Is Suicide a Sin?
13 Jan 2013, 3:01 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
To go even further, I cannot say what I would do because I have never been in that situation. Knowing me, I would hang on because that's how I am in and I can put up with a lot of discomfort. Would hope I could get painkillers though.
And perhaps this isn't really a suicide. This is just the inevitable, right? Someone is going to die anyway. Is this really suicide? I don't think it is.
To me, suicide is when a young, healthy person goes out and freezes themselves in the middle of the night because they are depressed. To me, this is a sin against nature. Sorry if you feel differently.
And perhaps this isn't really a suicide. This is just the inevitable, right? Someone is going to die anyway. Is this really suicide? I don't think it is.
To me, suicide is when a young, healthy person goes out and freezes themselves in the middle of the night because they are depressed. To me, this is a sin against nature. Sorry if you feel differently.
My argument is that if someone is in agonising pain and terminally ill with only weeks or moths left to live with no quality of life, they are perfectly justified in taking their own life rather than perpetuating it. I am saying this from having lived through the experience of living with my mother while she died over several months and seen at first hand the horrific suffering she underwent, slowly starving to death, with her begging for someone to end her life. Painkillers, no matter how strong, do not turn ongoing daily torture and a horrible slow death into a painless process - they don't work like that.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
13 Jan 2013, 3:08 pm
TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
To go even further, I cannot say what I would do because I have never been in that situation. Knowing me, I would hang on because that's how I am in and I can put up with a lot of discomfort. Would hope I could get painkillers though.
And perhaps this isn't really a suicide. This is just the inevitable, right? Someone is going to die anyway. Is this really suicide? I don't think it is.
To me, suicide is when a young, healthy person goes out and freezes themselves in the middle of the night because they are depressed. To me, this is a sin against nature. Sorry if you feel differently.
And perhaps this isn't really a suicide. This is just the inevitable, right? Someone is going to die anyway. Is this really suicide? I don't think it is.
To me, suicide is when a young, healthy person goes out and freezes themselves in the middle of the night because they are depressed. To me, this is a sin against nature. Sorry if you feel differently.
My argument is that if someone is in agonising pain and terminally ill with only weeks or moths left to live with no quality of life, they are perfectly justified in taking their own life rather than perpetuating it. I am saying this from having lived through the experience of living with my mother while she died over several months and seen at first hand the horrific suffering she underwent, slowly starving to death, with her begging for someone to end her life. Painkillers, no matter how strong, do not turn ongoing daily torture and a horrible slow death into a painless process - they don't work like that.
I am sorry you had to endure this it must have been horrific, but my question to you is, is that really the same as someone who suffers from depression and no other ailment ending their life? Is it in the same class? To end the life of someone who is succumbing to death in a matter of weeks or days and it will definitely happen wants to go peacefully, is it really a suicide?
13 Jan 2013, 3:19 pm
NAKnight wrote:
Here is another article that might shed some light.
When a person claims that suicide will end a person’s suffering, they are making a religious claim about the nature of life after death. This cannot be avoided. They are counting on the fact that there is no conscious existence beyond the grave, or that whatever greets us will be pleasant, an improvement on the misery of life on this earth.
If they are wrong, though, and there is a hell awaiting those who deserve it, then for some euthanasia will not end misery, but compound it. The person suffering here on earth is not transported to a place of peace and rest, but rather to an infinitely greater suffering in hell. It is theoretically possible, then, that “mercy killing” could actually be an act of cruelty.
It seems impossible to avoid the intrusion of religious views on either side of this issue. This is not a matter of one party forcing his religious view on another. It’s a matter of two religious views competing with each other. More is at stake here than some people realize.
When a person claims that suicide will end a person’s suffering, they are making a religious claim about the nature of life after death. This cannot be avoided. They are counting on the fact that there is no conscious existence beyond the grave, or that whatever greets us will be pleasant, an improvement on the misery of life on this earth.
If they are wrong, though, and there is a hell awaiting those who deserve it, then for some euthanasia will not end misery, but compound it. The person suffering here on earth is not transported to a place of peace and rest, but rather to an infinitely greater suffering in hell. It is theoretically possible, then, that “mercy killing” could actually be an act of cruelty.
It seems impossible to avoid the intrusion of religious views on either side of this issue. This is not a matter of one party forcing his religious view on another. It’s a matter of two religious views competing with each other. More is at stake here than some people realize.
What's your point?
I see those paragraphs as scare tactics. Typical of organized religion. I don't count on the fact that there's no existence beyond the grave. I do hope that if it exists it will be beyond the judgmental BS of this world, and that if there is a loving god, that love includes those who take their own lives - a truly unconditional love would, wouldn't it? If god is less than that, as judgmental as most people I've met, then I have no respect for that god, and if I burn in hell so be it. I rebel against such a god. I will rebel forever against a judgmental, unforgiving, unloving god. To me that's not a god but a devil. If you want to worship such a god, go ahead. I don't.
I have spiritual beliefs, but not such conditional, cruel ones intended most likely to keep someone going back to and tithing their church out of fear.
_________________
Female
INFP
13 Jan 2013, 3:24 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
To go even further, I cannot say what I would do because I have never been in that situation. Knowing me, I would hang on because that's how I am in and I can put up with a lot of discomfort. Would hope I could get painkillers though.
And perhaps this isn't really a suicide. This is just the inevitable, right? Someone is going to die anyway. Is this really suicide? I don't think it is.
To me, suicide is when a young, healthy person goes out and freezes themselves in the middle of the night because they are depressed. To me, this is a sin against nature. Sorry if you feel differently.
And perhaps this isn't really a suicide. This is just the inevitable, right? Someone is going to die anyway. Is this really suicide? I don't think it is.
To me, suicide is when a young, healthy person goes out and freezes themselves in the middle of the night because they are depressed. To me, this is a sin against nature. Sorry if you feel differently.
My argument is that if someone is in agonising pain and terminally ill with only weeks or moths left to live with no quality of life, they are perfectly justified in taking their own life rather than perpetuating it. I am saying this from having lived through the experience of living with my mother while she died over several months and seen at first hand the horrific suffering she underwent, slowly starving to death, with her begging for someone to end her life. Painkillers, no matter how strong, do not turn ongoing daily torture and a horrible slow death into a painless process - they don't work like that.
I am sorry you had to endure this it must have been horrific, but my question to you is, is that really the same as someone who suffers from depression and no other ailment ending their life? Is it in the same class? To end the life of someone who is succumbing to death in a matter of weeks or days and it will definitely happen wants to go peacefully, is it really a suicide?
I would make a distinction between someone who is clinically (suicidally) depressed and someone who is terminally ill dying a slow agonising death. The former can seek treatment and get help and maybe find some quality of life but for the latter there is no longer any medical help available that can make them well again and the hospital has sent them home to die. A stage may be reached during the last weeks or months of life of someone who is terminally ill that their quality of life is so horrific that they should be allowed to end it with dignity if they wish. She had been begging to be allowed to die. When my mother finally died it was an immense relief for everyone. We all mourned her death but in spite of this the whole family were happy on her behalf when her suffering finally ended.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
13 Jan 2013, 3:30 pm
TallyMan wrote:
I would make a distinction between someone who is clinically (suicidally) depressed and someone who is terminally ill dying a slow agonising death. The former can seek treatment and get help and maybe find some quality of life but for the latter there is no longer any medical help available that can make them well again and the hospital has sent them home to die. A stage may be reached during the last weeks or months of life of someone who is terminally ill that their quality of life is so horrific that they should be allowed to end it with dignity if they wish. She had been begging to be allowed to die. When my mother finally died it was an immense relief for everyone. We all mourned her death but in spite of this the whole family were happy on her behalf when her suffering finally ended.
I can understand and I know it must have been difficult. My grandfather was terminally ill and my mother experienced a similar situation although she has never talked of him wanting to end his life. It is tremendously painful for everyone involved and you have my sympathies.
We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.
Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.
13 Jan 2013, 3:54 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I can understand and I know it must have been difficult. My grandfather was terminally ill and my mother experienced a similar situation although she has never talked of him wanting to end his life. It is tremendously painful for everyone involved and you have my sympathies.
We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.
Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.
We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.
Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.
I understand what you are saying. I think those who have experienced chronic pain themselves or lived with a loved one watching them die a horrible slow death can appreciate that suicide isn't a black and white issue; it is a whole muddy grey mess.
To add to the mud I suffer from something called trigeminal neuralgia. This is classed as one of the most painful conditions a person can have and is actually nicknamed "the suicide disease" simply because so many people take their own lives when the ongoing pain become unbearable. It manifests in slightly different forms and thankfully mine has largely been in remission for the last year or so. It is caused by a short circuit of the trigeminal nerve in the jaw which tells the brain that the jaw in undergoing severe trauma. In my case the attacks provoke the pain identical to having my jaw bone smashed with a large hammer / chopped in two with giant bolt cutters. The pathology is bizarre, I feel no pain most of the time then suddenly out of nowhere I experience my jaw being smashed and grab my jaw and cry out in agony. Then after twenty seconds or so the pain suddenly disappears leaving no trace. The attacks are clustered, several can occur within an hour then a few hours rest then another bout of attacks. At the worst I experience having my jaw bone smashed around 50 times a day - it leaves me absolutely drained, physically and emotionally. It is like the torturers perfect instrument - I can be tortured again and again with the same thing but I don't die. As people with trigeminal neuralgia get older the frequency of the attacks can increase to the point they are unable to function in society and they have to live with a morphine pump attached to them all the time. The disease isn't terminal of itself, but living with it as it progresses becomes virtually impossible for many.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
13 Jan 2013, 4:00 pm
TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I can understand and I know it must have been difficult. My grandfather was terminally ill and my mother experienced a similar situation although she has never talked of him wanting to end his life. It is tremendously painful for everyone involved and you have my sympathies.
We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.
Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.
We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.
Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.
I understand what you are saying. I think those who have experienced chronic pain themselves or lived with a loved one watching them die a horrible slow death can appreciate that suicide isn't a black and white issue; it is a whole muddy grey mess.
To add to the mud I suffer from something called trigeminal neuralgia. This is classed as one of the most painful conditions a person can have and is actually nicknamed "the suicide disease" simply because so many people take their own lives when the ongoing pain become unbearable. It manifests in slightly different forms and thankfully mine has largely been in remission for the last year or so. It is caused by a short circuit of the trigeminal nerve in the jaw which tells the brain that the jaw in undergoing severe trauma. In my case the attacks provoke the pain identical to having my jaw bone smashed with a large hammer / chopped in two with giant bolt cutters. The pathology is bizarre, I feel no pain most of the time then suddenly out of nowhere I experience my jaw being smashed and grab my jaw and cry out in agony. Then after twenty seconds or so the pain suddenly disappears leaving no trace. The attacks are clustered, several can occur within an hour then a few hours rest then another bout of attacks. At the worst I experience having my jaw bone smashed around 50 times a day - it leaves me absolutely drained, physically and emotionally. It is like the torturers perfect instrument - I can be tortured again and again with the same thing but I don't die. As people with trigeminal neuralgia get older the frequency of the attacks can increase to the point they are unable to function in society and they have to live with a morphine pump attached to them all the time. The disease isn't terminal of itself, but living with it as it progresses becomes virtually impossible for many.
Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.
13 Jan 2013, 4:13 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I can understand and I know it must have been difficult. My grandfather was terminally ill and my mother experienced a similar situation although she has never talked of him wanting to end his life. It is tremendously painful for everyone involved and you have my sympathies.
We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.
Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.
We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.
Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.
I understand what you are saying. I think those who have experienced chronic pain themselves or lived with a loved one watching them die a horrible slow death can appreciate that suicide isn't a black and white issue; it is a whole muddy grey mess.
To add to the mud I suffer from something called trigeminal neuralgia. This is classed as one of the most painful conditions a person can have and is actually nicknamed "the suicide disease" simply because so many people take their own lives when the ongoing pain become unbearable. It manifests in slightly different forms and thankfully mine has largely been in remission for the last year or so. It is caused by a short circuit of the trigeminal nerve in the jaw which tells the brain that the jaw in undergoing severe trauma. In my case the attacks provoke the pain identical to having my jaw bone smashed with a large hammer / chopped in two with giant bolt cutters. The pathology is bizarre, I feel no pain most of the time then suddenly out of nowhere I experience my jaw being smashed and grab my jaw and cry out in agony. Then after twenty seconds or so the pain suddenly disappears leaving no trace. The attacks are clustered, several can occur within an hour then a few hours rest then another bout of attacks. At the worst I experience having my jaw bone smashed around 50 times a day - it leaves me absolutely drained, physically and emotionally. It is like the torturers perfect instrument - I can be tortured again and again with the same thing but I don't die. As people with trigeminal neuralgia get older the frequency of the attacks can increase to the point they are unable to function in society and they have to live with a morphine pump attached to them all the time. The disease isn't terminal of itself, but living with it as it progresses becomes virtually impossible for many.
Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.
Same here, I hope it stays in remision! I would say, Tallyman, that you have a more insightful perspective on this topic than most people can even imagine.
_________________
Female
INFP
13 Jan 2013, 4:16 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.
I had one brief attack yesterday, the first for a long time. It is entirely unpredictable. However, with it being in remission I'm hoping it stays that way. Unfortunately the general prognosis with this disease is that it gets worse with age. I can't begin to image what it must be like to experience this level of pain a thousand times a day. But anyway, the point I was making is that suicide isn't a clear cut issue, there is no black and white about it.
If I could make a generalisation it would be that suicide is a valid option if someone's quality of life has deteriorated to such a point that they simply do not want to live any more and there is no possibility that their quality of life can ever improve again. If this desire to suicide is as a result of depression then they cannot say that; because depression clouds the mind to ways to improve one's life and with suitable medical care, medication, therapy, changes to life style etc the depressed person may regain a good quality of life again. However, with physical illnesses this may not always be the case and if someone has to spend the rest of their life in chronic pain then I regard suicide as perfectly valid and acceptable. Even the family members of said person cannot hold it against them in such circumstances - to do so would be selfish of them. Sometimes you have just got to let someone go, and allow them to end their suffering.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
13 Jan 2013, 4:31 pm
TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.
I had one brief attack yesterday, the first for a long time. It is entirely unpredictable. However, with it being in remission I'm hoping it stays that way. Unfortunately the general prognosis with this disease is that it gets worse with age. I can't begin to image what it must be like to experience this level of pain a thousand times a day. But anyway, the point I was making is that suicide isn't a clear cut issue, there is no black and white about it.
If I could make a generalisation it would be that suicide is a valid option if someone's quality of life has deteriorated to such a point that they simply do not want to live any more and there is no possibility that their quality of life can ever improve again. If this desire to suicide is as a result of depression then they cannot say that; because depression clouds the mind to ways to improve one's life and with suitable medical care, medication, therapy, changes to life style etc the depressed person may regain a good quality of life again. However, with physical illnesses this may not always be the case and if someone has to spend the rest of their life in chronic pain then I regard suicide as perfectly valid and acceptable. Even the family members of said person cannot hold it against them in such circumstances - to do so would be selfish of them. Sometimes you have just got to let someone go, and allow them to end their suffering.
Tallyman, I am an optimist and I hope medicine will advance to the point the pain can be taken away so such people can live their remaining days peacefully and will not feel the need to commit suicide. It is still done as the last resort and because they feel it is the only alternative and I don't like that part.
13 Jan 2013, 4:38 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Tallyman, I am an optimist and I hope medicine will advance to the point the pain can be taken away so such people can live their remaining days peacefully and will not feel the need to commit suicide. It is still done as the last resort and because they feel it is the only alternative and I don't like that part.
You'll get no arguments from me there!
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
13 Jan 2013, 8:55 pm
BlueAbyss wrote:
What's your point?
I see those paragraphs as scare tactics. Typical of organized religion. I don't count on the fact that there's no existence beyond the grave. I do hope that if it exists it will be beyond the judgmental BS of this world, and that if there is a loving god, that love includes those who take their own lives - a truly unconditional love would, wouldn't it? If god is less than that, as judgmental as most people I've met, then I have no respect for that god, and if I burn in hell so be it. I rebel against such a god. I will rebel forever against a judgmental, unforgiving, unloving god. To me that's not a god but a devil. If you want to worship such a god, go ahead. I don't.
I have spiritual beliefs, but not such conditional, cruel ones intended most likely to keep someone going back to and tithing their church out of fear.
I'm not trying to scare anyone or anything.
I'm seriously not. I'm offering my position, if that somehow scares you, that something you must work with.
Why is that when TallyMan makes the claim
TallyMan wrote:
My argument is that if someone is in agonising pain and terminally ill with only weeks or moths left to live with no quality of life, they are perfectly justified in taking their own life rather than perpetuating it.]
With only two weeks left to live, might as well ride the life out. Go out strong.
That's like running to the end of a race and quitting before the finish line.
Everyone nods in approval and doesn't challenge it yet when I wrote the paragraph, I all of sudden I become a judgmental bastard?
Do you see the disconnect and the double-standard?
Jake
_________________
In The Morning to all Hams on the air, ships at sea, boots on the grounds, drones in the sky and all the Human Resources charged up and ready to go just the way the Government wants you to be..
13 Jan 2013, 9:11 pm
Let me break it down for you.
When a person claims that suicide will end a person’s suffering, they are making a religious claim about the nature of life after death. This cannot be avoided. They are counting on the fact that there is no conscious existence beyond the grave, or that whatever greets us will be pleasant, an improvement on the misery of life on this earth.
So, basically, if your an Atheist, after you finnaly die and be transported to oblivion, it will be better than the judgmental world you are in now.
If they are wrong, though, and there is a hell awaiting those who deserve it, then for some euthanasia will not end misery, but compound it. The person suffering here on earth is not transported to a place of peace and rest, but rather to an infinitely greater suffering in hell. It is theoretically possible, then, that “mercy killing” could actually be an act of cruelty.
So, what he is trying to say is; If Atheism is in-correct and there is a heaven/hell waiting for those who die, Euthanasia will not ease the pain but rather prolong it.
It seems impossible to avoid the intrusion of religious views on either side of this issue. This is not a matter of one party forcing his religious view on another. It’s a matter of two religious views competing with each other. More is at stake here than some people realize
Jake
_________________
In The Morning to all Hams on the air, ships at sea, boots on the grounds, drones in the sky and all the Human Resources charged up and ready to go just the way the Government wants you to be..
13 Jan 2013, 10:35 pm
NAKnight wrote:
If they are wrong, though, and there is a hell awaiting those who deserve it, then for some euthanasia will not end misery, but compound it. The person suffering here on earth is not transported to a place of peace and rest, but rather to an infinitely greater suffering in hell. It is theoretically possible, then, that “mercy killing” could actually be an act of cruelty.
So, what he is trying to say is; If Atheism is in-correct and there is a heaven/hell waiting for those who die, Euthanasia will not ease the pain but rather prolong it.
So, what he is trying to say is; If Atheism is in-correct and there is a heaven/hell waiting for those who die, Euthanasia will not ease the pain but rather prolong it.
It is just a standard Pascal's wager.
The correct approach to it is. There are tons of god theories. So most likely, IF there is a god, the real god is going to be angry at you regardless of what you do (Because you picked the wrong god).
If it happens to be the Christian god, he is going to be angry at you for just about anything. So we are all going to hell anyway. We might as well support euthanasia in the mean time.
_________________
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