New Xbox is called Xbox One, airing live right now.

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Bataar
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15 Jun 2013, 12:47 am

Misery wrote:
I could accept that if it wasnt for the fact that my PC (and all sorts of other PCs) already do this.... and dont have goofy issues. Prices tend to be DRAMATICALLY lower for high-quality games, there's a much better selection, there's rarely any restrictions, and if there are it's generally either an MMO, or based on where you buy it from (such as Steam). And even something like Steam MORE than makes up for the (extremely unintrusive) DRM by having those dramatic sales ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

For one thing, I'm not comparing this to PC gaming, as I consider PC and console gaming two different animals. I'm comparing this pretty much only to the PS4. Secondly, with being able to buy all games digitally as well as disc based, there will be digital sales. They probably won't be as big as steam, but they will happen. You'll have the choice to buy the disc or digitally download a game anytime you want. This will be a first for consoles.

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Many similar things can be said about the PS4, the direct competitor to the Xbox One. Yet it does not have tons of nonsensical restrictions and will be able to be played ANYWHERE. Oh, I'm sure there will BE some online-only specific games for it, but that's the thing; it's game specific, not tied to the ENTIRE CONSOLE AND LITERALLY EVERYTHING ON IT. The Wii U can say the same things as well. So it's not just PCs.... it's the other competing consoles that are evidence that those... cough... "features".... are not needed.

PS4 does not have the same restrictions because it cannot do the same things. You will not be able to play all of your games on another PS4 unless you bring all of your games with you. PS4 cloud services won't even be available at launch.

Quote:
And things like the anti-used game restriction? No. Just no. There's no justifying that one. It's like they're saying "We want as few people to buy this thing as conceivably possible". These restrictions actually make it IMPOSSIBLE for some consumers to own one of these. The online-only thing? Yeah; lots of players CANT go online. The numbers for that one are much larger than you might think. They use the 360, and other consoles, offline. And that's totally okay... or at least it was, until this thing appeared. Those people literally CANNOT buy into this one, regardless of the actual game choices involved. And beyond that, there's alot of gamers that RELY on the lower prices of used products because they simply cannot afford to do otherwise. I know many people in this exact situation. One particular friend of his only even owns the 360 or PS3 because they were outright GIVEN to him; for the games, he HAS to buy used stuff only because he just cant afford to spend more than that on these. And he aint the only one. Used games are important for a reason.

It's actually easy to justify as these features wouldn't be available without this restriction. If it could play all used games, then full game installs and playing without the disc would be impossible. Playing all of your games on any console at any time would be impossible. Microsoft is moving towards digital distribution. It works for PC gaming, it works for movies, it works for music. Yes, it can and will work for console gaming. It's the way of the future. There is nothing you or I or anyone can do to stop it. It's going to happen. Sony will eventually be fully onboard with digital distribution. It will be more convenient and less expensive. Kudos to Microsoft for taking the lead in moving console gaming in that direction. Your friend will be able to buy games digitally for cheaper. Think about it, on Steam you get a game for the true cost of the game, $5 - $30. On a console you have to pay for that PLUS any additional licenses for when you sell / trade / borrow / etc. If the developer / publisher can't get it on additional licenses (like steam), then they charge the first person more, hence the prices of $60.

As to the always online thing, Microsoft's current plan is basically you're screwed after 24 hours. Yeah, I know, it kind of sucks. I believe they will probably revisit the length of time period and/or find a different way to "call in" to ensure you haven't sold your license to Gamestop or something. Unfortunately, there is no plan YET. I'm hoping they change it, but who knows. Yes, if the internet goes out you're screwed for single player games. Again, that's the plan of record but I expect it to change after the E3 mess.



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15 Jun 2013, 1:27 am

You know what? I don't care that I can play my game at a friend's house without the disk... I don't want all of my bandwidth going to cloud computing and storage...

I want my games... on my disks... if I go to a friend's house... THEN I TAKE MY DISKS... kind of like I do now.

The share with your family thing... that's AWESOME... until they announce only one person at a time can play because you have one license and then you can't access your game because someone in your family is playing it.

You said you weren't going to compare PC and console gaming, but you did... in the most important part. Digital distribution works... for some applications... But the console market has rarely been it. If you look at the model now... after a while, you can order it digitally, but no one is paying full price for a game that may not be available to play if the PS network or xbox live is down.

The bandwidth requirements on this thing are ridiculous... and frankly... Most people don't realize that their ISP has a data cap on their account... So eventually, it's going to be impossible for a lot of people to play...

All around... when you look worse than EA games... you've done something wrong


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Bataar
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15 Jun 2013, 4:37 am

Feralucce wrote:
You know what? I don't care that I can play my game at a friend's house without the disk... I don't want all of my bandwidth going to cloud computing and storage...

I want my games... on my disks... if I go to a friend's house... THEN I TAKE MY DISKS... kind of like I do now.

Did you feel the same way when Netflix, Hulu, and other streaming services started taking over movies on DVD? What about when iTunes and other digital stores started replacing music on CDs? What's the difference? When a new game comes out, would you rather have to go to Gamestop and pick it up, order it on Amazon and pay/wait for shipping or just download the thing for probably less money?

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The share with your family thing... that's AWESOME... until they announce only one person at a time can play because you have one license and then you can't access your game because someone in your family is playing it.

But somehow that's worse than actually lending a disc to your friend so he could borrow it? How do you access the game when you have the disc loaned out? Microsoft's way seems way better.

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You said you weren't going to compare PC and console gaming, but you did... in the most important part. Digital distribution works... for some applications... But the console market has rarely been it. If you look at the model now... after a while, you can order it digitally, but no one is paying full price for a game that may not be available to play if the PS network or xbox live is down.

I don't get your point here. If a game is dependent on Xbox Live or PSN, it doesn't matter if you download it or buy the disc. It still won't work regardless.

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The bandwidth requirements on this thing are ridiculous... and frankly... Most people don't realize that their ISP has a data cap on their account... So eventually, it's going to be impossible for a lot of people to play...

If someone is downloading many, many games a month, then yes, that could be a problem. However, if a person can afford that, they can probably afford the over fee that the ISP charges. If you're getting that many games, you could always get the disc version as well. This is essentially a non-issue at all.

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All around... when you look worse than EA games... you've done something wrong

Granted, MS has a PR/marketing problem (nothing new there) but that doesn't change the benefits this console provides.



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15 Jun 2013, 9:07 am

Bataar wrote:
Granted, MS has a PR/marketing problem (nothing new there) but that doesn't change the benefits this console provides.
Xbox One benefits other platforms don't have :
-You can save 3 seconds to switch from playing games to tv.µ
-You can lend games without having to give the physical copy.

That's it. Everything else about the console SUCKS.



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15 Jun 2013, 10:04 am

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Granted, MS has a PR/marketing problem (nothing new there) but that doesn't change the benefits this console provides.


I think their PR problem is connected to the obnoxiousness of requiring Kinect/online check-in. There is literally no way to explain those two things in a context beneficial to the consumer. Why should internet be required for single player games?



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15 Jun 2013, 10:20 am

Bataar wrote:
Misery wrote:
I could accept that if it wasnt for the fact that my PC (and all sorts of other PCs) already do this.... and dont have goofy issues. Prices tend to be DRAMATICALLY lower for high-quality games, there's a much better selection, there's rarely any restrictions, and if there are it's generally either an MMO, or based on where you buy it from (such as Steam). And even something like Steam MORE than makes up for the (extremely unintrusive) DRM by having those dramatic sales ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

For one thing, I'm not comparing this to PC gaming, as I consider PC and console gaming two different animals. I'm comparing this pretty much only to the PS4. Secondly, with being able to buy all games digitally as well as disc based, there will be digital sales. They probably won't be as big as steam, but they will happen. You'll have the choice to buy the disc or digitally download a game anytime you want. This will be a first for consoles.

Quote:
Many similar things can be said about the PS4, the direct competitor to the Xbox One. Yet it does not have tons of nonsensical restrictions and will be able to be played ANYWHERE. Oh, I'm sure there will BE some online-only specific games for it, but that's the thing; it's game specific, not tied to the ENTIRE CONSOLE AND LITERALLY EVERYTHING ON IT. The Wii U can say the same things as well. So it's not just PCs.... it's the other competing consoles that are evidence that those... cough... "features".... are not needed.

PS4 does not have the same restrictions because it cannot do the same things. You will not be able to play all of your games on another PS4 unless you bring all of your games with you. PS4 cloud services won't even be available at launch.

Quote:
And things like the anti-used game restriction? No. Just no. There's no justifying that one. It's like they're saying "We want as few people to buy this thing as conceivably possible". These restrictions actually make it IMPOSSIBLE for some consumers to own one of these. The online-only thing? Yeah; lots of players CANT go online. The numbers for that one are much larger than you might think. They use the 360, and other consoles, offline. And that's totally okay... or at least it was, until this thing appeared. Those people literally CANNOT buy into this one, regardless of the actual game choices involved. And beyond that, there's alot of gamers that RELY on the lower prices of used products because they simply cannot afford to do otherwise. I know many people in this exact situation. One particular friend of his only even owns the 360 or PS3 because they were outright GIVEN to him; for the games, he HAS to buy used stuff only because he just cant afford to spend more than that on these. And he aint the only one. Used games are important for a reason.

It's actually easy to justify as these features wouldn't be available without this restriction. If it could play all used games, then full game installs and playing without the disc would be impossible. Playing all of your games on any console at any time would be impossible. Microsoft is moving towards digital distribution. It works for PC gaming, it works for movies, it works for music. Yes, it can and will work for console gaming. It's the way of the future. There is nothing you or I or anyone can do to stop it. It's going to happen. Sony will eventually be fully onboard with digital distribution. It will be more convenient and less expensive. Kudos to Microsoft for taking the lead in moving console gaming in that direction. Your friend will be able to buy games digitally for cheaper. Think about it, on Steam you get a game for the true cost of the game, $5 - $30. On a console you have to pay for that PLUS any additional licenses for when you sell / trade / borrow / etc. If the developer / publisher can't get it on additional licenses (like steam), then they charge the first person more, hence the prices of $60.

As to the always online thing, Microsoft's current plan is basically you're screwed after 24 hours. Yeah, I know, it kind of sucks. I believe they will probably revisit the length of time period and/or find a different way to "call in" to ensure you haven't sold your license to Gamestop or something. Unfortunately, there is no plan YET. I'm hoping they change it, but who knows. Yes, if the internet goes out you're screwed for single player games. Again, that's the plan of record but I expect it to change after the E3 mess.



Oh I'm not AGAINST digital distribution. Hell, I'm all for it. I dont buy physical discs unless I absolutely have to. Hell, I've got some 150-ish games on Steam, and I check it every day, knowing that ANYTHING could end up on sale. Hell, I got Rome: Total War AND it's expansion for ONE DOLLAR. ......ONE DOLLAR! That.... is amazing. So yeah.... I'm entirely a fan of digital distribution.

But here's the thing about that: Things like Steam? Those actually ARE digital distribution. What Microsoft is doing IS NOT.

If MS *really* wanted to encourage that, what they would do is make Xbox Live, and more specifically, purchasing games from Xbox Live, more attractive. Offer more deals. Make sure every retail game is available on there as well, AND give BENEFITS if you buy the digital version instead (but do NOT put NEGATIVES on the physical version, for the love of kittens!). Give discounts if you buy alot of stuff on there. Make the store more attractive and easy to use. Lower the prices. AKA, do lots of the things that Steam and others do. BUT. They need to do these things.... WITHOUT putting negatives onto the physical side. Leave the physical stuff totally alone.... change nothing..... but continue to make the DIGITAL stuff that much more attractive. Do this, and you WILL convert people over time.

Instead, what they're ACTUALLY doing is taking PHYSICAL distribution.... still using it.... but then placing upon it the restrictions that are meant for DIGITAL. This is a no-no, and a fantastically stupid idea. Like I said: Digital distribution is fine. My problem with this whole situation was never about that. My problem.... and the problem that a huge number of players have.... is that they are doing this crap with actual, physical retail copies. This is not digital distribution, and it's not them "taking the lead". It's them tripping over their own egos and making their playerbase stumble over their fallen, bloated form while Sony just keeps moving.

And what makes it worse, they're doing this with a playerbase that simply isnt used to any of this. Like the idea of installations. Sure, that's all well and good.... but you'd be surprised at how many gamers there are that DONT want to do this, even when they have lots of space. I've heard it time and time again from gamers in my area, as well as on the Net, that they haaaaaaaaaaaaate installing games that exist in disc form, because it takes up space; wether or not they actually NEED the space right now is utterly (and illogically) irrelevant. They dont want to do it. They want to stick a disc in, and just have it work. They dont wanna use the space, they dont wanna wait through the install, they dont wanna have to deal with that stuff. Stick it in, run game, done.... that's what many of them often want. *I* know the benefit of installations.... you also seem to know the benefit of installations. They can be a good thing. But they're just not easy for many consumers to understand, and you do not just shove things like that into the consumer's face, EXPECTING them to just automatically follow your way.

When you're trying to introduce a new idea to a consumer group, the number one thing you do NOT do is just forcibly punt them into a lake filled with piranhas by MAKING them do all of these things suddenly, not even offering the option. Particularly when you have direct competitors. Microsoft isnt offering them the option..... so Sony makes sure to REALLY EMPHASIZE that *they* are offering the option. Hell, the fact that Sony... or anyone, it doesnt even have to be them... can do all of these things WITHOUT the bloody stupid restrictions and crap is proof enough that Microsoft is going about it in totally the wrong way. The way to introduce things like this is to give the consumers options. Tell them... "ok. We have these ways of doing it. If you really like the old way, and would like to continue using it? Hey! That's totally okay! We'll totally accept that! But here we've also got this NEW way, and look at these shiny things I'm going to add to it.... you just switch on over if you ever feel like it, and hey, we'll add another bonus to it." That is the right sort of way to do it. You work WITH the consumer.... you dont work against them, and you dont try to force their hand. You make it as easy as possible for the consumer to use.... and thus BUY.... your product. And right there, is where MS is starting to fall pretty badly. And this stuff doesnt just apply to this industry, mind you. This sort of thing, these ideas related to consumers and selling and stuff, they're important ideas in ANY industry. MS, by now, should KNOW this. It should be practically burned into their minds, after all the time they've had as a company to learn it. Instead? They're going against alot of core ideas here.... and it's not working out very well for them. There's already been plenty of permanent converts, players that have now decided to save up and buy a PS4 instead of the new Xbox that they originally planned. And there will be more.


And note, as I say all of this, I'm NOT a Sony fan. I actually rather dislike all of the Big Three pretty much equally. If anything, I actually have more to do with Microsoft than the other two because of using their various products in the PC realm, and NORMALLY, I have nothing against them, other than that vague dislike that I tend to have towards damn near everything. So this isnt fanboyism speaking. But I do know alot about good and bad business practices, and the ways to properly make sales happen, and various related or similar topics. And I watch MS do these things, and I see the totally-expected angry fan reaction, and I keep wondering... HOW did these dolts NOT see that that was going to be the result, and WHY did they choose such an obvious mistake of a tactic to begin with?

It doesnt so much bug me even because it's "bad". *I* am not buying the horrid thing, or any of the consoles, after all. It bugs me because it's so bloody stupid.


....at least it's making for interesting conversation though, I'll give it that much :D



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15 Jun 2013, 11:32 am

Bataar wrote:
But somehow that's worse than actually lending a disc to your friend so he could borrow it? How do you access the game when you have the disc loaned out? Microsoft's way seems way better.

If I loaned it out...I KNEW that I had done so and as such...I am not expecting it to be in use. It does not seem better to be surprised by the fact that one of ten family members (anywhere in the world) may be using it at that time.

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I don't get your point here. If a game is dependent on Xbox Live or PSN, it doesn't matter if you download it or buy the disc. It still won't work regardless.

Really? go do some research at the number of times that games have been pulled from the PSN and people who paid for them were no longer able to play them, even though they were installed... it's happened to me a couple times.

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If someone is downloading many, many games a month, then yes, that could be a problem. However, if a person can afford that, they can probably afford the over fee that the ISP charges. If you're getting that many games, you could always get the disc version as well. This is essentially a non-issue at all.

This is where you are wrong. Cox, comcast and several of the other LARGE ISPs have instituted caps that are pathetic. one of the best ratios is Cox. On their highest end residential package, they have a cap of 400gb per month. Think about that. The games are on 50gb blu ray disks. If you look at THIS generation's games, most games are maxing out disc space on BOTH consoles. That's 8 games. Add in your standard internet usage, your family's netflix usage... and it goes away pretty fast. Citation: http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/how-muc ... doe-136401

In my household (four adults, two special needs, two not.... all watching netflix for a couple hours a day), without any downloads (we actually organized this with neighbors, all download and gaming services were shared on a different connection for the month)... we used 1200 gb of bandwidth. After research into polls, we are pretty average for the modern info-connected family... The only reason we don't get shut off is because I have a business account which doesn't cap my internet.

Quote:
Granted, MS has a PR/marketing problem (nothing new there) but that doesn't change the benefits this console provides.

At this point, since the tech is unproven, I don't see any benefits... only claims... and not one of those claims is practical in the USA since the US, internet wise, is a third world country.


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15 Jun 2013, 12:42 pm

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/06/12/g ... -microsoft

^ That's gonna leave a mark, I'm sure...


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16 Jun 2013, 3:08 pm

Wow, it seems there are still misunderstandings to Microsoft's policies. Here's a good article that explains everything:
http://www.wpcentral.com/lets-talk-xbox-drm

Article hightlights:
"Let’s talk about “step one” – buying content. You will be able to buy a video game on Xbox One, physically or virtually, on the same day. Want to jump onto the “no physical media” bandwagon – go for it! Still want to buy discs and display your favorite titles on your shelf – that is cool also.

Even if you choose to buy a physical copy of the game, once installed, no discs are required. All of the content you buy will be linked to the Xbox cloud in addition to being stored on your console. Scratch that game disc and afraid you will never be able to play it again – that was the past!"

"Now, let’s talk about reselling your disc games and trading with friends. You will still be able to trade in your games at participating retailers. In addition, Microsoft won’t be charging any fees to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of games. Enjoy playing that game and then head to a store to trade it in for something else – reselling is not dead.

The new collection of DRM rules and restrictions attempts to allow friends and family to enjoy each other’s content while ensuring developers get paid. I know a lot of you like to think of game publishers and developers as “the man”, but truth is – the team of programmers and artists working on your favorite titles are trying to put food on their own family’s tables.

Take a second and step back from your viewpoint, if you work on a video game for years and then one bloke pays $50 for it and shares it with half a dozen friends – is that really fair? Sure, it makes life easy for you, but aren’t you slapping your favorite developers in the face at the same time? Xbox One allows you to still play your game with your friends and even completely give it to your best friend later, while allowing developers and publishers to get paid for their content."



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16 Jun 2013, 8:00 pm

Bataar wrote:
Wow, it seems there are still misunderstandings to Microsoft's policies. Here's a good article that explains everything:
http://www.wpcentral.com/lets-talk-xbox-drm

Article hightlights:
"Let’s talk about “step one” – buying content. You will be able to buy a video game on Xbox One, physically or virtually, on the same day. Want to jump onto the “no physical media” bandwagon – go for it! Still want to buy discs and display your favorite titles on your shelf – that is cool also.

Even if you choose to buy a physical copy of the game, once installed, no discs are required. All of the content you buy will be linked to the Xbox cloud in addition to being stored on your console. Scratch that game disc and afraid you will never be able to play it again – that was the past!"

"Now, let’s talk about reselling your disc games and trading with friends. You will still be able to trade in your games at participating retailers. In addition, Microsoft won’t be charging any fees to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of games. Enjoy playing that game and then head to a store to trade it in for something else – reselling is not dead.

The new collection of DRM rules and restrictions attempts to allow friends and family to enjoy each other’s content while ensuring developers get paid. I know a lot of you like to think of game publishers and developers as “the man”, but truth is – the team of programmers and artists working on your favorite titles are trying to put food on their own family’s tables.

Take a second and step back from your viewpoint, if you work on a video game for years and then one bloke pays $50 for it and shares it with half a dozen friends – is that really fair? Sure, it makes life easy for you, but aren’t you slapping your favorite developers in the face at the same time? Xbox One allows you to still play your game with your friends and even completely give it to your best friend later, while allowing developers and publishers to get paid for their content."



As the whole trade-in / renting / whatever goes.... THIS is the problem:

"In our role as a game publisher, Microsoft Studios will enable you to give your games to friends or trade in your Xbox One games at participating retailers. Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers. Microsoft does not receive any compensation as part of this. In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends. Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners."

That taken from here:

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license

Their official statements are often saying that they themselves are not putting the restrictions on trade-ins and such..... but the small print points out that while THEY arent doing it, they opened it up for the actual publishers to do it. This was already known, and is one of the things people are so angry about. Players dont want *any* restrictions on that, from ANYONE. Someone goes to trade in a game at a Gamestop or whatever, so they can buy something new, and find out they cant simply because EA or Activision or whoever decided so? Yeah. Not good. This one is more akin to MS trying to place the blame on others, while still getting away with it. And three guesses what most publishers will decide on this one.

Microsoft has done some funky backpedaling on this whole thing in the last few days, but I've noticed that it's been VERY carefully worded. Hell, that bit up there took me a bit of time to find; I found it mostly because I already knew about it.

Another one from them:

"Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners".

Ok, whoa. No. Here is how loaning is supposed to work: You and a friend are together, your friend holds out his/her hand, and you place the game disc in his/her hand. BAM. Game loaned. "Wont be available"? No. That means there is going to be some sort of PROCESS to it.... and that's not a good sign. Think about it: Why even PUT a process on something so simple as that? Particularly when you KNOW it's going to piss off your userbase? The ONLY reason to do this is if you get something out of it. What that something is, I'm not sure. But you can bet it isnt good for the consumer, because there's literally no benefit whatsoever to adding complications to something so simple. And that "cloud" bit doesnt count.

They can drench their words in honey as much as they want (and boy are they ever trying to do so), but that simply doesnt stop the problems from existing. Unfortunately for them, alot of gamers are actually bothering to read the "fine print", and this is causing them some trouble.

And heck, even their blasted excuses dont make sense:

"Take a second and step back from your viewpoint, if you work on a video game for years and then one bloke pays $50 for it and shares it with half a dozen friends – is that really fair? Sure, it makes life easy for you, but aren’t you slapping your favorite developers in the face at the same time? Xbox One allows you to still play your game with your friends and even completely give it to your best friend later, while allowing developers and publishers to get paid for their content."

Yes, actually, it IS fair. THINK about it. This is how pretty much every other type of product in the history of ever works. You can do this with DVDs. You can do this with books. You can do this with freaking cars (which are huge and freakishly expensive!). If you've BOUGHT a product, you should be able to do that sort of thing, so long as you are not engaged in the act of copying or piracy or stuff of that nature with it. But sharing it with friends? Those publishers have no right to complain about that one. The game industry has gotten along just fine WITH that idea in place, and developers/publishers have often been quite profitable indeed, some of them growing into absolute giants, even despite these *cough* "unfair" practices by their consumers. If a developer/publisher is having money issues.... SPEND LESS ON THE BLOODY DEVELOPMENT. Or make less idiotic business decisions. For most though, that simply isnt the case. It's just a matter of greed.



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16 Jun 2013, 9:15 pm

Misery wrote:
Ok, whoa. No. Here is how loaning is supposed to work: You and a friend are together, your friend holds out his/her hand, and you place the game disc in his/her hand. BAM. Game loaned. "Wont be available"? No. That means there is going to be some sort of PROCESS to it.... and that's not a good sign. Think about it: Why even PUT a process on something so simple as that? Particularly when you KNOW it's going to piss off your userbase? The ONLY reason to do this is if you get something out of it. What that something is, I'm not sure. But you can bet it isnt good for the consumer, because there's literally no benefit whatsoever to adding complications to something so simple. And that "cloud" bit doesnt count.

How else could you play without the disc without this kind of restriction? If that weren't in place, I could buy a game, install it and then lend you the disc and you could install it and play it all you want and then you could lend the disc to someone and they could play it all they want, etc etc. If your transitioning to a disc-less / digital only media, this is about the only way you can do it. Instead, Microsoft has implemented a system where, if you're one of the people I've selected, you can access my games at anytime from any system. It will be better than lending you the disc because it will be instantaneous and I won't have to worry about you losing or damaging the disc. I mean seriously, there are fewer restrictions with this than there is with Steam.



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17 Jun 2013, 12:12 am

"Even less restrictions than steam!" :lol: Yeah, if you buy a console and a game, you MIGHT be able to play it...So much for the "console advantage"
All concerns about privacy and DRM aside, requiring would-be consumers to spring for Kinect2 and Xbox live is a bit like if Nintendo had REQUIRED the purchase of a "Power Glove" or "Power Pad" by their victims-errr, customers, in order for their game box to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlkO-x6jANo



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17 Jun 2013, 12:17 am

Bataar wrote:
Misery wrote:
Ok, whoa. No. Here is how loaning is supposed to work: You and a friend are together, your friend holds out his/her hand, and you place the game disc in his/her hand. BAM. Game loaned. "Wont be available"? No. That means there is going to be some sort of PROCESS to it.... and that's not a good sign. Think about it: Why even PUT a process on something so simple as that? Particularly when you KNOW it's going to piss off your userbase? The ONLY reason to do this is if you get something out of it. What that something is, I'm not sure. But you can bet it isnt good for the consumer, because there's literally no benefit whatsoever to adding complications to something so simple. And that "cloud" bit doesnt count.

How else could you play without the disc without this kind of restriction? If that weren't in place, I could buy a game, install it and then lend you the disc and you could install it and play it all you want and then you could lend the disc to someone and they could play it all they want, etc etc. If your transitioning to a disc-less / digital only media, this is about the only way you can do it. Instead, Microsoft has implemented a system where, if you're one of the people I've selected, you can access my games at anytime from any system. It will be better than lending you the disc because it will be instantaneous and I won't have to worry about you losing or damaging the disc. I mean seriously, there are fewer restrictions with this than there is with Steam.



Actually, if you look at their licensing explanation page (which I believe was linked to in an earlier post on here), what it ACTUALLY says about that '10 chosen people" bit is that they're all "family members". They use the word "family" in there multiple times. You can bet that there WILL be some way of checking this, to make sure they are indeed legitimate family members. THINK about it: What company would be bloody stupid enough to instigate a system that essentially causes any purchased product to then burst into up to 10 free copies for you to then give away? Because that's what that type of access means when it comes to digital stuffs; it's essentially creating and then handing out free extra copies. You better believe THAT one would REALLY damage sales (and BADLY) if that was truly the case. Not to mention, that they've already rambled on about making sure that the publisher gets "their fair share". You think the PUBLISHERS would agree to a system that works with that freedom? Yeah. I dont think so. Actual family members ONLY.

And none of that excuses the simple fact that it shuts down the usual way of trading.

And beyond THAT, it would seem there's some very strange restrictions/small-print on the whole "people on my list access my games" bit.

Oh and yes.... then there's their "Share access to your games with everyone inside your home!" thing. It actually took awhile for the central issue with that one to register with me, so carefully was it worded. That whole thing where "anyone in your family/household can access any games!! ! This is a FEATURE!!!111" bit..... yeah. See, here's the thing..... literally every console... ALL of them.... that has ever been made.... has been able to do this. Here's how it works: Say I've got a console in my room, right? I've got some games on it. My brother, see, he wants to try some of them. So there's this special process that we use to make this happen; I move out of the way, and he sits down, and I give him the controller.... and, by some miracle, he is now able to play my games! If you want to get into the really ADVANCED bits of this, he could simply grab the console and it's 2 main cables... and MOVE them to his room for awhile! Mind-blowing, aint it? And heck; if he's got his own console? WHOA.... I hand him.... THE DISC. And he takes it and plays it. And. AND. This even works.... if it's not a family member, if maybe it's a guest or something. Wow. (and could I possibly put any more sarcasm into that? WE'LL NEVER KNOW)

Sarcastic and exaggerated, sure, but that's similar to Microsoft's own portrayal of a similar yet more complicated version of that process. And that's the thing.... that's ALL it is. It's the same damn idea, but they've worded it so that they could include it as an "important" bullet point for their device, likely because they didnt have enough good ones yet. And even then.... how often is this going to happen with multiple consoles in the same house? This is a very expensive device, that comes with OTHER expenses as well. Do you really think the majority of gamers are going to be able to afford MULTIPLES of this thing? Quite a ton of them will have trouble paying for just ONE. Those that CAN afford it (and have actual reason to then buy more than one) are pretty rare, particularly with the economy being the way it is. In other words... for most, this "feature" will mean literally nothing.


But instead of me rambling, there's a muuuuuch better way to explain all of the points that make this thing such a bad move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryB-hdtpQRw

Angry Joe basically explaining (ranting about) the problems with the console. The value of the video is that he goes into extreme detail on WHY each bit of this is a problem. And comes up with some points that many may not have even thought of or realized yet. And he isnt someone that does this sort of thing without research, he actually does the legwork necessary and makes sure to read enough material to fully understand what's going on whenever possible. His video here is so far the best that I've seen explaining these problems. Even if he is darned angry about it, but then, if he WASNT displaying anger, he'd get a whole bunch of complaints about THAT since that's the persona he puts forth in all of his work.



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17 Jun 2013, 12:18 am

Bataar wrote:
Wow, it seems there are still misunderstandings to Microsoft's policies. Here's a good article that explains everything:
http://www.wpcentral.com/lets-talk-xbox-drm

Article hightlights:
"Let’s talk about “step one” – buying content. You will be able to buy a video game on Xbox One, physically or virtually, on the same day. Want to jump onto the “no physical media” bandwagon – go for it! Still want to buy discs and display your favorite titles on your shelf – that is cool also.

Even if you choose to buy a physical copy of the game, once installed, no discs are required. All of the content you buy will be linked to the Xbox cloud in addition to being stored on your console. Scratch that game disc and afraid you will never be able to play it again – that was the past!"

"Now, let’s talk about reselling your disc games and trading with friends. You will still be able to trade in your games at participating retailers. In addition, Microsoft won’t be charging any fees to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of games. Enjoy playing that game and then head to a store to trade it in for something else – reselling is not dead.

The new collection of DRM rules and restrictions attempts to allow friends and family to enjoy each other’s content while ensuring developers get paid. I know a lot of you like to think of game publishers and developers as “the man”, but truth is – the team of programmers and artists working on your favorite titles are trying to put food on their own family’s tables.

Take a second and step back from your viewpoint, if you work on a video game for years and then one bloke pays $50 for it and shares it with half a dozen friends – is that really fair? Sure, it makes life easy for you, but aren’t you slapping your favorite developers in the face at the same time? Xbox One allows you to still play your game with your friends and even completely give it to your best friend later, while allowing developers and publishers to get paid for their content."


Nope... there were no misunderstandings... we are talking logical outcroppings of the very same things.


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17 Jun 2013, 12:50 am

staremaster wrote:
"Even less restrictions than steam!" :lol: Yeah, if you buy a console and a game, you MIGHT be able to play it...So much for the "console advantage"
All concerns about privacy and DRM aside, requiring would-be consumers to spring for Kinect2 and Xbox live is a bit like if Nintendo had REQUIRED the purchase of a "Power Glove" or "Power Pad" by their victims-errr, customers, in order for their game box to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlkO-x6jANo

How do you lend a game you purchased on Steam to a friend?



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17 Jun 2013, 12:59 am

Bataar wrote:
staremaster wrote:
"Even less restrictions than steam!" :lol: Yeah, if you buy a console and a game, you MIGHT be able to play it...So much for the "console advantage"
All concerns about privacy and DRM aside, requiring would-be consumers to spring for Kinect2 and Xbox live is a bit like if Nintendo had REQUIRED the purchase of a "Power Glove" or "Power Pad" by their victims-errr, customers, in order for their game box to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlkO-x6jANo

How do you lend a game you purchased on Steam to a friend?


I think you have to "Gift" it? Am I correct? Also, my understanding of Steam is that SP games function offline, and and games in general frequently cost less than sixty dollars.