Slavery as a Christian Value
Details. Paul returned a slave to his master. Whether that slave went willingly or in chains is irrelevant. The point is that Paul did not denounce the institution of slavery, nor did Jesus Himself! In fact, both Jesus and Mosaic Law established rules for the treatment of slaves, as well.
Paul wrote in Ephesians 6:5-8, KJV:
Luke wrote (quoting Jesus) in Luke 12:47-48, KJV:
The following quotes are from Exodus 21:2-7.
Note that the 7th-year 'Jubilee' parole shall be given to a Hebrew slave. All others had to wait for the 50th-year 'Jubilee'.
Regardless of who fathered the children of a slave, the master owns them.
Thus, giving a slave a wife and letting them have children gives the master the advantage to use the slave's family as hostages for the slave's continued service.
Yes, it really is Biblically correct for a man to sell his daughters into slavery.
Thus, throughout the Bible, not only is approval for slavery given, but the 'proper' treatment of slaves is laid out.
For the record, I voted 'NO' in the attached poll, as I believe that slavery is an atrocity no matter which religion says otherwise.
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Disagree, it will benefit your Federal Reserve Bank. They make money on public dept. I was wondering how much a 90k geek is worth nowadays. If a gigolo has many children on welfare his real term wealth could be more then 90k. If he runs his household(s) efficiently and on a budget.,he could earn an income on each additional child. The gigolo gets the money, and the mother(s) gets to know that her offspring will have good life as they more likely to tern out to be a gigolo.
Yes, I have; the entire Bible, in fact. Several times, from the Hebrew and the Greek. You?
Then why did you select that bit when it does not make the point you're trying to make?
You think this and you claim to have read the whole Bible? Leaving aside the silly "Paul's example is Law" thing, where did the idea that Paul's words are law come from?
Is following Mosaic Law something Paul considers a requirement? Hint: the correct answer is no.
How is this in any way an endorsement?
Intent counts for nothing. The Truth is in the act.
Sending a letter like that is an act. Do you think it produced no change in the behavior of the recipient?
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"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
Disagree, it will benefit your Federal Reserve Bank. They make money on public dept. I was wondering how much a 90k geek is worth nowadays. If a gigolo has many children on welfare his real term wealth could be more then 90k. If he runs his household(s) efficiently and on a budget.,he could earn an income on each additional child. The gigolo gets the money, and the mother(s) gets to know that her offspring will have good life as they more likely to tern out to be a gigolo.
Not sure I quite understood you right, but what you described is mostly correct. In this case, the "gigolos" are mostly from Christian backgrounds, and slave owners in their own right. When they show up at Walmart with five different foodstamp cards (belonging to the "hoes") and $800 in cash driving a $80k SUV, I hold absolutely NO faith in the legal system. So then you're left with this system that enslaves people who make money under conventional employment and then promotes the slavery of women under men who are allowed to conduct this business through legal channels.
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AQ: 42
aspie-quiz: 151 / 47
I can't remember where, but I do remember Paul saying that if a slave has the chance to be set free, he should take it, saying "be ye not the servants of men." He also warns people to be kind to their servants and remember that they have a master in heaven who doesn't regard personal position: that is to say, there are no masters or slaves in God's eyes, only jerks who whip people, and God will judge a slavemaster who whips a slave the same way he judges someone who whips someone free.
Jesus's mentions of servants in his parables are metaphors. He is not only not endorsing slavery, he isn't even talking about it. That should be obvious to anyone who isn't just trying to seek an occasion against a belief that they have some bigoted grudge against.
1CO 7:20-24
He is saying that whatever situation a person is in (slave or free) when called to serve Christ, they should remain in that situation. He is also encouraging slave to gain their freedom, if they can. Further, hinting at a suggestion that Philiemon could free Onesimus is not a call to abolish slavery.
Nowhere in the Bible do Jesus, the apostles, or any of the prophets even suggest that slavery should be abolished.
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Christian value.
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Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Christian value.
No it isn't. You are jumping to conclusions. Jesus never specifically says a lot of things are wrong, but using the moral guidance and values of his teaching we can draw the conclusion that they are.
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Christian value.
Nowhere in this thread has Fnord said that slavery should be abolished.
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Fnord value.
Do you see the error in your argument yet?
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"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Christian value.
Nowhere in this thread has Fnord said that slavery should be abolished.
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Fnord value.
Do you see the error in your argument yet?
Although I think he did say he disapproved of slavery somewhere in this thread (too lazy to find it) but your point as to why his argument model is fallacious remains valid.
If you criticize Christianity, I'll assume you are not a Christian. In this case, I'll give you some good advice: Let the silly interpret their own book as they will. You don't have to fight them on their own ground. You don't have to use their wrong method to find out that they are wrong. Be more critical.
My problem with interpretation is that it's all based on opinion, which is why there is so many denominations, I take the bible as either 100% true or 100% false, there is NO in between for holy books, and I have read it and reject it on the grounds that this supposed "Good God" is the most vile, evil, despicable being in all of existence.
Richard Dawkins said it best when he said
Unpleasant un·pleas·ant/ˌənˈplezənt/Adjective 1. Causing discomfort, unhappiness, or revulsion; disagreeable
2 Chronicles 15:13 Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Fiction fic·tion [fik-shuhn] –noun 1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form
The Brick Testament I challenge anyone to look at this and not pish themselves laughing, pay attention to the detail.
Jealous jeal·ous [jel-uhs]
–adjective 1. feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages
Exodus 20:1-3, 23:13, 22:20 Then Yahweh spoke all these words. He said, 'I am Yahweh your God. You shall have no other gods before me. Do not mention the name of any other god -- let none ever be heard from your lips. Anyone who sacrifices to other gods must be destroyed.'
Proud proud [proud] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, adverb –adjective 1. feeling pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to oneself 2. having, proceeding from, or showing a high opinion of one's own dignity, importance, or superiority.
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
Petty (ˈpɛtɪ)
— adj
1. of a narrow-minded, mean, or small-natured disposition or character: petty spite
Leviticus 21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous.
Zephaniah 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Unjust (ʌnˈdʒʌst)
— adj 1. not in accordance with accepted standards of fairness or justice; unfair
[The book of Job][2], oh, and Moses was allowed to marry an interloper, but others had to be put to death for the same.
Unforgiving un·for·giv·ing [uhn-fer-giv-ing] Show IPA –adjective 1. not disposed to forgive or show mercy; unrelenting.
Ezekiel 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
4:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
[The Unforgiving God][3], for an expert's opinion.
Control-freak is a derogatory term for a person who attempts to dictate how everything around them is done.
[The Bible][4] which looks like [this][5].
Vindictive vin·dic·tive [vin-dik-tiv]
–adjective 1. disposed or inclined to revenge; vengeful
Romans 12:19 Don't seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord.
bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser
1 Samuel 15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Misogynyistic mi·sog·y·ny [mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-]
–noun hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. adj misogy'nistic
Exodus 20:17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."
Exodus 21:2-4 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing....If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."
Homophobic ho·mo·pho·bi·a [hoh-muh-foh-bee-uh]
–noun unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality. adj. homophobic
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Racist rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] –noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. adj. racist
Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.
Infanticidal in·fan·ti·cide [in-fan-tuh-sahyd]
–noun 1. the act of killing an infant. 2. the practice of killing newborn infants. 3. a person who kills an infant. Adj. infanticial
Take yer pick me aul china....
The Bible contains many references to infanticide. In idol worship, people (including Israel and Judah) sacrificed their own children (1 Kings 11:7; 2 Kings 16:3; 17:17; Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35; 33:6; Ezek. 16:20-21). In war (even in holy war), entire cities/nations of people were sometimes killed (Num. 21:35; 31:17; 1 Sam. 15:3; 2 Sam. 22:19), including infants. Also, in Jeremiah 19:9 we read that God threatened to afflict his people so greatly that they would eat their own children, and in Lamentations 4:10 we have an indication that this may actually have come to pass. Then of course we have the famous stories of kings who kill infants in order to control threats to their kingdom (Exod. 1:22; Matt. 2:16; Acts 7:19). God himself killed all the firstborn of Egypt at one time, among which were certainly many children (Exod. 12:29), not to mention the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19), or the much more terrible flood of Noah's day (Gen. 6-9).
Genocidal gen·o·cide [jen-uh-sahyd]
–noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
[Noah's Flood?][6] and just for good measure [Violence in the Bible][7]
Filicidal fil·i·cide [fil-uh-sahyd] Show IPA –noun 1. a person who kills his or her son or daughter.
ALL DEATH IN THE BIBLE, how's that for shouting? Because we are all God's children....boke!
Pestilential pes·ti·len·tial [pes-tl-en-shuhl] Show IPA –adjective 1. producing or tending to produce pestilence.
Exodus 10:13-14 Yahweh sent an east wind which blew all that day and night. By morning the east wind had brought the locusts.
Megalomaniacal megalomania (ˌmɛɡələʊˈmeɪnɪə)
— n 1. a mental illness characterized by delusions of grandeur, power, wealth, etc 2. informal a lust or craving for power adj. megalomanical
See Bible again.
Sadomasochistic sa·do·mas·o·chism [sey-doh-mas-uh-kiz-uhm, -maz-, sad-oh-] Show IPA –noun 1. interaction, especially sexual activity, in which one person enjoys inflicting physical or mental suffering on another person, who derives pleasure from experiencing pain. 2. gratification, especially sexual, gained through inflicting or receiving pain; sadism and masochism combined. adj. sadomasochistic
As before...see Bible again
Capriciously malevolent bully ... I'll let you do this one yourself, I'm away to get pished.
Of course "arguably" is the key word.
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/ ... -testament
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WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Christian value.
No it isn't. You are jumping to conclusions. Jesus never specifically says a lot of things are wrong, but using the moral guidance and values of his teaching we can draw the conclusion that they are.
Drawing conclusions, reason, and logic are NOT Christian values.
The damned whore, Reason
The following quotes concerning the evil of human reason are from the father of Christian Protestantism, Martin Luther:
Die verfluchte Huhre, Vernunft. (The damned whore, Reason).
Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.
Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but -- more frequently than not -- struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.
Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.
There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason... Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed.
Martin Luther, quoted by Walter Kaufmann, The Faith of a Heretic, (Garden City, NY, Doubleday, 1963), p. 75
Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.
Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason.
To be a Christian, you must "pluck out the eye of reason."
People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.
Martin Luther, "Works," Volume 22, c. 1543
We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist.
Martin Luther, "Lectures on Genesis"
All our experience with history should teach us, when we look back, how badly human wisdom is betrayed when it relies on itself.
http://www.jesuscult.com/Luther_Anti-Reason.htm
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WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Christian value.
No it isn't. You are jumping to conclusions. Jesus never specifically says a lot of things are wrong, but using the moral guidance and values of his teaching we can draw the conclusion that they are.
Drawing conclusions, reason, and logic are NOT Christian values.
The damned whore, Reason...
http://www.jesuscult.com/Luther_Anti-Reason.htm
Thanks, bro ... I had forgotten all about that aspect of Christianity. Here's one of my favourites...
And here's Mark 10:15 for your consideration...
Obviously, this means we should all come to God as would a child; abandoning all doubt, knowledge, reason, and understanding, and trusting wholly in those perverted, self-serving, quasi-political shepherds we call "Pastors" and Priests".
Therefore, it is safe to assume that slavery is a Christian value.
No it isn't. You are jumping to conclusions. Jesus never specifically says a lot of things are wrong, but using the moral guidance and values of his teaching we can draw the conclusion that they are.
Drawing conclusions, reason, and logic are NOT Christian values.
The damned whore, Reason...
http://www.jesuscult.com/Luther_Anti-Reason.htm
Thanks, bro ... I had forgotten all about that aspect of Christianity. Here's one of my favourites...
And here's Mark 10:15 for your consideration...
Obviously, this means we should all come to God as would a child; abandoning all doubt, knowledge, reason, and understanding, and trusting wholly in those perverted, self-serving, quasi-political shepherds we call "Pastors" and Priests".
My older sister was given up for adoption and adopted by a Christian extremist family, her and her husband firmly believes that the earth is NO OLDER than 4000 years old
In my college contemporary moral and social issues class, we discussed religion and we were talking about the fact that NO religion has a philosophically compelling argument, that if you presented the case of religion to a reasonable man he would have no reason to accept it as true. As a child I used to get in trouble for trying to apply reason and logic to the bible. Whenever is said "this doesn't make sense, it can't be true as I understand it." they would usually yell at me and in confession, being reasonable was usually my biggest sin I committed when I was a Christian because the way they yelled at me I figured it was a sin.
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WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.
Obviously, this means we should all come to God as would a child; abandoning all doubt, knowledge, reason, and understanding, and trusting wholly in those perverted, self-serving, quasi-political shepherds we call "Pastors" and Priests".
No no no, you are taking it out of context and misinterpreting it, you need to interpret it correctly 'become like children' does not mean 'become childlike' but to become comparable to children is to be in the same situation as children – that is, to be born again. My interpretation is more true than your interpretation because I say it is, so I'm going to heaven and not you because I'm better than you and God loves me more and I just want to be loved because my priest touches me more than my parents, blah, blah, blah.
_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.
If you criticize Christianity, I'll assume you are not a Christian. In this case, I'll give you some good advice: Let the silly interpret their own book as they will. You don't have to fight them on their own ground. You don't have to use their wrong method to find out that they are wrong. Be more critical.
My problem with interpretation is that it's all based on opinion, which is why there is so many denominations, I take the bible as either 100% true or 100% false, there is NO in between for holy books, and I have read it and reject it on the grounds that this supposed "Good God" is the most vile, evil, despicable being in all of existence.
It is a very wrong reason to reject anything. Obviously the God of the Old Testament was vengeful and horrible. Why would it make it any less true than if he was kind? Can you really just decide what is in function of what you would want to be?
Also, notice than books are books, whether they are holy or not, and that books are never 100% in the right, and rarely 100% in the wrong. Being critical is not rejecting everything that is bound between two covers because you don't like what people do with it.
I don't see why anyone wanting to discredit Christianity should even care about the content, much less use scholastics to discredit it -- this very method is exactly what is most wrong with any religion based on holy writings in the first place. To be honest, what is argued to have happened is thoroughly irrelevant to the veracity of such texts. There is absolutely no way to determine whether or not the universe was the work of a divine creator in the first place, and any further action by said hypothetical creator after the moment of creation is also beyond knowledge.
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