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Sweetleaf
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30 Oct 2012, 2:40 pm

Perhaps I took the half ret*d thing wrong, thought it was meant more insultingly like the poster calling everyone here half ret*d to be mean. I guess I can sort of get what is more meant, I myself find myself to be rather slow with processing things and doing thinks like work. Its like I have intelligence but a lot of people wouldn't notice because how 'slow' or whatever I am so I can sort of get it.


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cherrycoke
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30 Oct 2012, 4:58 pm

onks wrote:
Callista wrote:
The phrase "just the placebo effect" doesn't really cover it, does it? The placebo effect is powerful. Your mind's effect on your body is powerful, too. For example, most of an antidepressant's effect is placebo effect--it's the result of your having been given hope that recovery will now be easier. (A small but significant part of it is due to the actual drug, though, which is why we use antidepressants rather than placebos to treat depression.)

Just the fact that you're doing something can encourage you so much that you start to get better.


Has this been researched scientifically? I mean how much better (in numbers or whatever comparison) the drugs work than a placebo?

Some drugs probably have a high placebo component. But some dont and work more effectively then.

With anti depression medicines i wouldnt be too surprised if they come off quite badly. Once developed and now sold for how many years without improving the effect, diminishing the side effects.

I mean the side effect that you might feel much worse when you'd not fade out the drug. And even commit suicide.
Really nice drugs :lol:


It has been researched scientifically, and the studies and meta-studies seem to show a very small effect by the active drug over the placebo.

I'm not really sure if I'm allowed to post the entire article but since I'm on a university license I wont risk it but I'll paste the abstract results and author conclusions:

"Nine studies involving 751 participants were included. Two of them produced effect sizes which showed a consistent and statistically significant difference in favour of the active drug. Combining all studies produced a pooled estimate of effect of 0.39 standard deviations (confidence interval, 0.24 to 0.54) in favour of the antidepressant measured by improvement in mood. There was high heterogeneity due to one strongly positive trial. Sensitivity analysis omitting this trial reduced the pooled effect to 0.17 (0.00 to 0.34)."

"The more conservative estimates from the present analysis found that differences between antidepressants and active placebos were small. This suggests that unblinding effects may inflate the efficacy of antidepressants in trials using inert placebos. Further research into unblinding is warranted."

Active placebos versus antidepressants for depression - Joanna Moncrieff, Simon Wessely, Rebecca Hardy



Apple_in_my_Eye
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30 Oct 2012, 8:49 pm

onks wrote:
Callista wrote:
The phrase "just the placebo effect" doesn't really cover it, does it? The placebo effect is powerful. Your mind's effect on your body is powerful, too. For example, most of an antidepressant's effect is placebo effect--it's the result of your having been given hope that recovery will now be easier. (A small but significant part of it is due to the actual drug, though, which is why we use antidepressants rather than placebos to treat depression.)

Just the fact that you're doing something can encourage you so much that you start to get better.


Has this been researched scientifically? I mean how much better (in numbers or whatever comparison) the drugs work than a placebo?

Some drugs probably have a high placebo component. But some dont and work more effectively then.


These studies that you hear about that say that "antidepressants are only slightly better than placebo" included participants with very mild depression. If you separate out those people and leave in those with moderate-to-severe depression, then the studies show a clear and unambiguous benefit of anti-depressant drugs over placebo. So, IMO, the notion that antidepressants are placebos is often exaggerated.

And as far as the placebo effect, doesn't it wear off with time? Like people who go to faith healers and stand up out of wheelchairs, but are back in them weeks or months later?

IMO, the notion of antidepressants threatens a lot of people's feelings of free will, and so anytime the media brings up something like "antidepressants are just placebos" it quickly becomes a popular meme. Before "AD's are placebos," there was Dr. Peter Breggin (sp?) and his book "Talking to Prozac" which made a big splash when Prozac first hit the market. Ironically, his message was that Prozac worked too well (made people "better than well") and that that creeped him out.



JRR
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30 Oct 2012, 8:53 pm

You're coping with meds. It's not a cure, but a method in working with it.

I'm on the middle/high and work much, much better with my Wellburtrin and tons of effort. But, I know I'll never be "cured." My mind is simply configured different than most people. If I can work enough on my social skills, I'll be able to behave in a way that looks as if I've been "cured" to the rest of the world, but I won't be "cured." My mind is different, and in certain ways, arguably better than most. I just have to work on the places which are not.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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30 Oct 2012, 8:53 pm

cherrycoke wrote:
Simon Wessely

Great, Dr. "PTSD is only real with combat vets, and even then most of the cases are fake." Not surprising that his name would be on an anti-antidepressant study.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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30 Oct 2012, 9:11 pm

Nonperson wrote:
I found an easier cure! After a bottle of wine, I'm really confident, social, and 100% sure I'm acting appropriately and making a good impression. I'm also really hot and a great dancer!

(Ok, I better cut the sarcasm here. I mean to say: you aren't cured, you're just feeling better emotionally. You might even be heading for a nasty shock if you're overconfident.)

Heh, yeah. Stimulants make most people feel confident. That's part of why people take them illicitly. I remember seeing interviews on TV of people about Sting (the musician; the band "The Police" for the younger folk here) and people saying that he was an even bigger a-hole with a bigger ego back during his cocaine days. That said, for most people with poor self-esteem a little egotism will probably help them more than hurt.

I don't mean to say that there's no good use for stimulants, just to be careful about psychotropic effects, because they recalibrate your sense of reality in a way that's hard to see through until later (much like depression, come to think of it),



Ensiferum
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31 Oct 2012, 8:39 am

Aaron1570 wrote:
Vyvance. I also have ADD so the Vyvane makes me super focused. You need confidence and alot of it. I was always depressed and anti social. One day I found a religion and that gave me hope for the future. I had a game plan for what I was going to do career wise. I started working out, eating better, feeling better, meditating. I became chivalrous, I bought better close, worked harder, got better pay. Allways putting my foot out. I became a man of class. I use to be really self concious that I was a 20 year old virgin, but I use that to my advantage. Ive convinced myself to wait for marrige. Itll be the best night of my life. Plus itll be the greatest night of my life. Practice Practice PRACTICE! Vouleteer. Join a brotherhood. Ultimate self confidence. :D


A lot of people, including NT's get more or less the same effect from the above, but it is not meant to cure autism, maybe just a general improvement that suits you.

For instance, a NT might take pills (or cocaine) in order to enhance confidence, mood and their social function and in terms of lifestyle changes, it is exactly the same. Maybe to some extent, it doesn't cure your autism or even helps, but it changes some of your general lifestyle aspects, just because you are on the ASD doesn't mean you are incapable of making decent changes in your life.



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31 Oct 2012, 8:49 am

Fnord wrote:
a. Autism has no cure.
b. Chemicals can alter your perspective.
: : Either you never had Autism, or those chemicals are affecting your mind.



Took the words out of my mouth. I absolutely agree with you.



cherrycoke
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31 Oct 2012, 10:45 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
These studies that you hear about that say that "antidepressants are only slightly better than placebo" included participants with very mild depression. If you separate out those people and leave in those with moderate-to-severe depression, then the studies show a clear and unambiguous benefit


That's called fiddling with the test to achieve the results you want :)



Apple_in_my_Eye
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31 Oct 2012, 2:05 pm

cherrycoke wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
These studies that you hear about that say that "antidepressants are only slightly better than placebo" included participants with very mild depression. If you separate out those people and leave in those with moderate-to-severe depression, then the studies show a clear and unambiguous benefit


That's called fiddling with the test to achieve the results you want :)


Well, then I'd say that setting up a study about depression to include people who aren't really depressed is deliberately designing it to fail.



onks
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31 Oct 2012, 3:00 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:

These studies that you hear about that say that "antidepressants are only slightly better than placebo" included participants with very mild depression. If you separate out those people and leave in those with moderate-to-severe depression, then the studies show a clear and unambiguous benefit of anti-depressant drugs over placebo. So, IMO, the notion that antidepressants are placebos is often exaggerated.

And as far as the placebo effect, doesn't it wear off with time? Like people who go to faith healers and stand up out of wheelchairs, but are back in them weeks or months later?

IMO, the notion of antidepressants threatens a lot of people's feelings of free will, and so anytime the media brings up something like "antidepressants are just placebos" it quickly becomes a popular meme. Before "AD's are placebos," there was Dr. Peter Breggin (sp?) and his book "Talking to Prozac" which made a big splash when Prozac first hit the market. Ironically, his message was that Prozac worked too well (made people "better than well") and that that creeped him out.


cherrycoke wrote:

It has been researched scientifically, and the studies and meta-studies seem to show a very small effect by the active drug over the placebo.

I'm not really sure if I'm allowed to post the entire article but since I'm on a university license I wont risk it but I'll paste the abstract results and author conclusions:

"Nine studies involving 751 participants were included. Two of them produced effect sizes which showed a consistent and statistically significant difference in favour of the active drug. Combining all studies produced a pooled estimate of effect of 0.39 standard deviations (confidence interval, 0.24 to 0.54) in favour of the antidepressant measured by improvement in mood. There was high heterogeneity due to one strongly positive trial. Sensitivity analysis omitting this trial reduced the pooled effect to 0.17 (0.00 to 0.34)."

"The more conservative estimates from the present analysis found that differences between antidepressants and active placebos were small. This suggests that unblinding effects may inflate the efficacy of antidepressants in trials using inert placebos. Further research into unblinding is warranted."

Active placebos versus antidepressants for depression - Joanna Moncrieff, Simon Wessely, Rebecca Hardy



Hey, interesting discussion...
Was not so much worried that antidepressants dont work. I think theyll probably do for the cases where youd need them. Just interesting would be a comparison with other drugs like how effective they are, and how effective compared to placebos.
What I heard that they are cash cows. Once developed not very much improved (especially on side effects)



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31 Oct 2012, 7:10 pm

*Sigh*

Autism cannot be "cured". Either you weren't Autistic to begin with, or you're experiencing the temporary effects of those chemicals. Or, perhaps you're trolling...


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