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youwho
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14 Jan 2013, 12:09 pm

Titled in reference to the book by Alain de Botton, which I must admit I haven't actually read yet,
but which appears to be along these lines.

One thing I am coming to realise is the practical benefit of religious communities in terms of
preserving social connections, allowing time for reflection, introducing rituals and
providing 'answers' to big questions, and so on. These things seem to be specifically
designed to help preserve psychological health in human societies.

The difficulty I find is that in order to access these 'good' things, (at least in the case of Christianity)
we are required to profess belief in an entity responsible for the creation of the universe who
is watching over us and judging us in this life for determination of our fate in the next and all that.

Personally I just cannot reconcile what we know from science about the enormous scale of the
universe, both the macroscopic and microscopic, with the idea of a creator being who knows or cares
anything about me or anyone else as an individual.

Any god able to conceive of and build something of the size and complexity of the universe,
could probably spend time playing with clusters of galaxies as though they were pebbles on the beach
and would likely not even notice we were here at all.

Is there any way to find a community which acknowledges the practical side of
the religious experience without requiring the belief in supernatural entities.

Perhaps instead of reading the lessons from a book which purports to being the
work of god, we could instead have lectures or discussions on some scientific or
philosophical person or subject.

This Sunday might be learning about Newton, next week Feynman
and the week after Plato or Socrates or something.
I'm sure there are ample examples of solid lessons to be learned from history
to fill the equivalent of an ecclesiastical calendar for years before repetition.

That's actually the sort of community I would be interested in joining.
Does it already exist anywhere?



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14 Jan 2013, 12:37 pm

Buddhism?

Still, i understand psychological advantages of religion. i worry too much abot death and a friend of mine has panic attacks over think too deeply.
But to solve that you must believe in life after death or rebirth.

This society would be interesting. I wonder...


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Declension
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14 Jan 2013, 12:42 pm

It's an interesting idea, but there's something strange about the religious impulse - it really likes old things. This is why new religious movements often pretend that they are the modern representation of an ancient tradition.

If today you set up a sacred calendar with months dedicated to famous secular thinkers or whatever, it would seem artificial and geeky. It would take a few hundred years before people could perceive it as important and profound.



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14 Jan 2013, 12:50 pm

Well, Buddhism is the most obvious choice (and has already been posted).

You could also consider the following:

Unitarian Universalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

Nontheist Quakers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheist_Quakers



Declension
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14 Jan 2013, 1:39 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Unitarian Universalism
Nontheist Quakers


I've tried both of those, but I can never make them stick. They are "thin", somehow. They don't have the majesty that you get from a traditional religion.

Basically, they are both just meetings of kindly left-wingers. In the first case, the left-wingers give vague lectures about philosophy and spirituality, and in the second case, the left-wingers stay quiet and occasionally break the silence to share political opinions. There's nothing really interesting and ritualistic, like taking communion or repeating set phrases.



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14 Jan 2013, 1:39 pm

Closest thing I can think of is a meetup at a coffee shop. I sometimes show up to a bookstore meetup but it usually winds up getting into politics more than things like philosophy. Another idea may be any free lectures at a local college is such a thing is available.

That still doesn't come close to the regular large gatherings in churches.

I even wonder what Deists do? Maybe they go in church by default even if they're not into a personal interventionist God.

I think a Pantheist would fit in more at the UU church.

I mention these last two because I think either of them could lean toward Secularism as well and might find philosophical common ground with Atheists.



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14 Jan 2013, 2:25 pm

youwho wrote:
Titled in reference to the book by Alain de Botton, which I must admit I haven't actually read yet,
but which appears to be along these lines.

One thing I am coming to realise is the practical benefit of religious communities in terms of
preserving social connections, allowing time for reflection, introducing rituals and
providing 'answers' to big questions, and so on. These things seem to be specifically
designed to help preserve psychological health in human societies.

Back when I was of the atheistic outlook I used to say things about the benefit of symbolism, community connection, etc. and it got scoffed at as completely unneeded/redundant. Looks like people are getting a bit softer at heart around here. :)



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14 Jan 2013, 2:37 pm

What you describe is similar to LaVeyan Satanism. It's an atheistic philosophy which focuses on rationality, individuality, material success, and carnal enjoyment of the world. Rituals and spells may be performed as psychodrama; most LaVeyan Satanists don't believe in supernatural magic, but there is some tolerance for limited spirituality. There are several internet communities dedicated to this and other forms of Satanism, but if you want to officially get involved with LaVey's Church of Satan, there's a $200 admission fee and and an application form. There are also LaVeyan-based breakaway churches (e.g. the First Satanic Church) which have similar but often slightly differing beliefs and different standards for admittance.


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14 Jan 2013, 2:48 pm

One-Winged-Angel wrote:
LaVey's Church of Satan, there's a $200 admission fee


:lol: That is one big collection plate. In my opinion any "church" requiring an admission fee is a con job.


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techstepgenr8tion
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14 Jan 2013, 2:54 pm

One-Winged-Angel wrote:
What you describe is similar to LaVeyan Satanism. It's an atheistic philosophy which focuses on rationality, individuality, material success, and carnal enjoyment of the world. Rituals and spells may be performed as psychodrama; most LaVeyan Satanists don't believe in supernatural magic, but there is some tolerance for limited spirituality.

They're generally seen as the trailor-trash of the Illuminated world, whereas the mystery school Luciferians are significantly more high-brow (ie. your Pythagorean math occult) and they generally tend to see LeVeyan satanism as heresy (albeit its a great red-herring to make people believe that harmless teen-angsty sorts is where it starts and stops, thus aiding to conceal the real-deal).



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14 Jan 2013, 2:56 pm

LaVeyan Satanism sounds more like an extreme form of religious satire.



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14 Jan 2013, 2:57 pm

Declension wrote:
I've tried both of those, but I can never make them stick. They are "thin", somehow. They don't have the majesty that you get from a traditional religion.

Basically, they are both just meetings of kindly left-wingers. In the first case, the left-wingers give vague lectures about philosophy and spirituality, and in the second case, the left-wingers stay quiet and occasionally break the silence to share political opinions. There's nothing really interesting and ritualistic, like taking communion or repeating set phrases.


Sounds boring. Just go down the pub instead. Depending on where you live in NZ, I may be able to direct you to a decent one. ;)

(I've never been to NZ.)



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14 Jan 2013, 3:17 pm

Declension wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Unitarian Universalism
Nontheist Quakers


I've tried both of those, but I can never make them stick. They are "thin", somehow. They don't have the majesty that you get from a traditional religion.

Basically, they are both just meetings of kindly left-wingers. In the first case, the left-wingers give vague lectures about philosophy and spirituality, and in the second case, the left-wingers stay quiet and occasionally break the silence to share political opinions. There's nothing really interesting and ritualistic, like taking communion or repeating set phrases.


Interesting. I thought the ritual aspect of church was really dull and just a holdover from Oral Tradition. The only time it seemed interesting is if someone gave a good sermon or homily.

I kind of wonder if while Atheists might seek to be more organized like a congregation, people already organized in religion find it stuffy and boring and are starting to leave. Could the two groups meet in the middle?



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14 Jan 2013, 3:22 pm

VIDEODROME wrote:
LaVeyan Satanism sounds more like an extreme form of religious satire.
Wishful thinking.



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14 Jan 2013, 3:26 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Well, Buddhism is the most obvious choice (and has already been posted).

You could also consider the following:

Unitarian Universalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

Nontheist Quakers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheist_Quakers

I was going to suggest UU. I'm not atheist, more of a spiritually leaning agnostic, but I do sometimes miss belonging to a church. I'm super introverted, but even super introverts have our need to connect. I'd probably have sought out a UU congregation already if I lived near one. BUT it's my understanding that UU tends to be a mixture of people from or in many traditional backgrounds, none of them necessarily atheist, so I would think that finding one that an atheist (or even me) would be comfortable with might take a little trying out to see if it's a good fit. I would think it would be the same with Buddhism, since some sects are rather more steeped in belief than others. I don't know much about Nontheist Quakers.

I think it would be great if there were something specifically for agnostic/atheist leaning people who want some form of connection and non-dogmatic ritual. Maybe something along the lines of the Japanese Tea Ceremony. I think ritual helps people form bonds and center ourselves. The practices of visiting the sick and elderly (if they want it of course) are also things I consider important. Some kind of counseling when one needs it, support during grieving, etc. These are all things that people get in a church that I think everyone needs at some time or another. There's no reason people can't share them without sharing set religious beliefs.

But that's all just my fantasy of a perfect group. :)

There is also the Council for Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org/

and The American Humanist Association
http://www.americanhumanist.org/

I know nothing about either. One or both might fit this need to some degree. But both appear to have membership fees.


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14 Jan 2013, 3:39 pm

One-Winged-Angel wrote:
What you describe is similar to LaVeyan Satanism. It's an atheistic philosophy which focuses on rationality, individuality, material success, and carnal enjoyment of the world. Rituals and spells may be performed as psychodrama; most LaVeyan Satanists don't believe in supernatural magic, but there is some tolerance for limited spirituality. There are several internet communities dedicated to this and other forms of Satanism, but if you want to officially get involved with LaVey's Church of Satan, there's a $200 admission fee and and an application form. There are also LaVeyan-based breakaway churches (e.g. the First Satanic Church) which have similar but often slightly differing beliefs and different standards for admittance.


"Satan" is a metaphor they use to be against Christianity. They're atheists that claim not to believe in God/Satan since those are christian beliefs.

The funny thing is that regular atheists mainly target Christianity over other religions for their disbelief the same way satanists do. :?