I wish I could just straight up say...

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whirlingmind
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13 Apr 2013, 1:37 pm

I have never, and could never, tell someone of the opposite gender that they were attractive, even if my eyes were popping out of my head with how gorgeous they were. 8O

Also, to me, male ogling, is very invasive, they make it look like they are imagining what's underneath the clothing and thinking obscene thoughts, and it's almost like using their eyes in a rape-like way. Maybe that's partly because cause I find eye-contact unsettling and too invasive generally, but for a complete stranger to think lewd things about you is awful.

Like you say, someone is more than their looks, attractiveness can be subjective anyway, and more than someone's face or body makes someone attractive.


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Anomiel
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13 Apr 2013, 5:41 pm

finger wrote:
I think you're attractive to a girl and not get a weird look. Why is it so weird? That's basically what is being said anyway, right? :?


It is possible to say that. Personally, I find that the "direct approach" works much better for me--in appropriate situations, of course--than "indirect approaches" trying to come up with some BS reason why I'm opening the conversation. Other people prefer the indirect method and have better results that way.

Either way, it's really in the delivery and in the reading of cues to adjust that delivery (exactly what people on the spectrum suck at, unfortunately) and not in the words you say. In the extreme case, in a very loud club, they won't understand half the words you're saying anyhow, and it's all in the delivery.

And the best seducers still get more weird looks than successes. Just get used to the weird looks. It's not the end of the world. If the girl's any good, she'll respect at least your guts for asking when most guys just stare at her ass from afar.

Maybe even try practicing somewhere where people don't know you. If you've never done it, it takes enormous guts just to go to a mall and compliment every other girl on her style, smile, and so on (not her looks in the sense of hotness, though!). Once you've done it a couple of time it becomes fun, and the odd ones who just freak out at hearing something nice about themselves actually become funny. If you want to try this exercise, one important thing is to do it without expectations. You don't expect a phone number. You certainly don't expect to sleep with the girl. You just want to test your guts and brighten the day of some girls by telling them something nice about themselves.



whirlingmind
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13 Apr 2013, 6:39 pm

Anomiel wrote:
http://gawker.com/5993807/mansplainer-for-men-why-dont-women-like-it-when-you-tell-them-theyre-hot-in-public


What a weird article, it was odd stuff about cheeseburgers, I gave up on it.


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Anomiel
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13 Apr 2013, 6:42 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
http://gawker.com/5993807/mansplainer-for-men-why-dont-women-like-it-when-you-tell-them-theyre-hot-in-public


What a weird article, it was odd stuff about cheeseburgers, I gave up on it.


It's called a metaphor.


I can't believe I'm doing this, but as I can't tell if you're being rude or didn't understand, this is what the metaphor was about:
In this case, "cheeseburger" is an unwanted compliment, and "dude" = women in general. It is trying to make a point about how, even if something is nice, like cheeseburgers (getting compliments), being forced to eat it day out and day in (constant unwanted compliments) is not nice.



Last edited by Anomiel on 13 Apr 2013, 6:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.

whirlingmind
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13 Apr 2013, 6:44 pm

But usually I kind of get metaphors - this was just confusing and I didn't get the comparison (plus they could have thought of something nicer than a greasy cheeseburger to compare females to!)


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Anomiel
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13 Apr 2013, 6:45 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
But usually I kind of get metaphors - this was just confusing and I didn't get the comparison (plus they could have thought of something nicer than a greasy cheeseburger to compare females to!)


Yup, that's Gawker for you. But the cheeseburger was compliments. That is a sentence I didn't think I'd have to type today. :D



Matt62
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13 Apr 2013, 6:53 pm

Well, I think I obviously have given females the wrong impression in many ways. It really hurt me to be called a creep in my first year in college by girls who did not know me at all.
On the other hand, later in college, I encountered a few really, really sexually aggressive females. Every man's dream? Heck, I thought so before it happened myself. However, it freaked me out in Real Life.
I cannot win.
The second situation was extremely uncomfortable since I had no real idea what to say or do.
I aso find people who compliment me somewhat suspect, never been real comfortable with it.

Sincerely,
Matthew
PS.
On the other hand, remember that we males are visual creatures. Its just an instinct to look.
However, I do not stare at people since eye contact can be a hassle.



Anomiel
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13 Apr 2013, 7:06 pm

So, Matthew, in a thread about why it isn't considered OK to compliment an unknown woman in a fashion that makes her uncomfortable (the answer? because it makes her uncomfortable!), with many women participating about exactly how uncomfortable they find it, it is imperious that we listen to you say you once was raped by a woman, by the sound of it. What exactly has that to do with the topic? Did anyone even talk about rape, or suddenly say it is totally ok to do that to guys?

If I was new to the internet, I'd probably think "oh that's nice, someone wants to share some of his trauma even though it has nothing to do with this thread! Let's all comfort him!" but as someone that has read that over and over and over and over and over and over and over I read that as usually more of
"IT'S TOTALLY OK TO HARASS THE LADIES BECAUSE I WAS ONCE OR TWICE AGGRESSIVELY HIT ON AND DID NOT LIKE IT AT ALL!! ALSO I HATE THEM FOR CALLING ME A CREEP, LET'S BE EXTRA CREEPY. ps. men are visual, and visual means we have to harass women. you wouldn't understand"

I am more upset by other people that have used the same rhetoric to come to some bad conclusions.
The conclusion that was missing in what you wrote is that, if you found it horrible, then of course you must understand now why other people might not like it. And if it happened to you that rarely, then you must understand how it feels if it happens on a regular basis. Is that how you feel? If so, the above is directed at people that use the same terms as you do to derail conversations and you should be aware of that if you're not doing it on purpose.



Anomiel
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13 Apr 2013, 8:15 pm

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/ wrote:
FAQ: What’s wrong with saying that things happen to men, too?

Short answer: Nothing in and of itself. The problem occurs when conversations about women can’t happen on unmoderated blogs without someone showing up and saying, “but [x] happens to men, too!” (also known as a “Patriarchy Hurts Men, Too” or PHMT argument, or a “What About The Mens?” or WATM argument). When this happens, it becomes disruptive of the discussion that’s trying to happen, and has the effect (intended or otherwise) of silencing women’s voices on important issues such as rape and reproductive rights.

When and why PHMT arguments become inappropriate

No one is saying that discussions on men and masculinities shouldn’t go on. It is absolutely important to have dialogue on men’s issues, including discussions on violence done towards men. The thing is, a feminist space — unless the topic is specifically men’s issues — is not the place to have that discussion and neither are spaces (feminist or otherwise) in which the topic is specifically focused on women’s issues.

What it boils down to is this: Men, not women, need to be the ones creating the spaces to discuss men’s issues. There are a lot of feminist allies who do this, in fact, and there also a lot of non-feminist (or anti-feminist, if you really want to go there) spaces that are welcoming to this kind of discussion. Thus, the appropriate response to a thread about women is not to post a comment on it about men, but rather to find (or make) a discussion about men.

Why PHMT arguments are so frustrating

For those new to feminist discussion the angry reaction to PHMT arguments is most likely shocking and more than a little off-putting. Especially if, to all appearances, the question was innocuous. While it would probably best if all bloggers/commenters could stick to the 3-comment rule, having to deal with the same disruptive comments — even when they are made with the best of intentions — is enough to try the patience of even the most patient of educators (which most feminist bloggers and commenters are not).

Consider this comment:

Quote:
Why is it we cannot have even one single public conversation about rape without someone taking the whole thread over with cries of oh the poor mens! what about the mens?
[Jessica (Australian court: If you suck, you must f-ck): comment by JaclynF]


I can easily see why a newbie reading that, especially if said newbie is a man who got into feminism by examining masculinities, could see JacylnF as hostile towards men. I can definitely see how a man reading that might feel unwelcome and that feminism might not be the movement for him.

But let’s look at it from my perspective. I have been an active participant in the feminist blogsphere since 2005, but have been a reader since the early 2000s. I have seen multiple threads on women’s issues — especially ones that are trying to talk about the impact of rape and other sexual violence against women — devolve into nothing more than justifying to MRA’s, trolls, and other (generally male) posters why the conversation should be allowed to remain about women’s experiences. It was to the point that on my (heavily moderated) blog, I still had to write a disclaimer on the top of my post on women and equality that the post wasn’t about men because practically every other comment I was getting was saying how unfair it was that I didn’t talk about men. The phenomenon is so common that I co-authored a jurisimprudence law called "The “What About the Mens?” Phallusy * because I felt like you couldn’t even mention the word “rape” without attracting people demanding that you talk about men getting raped.

So I completely understand why JacylnF and other feminists have no patience for even the well intentioned WATM comments because, frankly, I don’t have patience for them either. One thing I always try to impress upon the curious non-feminists who find my blog is that it isn’t about just one comment, but rather about a long and continuing history of WATM comments preventing meaningful discussion on women’s issues. It’s also worth mentioning that, because of how many concern trolls feminist sites get, it’s really hard to tell who’s trying to argue in good faith and who isn’t.

How to avoid getting zinged for a PHMT argument

So the question remains: what can be done to prevent arguments over PHMT issues?

The first, and easiest, step is to be mindful of the venue. In order to help facilitate this, it is useful to consider questions such as the following: What conversation is happening? Will discussing a male perspective/experience add something, or will it be seen as disruptive? Is there a more appropriate place to discuss my issues?

If you feel that the present discussion topic is broad enough so as to welcome discussions from a male-based perspective, then please consider the following advice [emphasis mine]:

Quote:
1) Understand that if lots of women say something is important, it is. Your opinion, as a man, about the extent and nature of the problem is not valuable when the specific problem pertains to women’s experience. [...]

2) Always consider the distinction between a class and individual members of a class. If you don’t care about this, and when conversations about class-based oppression you come up with examples of weaker members of the dominant class and more powerful members of the subordinate class, you look an awful lot like someone who doesn’t care about justice. Michael Jordan is better off than me. This indicates precisely nothing about the importance of racism in our society. [...]

3) When you tell us about the male perspective on the issue (“Men don’t intend it this way!” “Men feel weak in relation to women!”) consider that we already understand. And then consider that the reason it looks to you like the male perspective is being excluded or misunderstood is that we’re actually talking about ourselves, and the effect your actions have on us. Further, you function as part of a larger system, and your introspection about your intent doesn’t tell you much about how.

4) Try to pay attention to what’s actually being said. Before you respond to something, think hard about what their actual point is and whether you understand it. If you don’t understand it, ask questions. [...]

5) Do not draw up a bunch of hierarchies about which form of oppression is worse than which other. When you do this, you’re not responding to a claim that what we experience is the worst thing ever; you just show up and start talking about why what the women say they experience is not as big of a deal as X, Y, or Z. [...] Being a woman, no matter what demographic you come from, is an overwhelmingly structuring and determining aspect of your life. In some ways it functions differently depending on your demographic, and in other ways there are striking commonalities, but in no sense is it dominated by other inequalities. Being a woman magnifies the effects of all those inequalities.
[Tia (Unfogged): An Uncongenial Post]


Lastly, I would highly recommend reading up on male privilege, with special attention paid to what the role is for a privileged person entering the space of a non-privileged group (I recommend starting with these two posts:A Deeper Look at “Minority Spaces” and “Check my what?” On privilege and what we can do about it). Oh, and don’t forget to check out the Related Reading section below.

Ultimately it is possible for men to both participate in feminist discussion and have meaningful conversations with feminists about men’s issues. It just takes some understanding of the issues in order to be able to find the right times and places for those conversations to happen.



whirlingmind
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13 Apr 2013, 8:37 pm

Matt62 wrote:
On the other hand, remember that we males are visual creatures. Its just an instinct to look.


errm...I am a visual thinker, and very much an appreciator of all beautiful things, however, I don't go around staring fixatedly on mens' lunchboxes. 8O

It sounds as if you may have had a lot of confusion about giving those types of looks to women, and not realised how inappropriate it was (although NT men don't seem to either!) and you are comparing it to your own experiences because you have an embarrassment about having done it. I don't think a sexually aggressive female (I'm presuming you mean females that came to talk to you and made it obvious they were "up for it") that you might encounter on a very odd occasion, is the same as those men that are constantly perving.


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MjrMajorMajor
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13 Apr 2013, 9:08 pm

There's a vast difference between an admiring glance, and an invasive leer. It's just being aware and human to notice others on a physical level sometimes. Where it becomes inappropriate is when there's no discretion involved, or it becomes overly lingering and gratuitous. No matter what you might be wearing(within reason), that's where it crosses the boundaries into creepy and objectifying.
That said, I don't think we should villify men for something that's just human nature. Women are checking men out also, so the conversation here feels a bit one sided.



Innerpeace
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14 Apr 2013, 2:23 pm

Matt62 wrote:
Well, I think I obviously have given females the wrong impression in many ways. It really hurt me to be called a creep in my first year in college by girls who did not know me at all.
On the other hand, later in college, I encountered a few really, really sexually aggressive females. Every man's dream? Heck, I thought so before it happened myself. However, it freaked me out in Real Life.
I cannot win.
The second situation was extremely uncomfortable since I had no real idea what to say or do.
I aso find people who compliment me somewhat suspect, never been real comfortable with it.

Sincerely,
Matthew
PS.
On the other hand, remember that we males are visual creatures. Its just an instinct to look.
However, I do not stare at people since eye contact can be a hassle.


That reminds me of when gay men have come onto me in quite a forward way which I found a bit unsettling. It made me think of how much women must get that treatment and easily become worn down by it.