubt those guys can run that long without turning purple.

Maybe you just need to find good clean foods that you really enjoy, kinds that give you a lot of mental/emotional pleasure, as well as physical pleasure. I suppose eating a fast food meal every day or two won't hurt if you are working hard and eating well the rest of the day. Aside from that fast food being very low quality, and treated with a bunch of nasty chemicals, it's not terrible if you don't gorge yourself.

It took me awhile to find the right clean food/diet for me. I eat for the most part very clean now and I feel great. I don't follow any trend diets. Dry chicken breasts, lowfat milk, peanut butter, corn, and other typical boring stuff didn't cut it for me, I found myself unhappy due to the dullness of flavor, and that unfulfiled feeling in the stomache so I had less energy as a result. Is that an eating disorder, I don't know. Maybe it is, like a food addiction, or typical clean foods/diets are just boring and unfulfilling to some people. You also mention taking a multi-vitamin once in awhile, mot of them should be taken every day to really benefit from them.


Well, I consume more than a normal person when sitting around doing nothing. As for the infection, yesterday was the first like "good day" since the infection, but as I said, with the entire pizza, I managed to set a PR like that before.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byfc6SBqM-w[/youtube]
Like honestly, if I was unrestrained, I'd totally have the capability to eat like that everyday.



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29 Aug 2012, 12:06 pm

Honestly, I think red meat protein is the best for gaining bulk and strength, as long as it's in a SUITABLE AMOUNT and QUALITY. No offense, but the Burger King items are mainly fat calories, whereas a good quality piece of beef with the fat trimmed, is what I'd go for. If that's not a good option, then whey protein and eggs are always good for low fat high calorie meals.

Charles



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29 Aug 2012, 12:29 pm

I don't see how you can eat all those carbs without crashing. That would put me to sleep in thirty minutes if I ate a meal like that!

1000 Knives, have you ever thought about going to an all-you-can-eat- buffet, paying one price, staying for five hours and getting your daily calories that way? It might be more economical in the long run.



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29 Aug 2012, 1:28 pm

I'm wondering if slightly my appetite change is triggered by the Chinese medicine I'm taking, too. I'm taking:
Long Dan Xei Gan pills
Cassia tea
Eucommia Bark tea.

Long Dan Xei Gan and Cassia both are supposed to help clear toxins out of the liver, so I've felt awesome from those, but the Eucommia is for like, athletes, my tea is labelled "Strong back tea." Who knows.



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29 Aug 2012, 1:44 pm

I love tea also! Whenever I am feeling out of sorts I drink my chai tea and it has this fabulous tonic effect.



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01 Sep 2012, 1:39 am

So it's likely it was triggered by the Chinese medicine, specifically the Eucommia bark, it basically acts like an SARM (selective androgen receptor) and boosts the effects of the testosterone in your body. Now that I'm used to the Eucommia, I'm no longer going quite as crazy as far as appetite goes, but I think it wanted an initial like, boost of calories or whatever.

And also I'm sorta glad I may have figured out an herbal tea that pretty much works like steroids. :twisted: A good mix for it seems to be a little Siberian ginseng/ginkgo green tea. Yay herbal stuff.



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01 Sep 2012, 7:18 am

You should read the book about carb backloading by Kiefer. "Clean eating" is just not as conducive to gaining lean mass as dirty bulking. Once you get to a certain level, clean bulking makes sense if you want to just add muscle at a slower pace while keeping your beach body. However, for maximum effect, just eat whatever you can find regardless of its contents so long as you get enough protein.